What constitutes probable cause?
- Thread starter Strakele
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Opinion from driving a black & white around for a couple decades:
Most cops are good decent people, a very few are "bad apples".
Most people can't admit they are/were doing something wrong. It's an officer's job to point out you were wrong...people don't like that.
If you don't want the wrong type of attention from the police, don't stick out in a crowd. Biker types, gang banger types, grunge types, gothic types, (you get the idea) all draw attention. And to the op, wearing bullets, razor blades, ect fall into this category. I could go on for hours.
If a cop asks, you don't have to let him. Will it raise his suspicion? Bank on it.
Here's a training video most of you should watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65zXlytv01c&feature=related
Most cops are good decent people, a very few are "bad apples".
Most people can't admit they are/were doing something wrong. It's an officer's job to point out you were wrong...people don't like that.
If you don't want the wrong type of attention from the police, don't stick out in a crowd. Biker types, gang banger types, grunge types, gothic types, (you get the idea) all draw attention. And to the op, wearing bullets, razor blades, ect fall into this category. I could go on for hours.
If a cop asks, you don't have to let him. Will it raise his suspicion? Bank on it.
Here's a training video most of you should watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65zXlytv01c&feature=related
graybeard321
Member
Police officers are like everyone else, some good some not. They are not the enemy. You copoperate with them and they will have no reason to give you a hard time.
Blacksmoke
Member
-rcd
I do not know about your state. In New Mexico suspicions raised by a citizen declining to consent to a voluntary search have been held by courts to be an inappropriate basis for an LEO to formulate a Resonable Suspicion resulting in a "Terry Stop" or "Terry Search". That citizen's refusal to submit to a voluntary search TOGETHER with other substantial facts can satisfy the requirements for Reasonable Suspicion and a Terry Search.
I do agree that most police officers are sincere in pursuing their duties. Unfortunately, CNN has broadcast a number of very innapropriate police responses to minor provocations.
Blacksmoke
Member
Blacksmoke
Member
-ilbob
Are you speaking from experience? Are you sure there were not some other facts contributing to that seizure? IF not then you have a claim for illegal seizure. I routinely return from the nearby town where my bank is located with thousands of dollars for payroll. I cannot imagine loosing my car and the cash on the basis you describe.
brighamr
Member
So you're saying I should wear the hair due, clothing, and jewelry that is "socially acceptable" in order to not be suspicious? WOW. I thought in america we have the freedom to choose these things, but apparently our choice can lead to unprovoked suspicion... which can lead to asking to be searched... which can lead to being arrested for whatever the reason you choose.
Thanks for letting us know how cops pick and choose their victims.
Edit: I have cops in my extended family, who are the good kind. But when someone makes a statement about personal freedoms causing suspicion (and no other reason other than what the person looks like), that crosses the line IMO.
zxcvbob
Member
Maybe cuz you are white, have short hair, and you are older than dirt?
(especially the old part. I'm pretty sure that's why cops leave me alone now)
pbearperry
Member
Well I guess the answer is to move out of high crime areas,dye your hair gray and wear regular mainstream clothes?Oh also drive carefully and wear your baseball caps visor in front.
TargetTerror
Member
Even if he did have an FID, they'd probably arrest you for brandishing...
pbearperry
Member
Are you judged by the way you look? Yes,always been that way and always will be.That's the plain truth whether anyone likes it or not.If you wear multi-color hair and have so many piercings that you look like a human fishing lure,you will be perceived as a weirdo moron.However,nobodys kids want to believe that along with my own kids.They had to learn the hard way just like you folks that like to look weird like everyone else.lol
We all watch enough TV to know that just about anything could be probable cause, from did you hear that?, or I thought he was reaching for a gun, I saw the light flicker from a piece of metal, I smelled an odor emulating from the vechicle. Basically the cops do it if they know it's thier word against yours, not all cops, but even the ones who don't do things like that that are forced to go along with the ones who do.
Sage of Seattle
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Whether I have something to hide or not is irrelevant. It's simply a fact that the police need to follow the rules. Wanna see what's in my car? Get a warrant (or the probable cause equivalent). You can ask all you want, but expect a no answer.
You gave him permission and therefore waived your rights.
If you said no you don't want him to search your car when he asked it would have taken more for him to search.
In addition if he had found something, even something you didn't realize was a violation and you had given him permission it would be completely valid in court to prosecute you.
If however he searched it without your permission a good lawyer would have a lot to work with and could easily get things reduced or thrown out in many situations.
By "not wanting to argue" you threw away your rights. Retaining your rights requires having a backbone.
If you said no you don't want him to search your car when he asked it would have taken more for him to search.
In addition if he had found something, even something you didn't realize was a violation and you had given him permission it would be completely valid in court to prosecute you.
If however he searched it without your permission a good lawyer would have a lot to work with and could easily get things reduced or thrown out in many situations.
By "not wanting to argue" you threw away your rights. Retaining your rights requires having a backbone.
Perhaps this will answer your question about what constitutes probable cause:
The Principles of Probable Cause
The Principles of Probable Cause
revjen45
Member
"If you had nothing to hide, there is no reason not to let him search your car."
Not meant as a personal affront to Greybeard, but if that isn't the stupidest thing I have ever heard it's tied for first.
Not meant as a personal affront to Greybeard, but if that isn't the stupidest thing I have ever heard it's tied for first.
KnightHawk67
Member
Anyone remember the coffee can fiasco some time back? Something about coffee cans being used in something to do with drug manufacturing. A LEO-type around here stated he could use that alone to search your vehicle. Needless to say, most people on here thought that was bad. You never know what you might have innocently rolling around in your car that can spark a manhunt on your butt. Always say no!
It doesn't apply here, but what you drive and how you drive it makes a lot of difference when it comes to police attention.
Doing 90mph in a school zone while weaving through traffic and running red lights, at the same time flipping the bird to the cops and having an "Off the Pigs" bumper sticker along with pot signs and a weird paint job just might attract police attention.
If you drive, say, last year's Camry, keep to traffic speeds (not always the speed limit), keep your lights, tires and other equipment in good condition, you may well never be stopped. It never ceases to amaze me that people doing something seriously wrong don't take such basic precautions. One guy was busted with several kilos of horse because his tail lights were out and his driver side door was almost falling off.*
Incidentally, the sight of a speed loader on the center console was held to be probable cause for a search for guns in MD. So it is probably a good idea to keep those speed loaders, magazines, scopes, and even gun magazines of the printed kind out of sight if you are carrying a gun illegally, either on your person or in the car.
*Note that sometimes those traffic stops for light violation or the like are fakes. The cops had a tipoff and knew exactly what was being carried; the "broken tail light" was just an excuse.
Jim
Doing 90mph in a school zone while weaving through traffic and running red lights, at the same time flipping the bird to the cops and having an "Off the Pigs" bumper sticker along with pot signs and a weird paint job just might attract police attention.
If you drive, say, last year's Camry, keep to traffic speeds (not always the speed limit), keep your lights, tires and other equipment in good condition, you may well never be stopped. It never ceases to amaze me that people doing something seriously wrong don't take such basic precautions. One guy was busted with several kilos of horse because his tail lights were out and his driver side door was almost falling off.*
Incidentally, the sight of a speed loader on the center console was held to be probable cause for a search for guns in MD. So it is probably a good idea to keep those speed loaders, magazines, scopes, and even gun magazines of the printed kind out of sight if you are carrying a gun illegally, either on your person or in the car.
*Note that sometimes those traffic stops for light violation or the like are fakes. The cops had a tipoff and knew exactly what was being carried; the "broken tail light" was just an excuse.
Jim
punchdrunk
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Inquirering minds want to know about the knife. fixed? folder? length? Fingernail clippers?
coloradokevin
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jim keenan said:
You aren't kidding either. One of the first lessons that I learned back when I went through FTO was this:
"Crappy people drive crappy cars. Not everyone who drives a crappy car is a crappy person, but almost every crappy person drives a crappy car".
That was the advice of a seasoned and well-respected officer who had more time on the job than I had on the planet!
And, in my career I've found that this simple statement holds very true!
"...and some person called the cops on us."
We have no idea what the nature of the report to the police was, what the history of calls to that location are, what the history of calls to the larger community are, what the history of the OP is, what the history of his family and associates are, and a host of other unknown factors.
Or, whether any of that is relevant at all.
What we do know is that a police officer responded to a call, searched a car having obtained permission to do so, issued a warning concerning an apparent violation of law, and concluded the contact with a warning we don't particularly care for, but which in the grand scheme of things ins't all that harsh and might be laughable by community standards depending on the circumstances.
Next time, as already well noted, politely decline.
We have no idea what the nature of the report to the police was, what the history of calls to that location are, what the history of calls to the larger community are, what the history of the OP is, what the history of his family and associates are, and a host of other unknown factors.
Or, whether any of that is relevant at all.
What we do know is that a police officer responded to a call, searched a car having obtained permission to do so, issued a warning concerning an apparent violation of law, and concluded the contact with a warning we don't particularly care for, but which in the grand scheme of things ins't all that harsh and might be laughable by community standards depending on the circumstances.
Next time, as already well noted, politely decline.
TexasSkyhawk
Internet SEAL
Hmmmm.
In our experience, more often than not the folks WE arrested drove nicer cars than the CEO's of most Fortune 500 companies.
I guess I was asleep during the Constitutional Law portion of our federal academy when the U.S. District Judge (ret) who taught that explained that driving a crappy car was plenty good probable cause to figure that a crappy person was inside since crappy people drive crappy cars.
Sorry, but THAT attitude/thought process/training procedure pisses me off royally!
No wonder me and my partner got pulled over and hassled so much--we drove a crappy-looking pickup with a crappy paint job and a crappy interior.
Jeff
ScottG1911
Member
Isn't probable cause only valid if a felony crime HAS been commited, I'm not sure or not
Since we're talking about it, and not everyone apparently is familiar with the terms:
PROBABLE CAUSE - A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.
When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.
In the United States a probable cause hearing is the preliminary hearing that typically takes place after arraignment and before a serious crime goes to trial; the judge is presented with the basis of the prosecution's case and the defendant is afforded full right of cross-examination and the right to be represented by legal counsel. If the prosecution cannot make out a case of probable cause the court must dismiss the case against the accused.
Carroll v. United States the Supreme Court held that vehicles may be searched without warrants if the officer undertaking the search has probable cause to believe that the vehicle contains contraband. The Court explained that the mobility of vehicles would allow them to be quickly moved from the jurisdiction if time were taken to obtain a warrant.
"Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction.
PROBABLE CAUSE - A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.
When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.
In the United States a probable cause hearing is the preliminary hearing that typically takes place after arraignment and before a serious crime goes to trial; the judge is presented with the basis of the prosecution's case and the defendant is afforded full right of cross-examination and the right to be represented by legal counsel. If the prosecution cannot make out a case of probable cause the court must dismiss the case against the accused.
Carroll v. United States the Supreme Court held that vehicles may be searched without warrants if the officer undertaking the search has probable cause to believe that the vehicle contains contraband. The Court explained that the mobility of vehicles would allow them to be quickly moved from the jurisdiction if time were taken to obtain a warrant.
"Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction.
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