TallPine
Member
H&K Fan, see the song lyrics in my post right above yours - did you think "Mona's" was the local Dairy Queen ?????
What did they REALLY carry in the old West?
- Thread starter Topgun
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H&K Fan, see the song lyrics in my post right above yours - did you think "Mona's" was the local Dairy Queen ?????
Marshall
Member
Merwin Hulbert was a major manufacturer of quality revolvers during the 1870's and 1880's. Gun writer and black powder cartridge expert Mike Venturino states that "no revolver ever made exhibits more craftsmanship and precision machine work in its manufacture." During the late 1800's the Merwin company was certainly among the top four large frame revolver makers in the U.S., the others being Colt, S&W, and Remington. Most casual observers suppose that Colt was the leading manufacturer of large frame cartridge revolvers in the 1800's, and may be aware that Remington and S&W made revolvers then, and few are aware of Merwin. However if you look at factory production, you'll find that S&W actually made more large frame cartridge revolvers than Colt during the 1800's, and, based on the frequency of surviving examples encountered, I often wonder if Merwin didn't produce more than Remington!
The Merwin design is unique and required extremely precise machining and hand fitting. The twist open design allows for selective, simultaneous ejection of empty cases while leaving loaded rounds in the cylinder. To open a Merwin Hulbert, the gun is held in the right hand with fingers of left hand wrapping around top of the barrel,. The left thumb pushes the button on the front bottom of the frame backwards towards the trigger guard. The barrel is then twisted towards the left, (which would be clockwise as viewed from the rear of the gun) and pulled forward. This allows ejection of empties. If disassembly is desired at this point, the button on left side of barrel is pushed in and barrel and cylinder slide forward off of the frame.
One feature unique to Merwin design and evidence of the remarkable machining, which is highly prized by collectors, is "suction." On particularly nice examples of Merwins you will find that when you have gun open and barrel pulled forward, if you release the barrel, the barrel and cylinder will pull backwards towards frame as if spring loaded. No springs are involved; it is simply that the close machining of the parts creates a suction which tends to pull the gun back together.
Merwin Model terminology can be a bit confusing at first. We will try to sort it out here:
"Frontier" Models are large frame square butt Models.
"Pocket Army" Models have a birds head grip which comes to a "skullcrusher" type point on the bottom with a large lanyard ring hole drilled through the point. Many of the Pocket Army Models have shorter 3 ½" barrels, although they were also made with the long 7" barrel, most commonly encountered on Frontier Models. Both Frontier and Pocket Army Models can be found in single action or double action configuration.
The evolution of large frame Merwin revolvers went through 4 distinct phases which are called, First through Fourth Models, by collectors. The First and Second Models were made in single action configuration only, and are quickly identified by an open top (no top strap extending from the rear of barrel to frame) and "scoop flutes" on cylinder. First and Second Models are very similar - quickest way to tell them apart is to notice there are two small screws going into the First Model frame above trigger guard where as only one screw there on Second Model. First Models were made in Frontier configuration only, while Second Models were made in both Pocket Army and Frontier configuration.
The Third Model added a top strap from the rear of barrel to frame above hammer, providing an additional locking point for additional strength. Also the flutes of cylinder were changed from scoop flutes to standard type fluting we're familiar with on most revolvers today. Third Model was the first to be offered in both Single Action and Double Action types and again was offered in both Pocket Army and Frontier style. The Fourth Model is probably the most scarce - it's nearly identical to Third Model, but with a rib added to the barrel, (the barrel is round on all the other three Models.)
The large frame Merwins were offered in three chamberings - 44 Merwin Hulbert, 44-40 (the most common chambering, designated by the marking "Calibre Winchester 1873"), and 44 Russian.
The Merwin collector has to be careful, in that many Spanish copies from the same era are found. Some of these are of good quality while others are lesser guns. An original Merwin will usually have both Merwin Hulbert company markings and Hopkins & Allen (although the Merwin guns were made to a consistently higher standard than the H&A guns.) The foreign copies, while interesting and colorful, were worth less than U.S. made Merwins, and may have the words Merwin Hulbert appearing in their markings.
Merwin also made SA and DA small frame revolvers, in two frame sizes chambered for 32 and 38 cartridges; along with a tip up 22 spur trigger resembling the S&W Model One.
The Merwin design is unique and required extremely precise machining and hand fitting. The twist open design allows for selective, simultaneous ejection of empty cases while leaving loaded rounds in the cylinder. To open a Merwin Hulbert, the gun is held in the right hand with fingers of left hand wrapping around top of the barrel,. The left thumb pushes the button on the front bottom of the frame backwards towards the trigger guard. The barrel is then twisted towards the left, (which would be clockwise as viewed from the rear of the gun) and pulled forward. This allows ejection of empties. If disassembly is desired at this point, the button on left side of barrel is pushed in and barrel and cylinder slide forward off of the frame.
One feature unique to Merwin design and evidence of the remarkable machining, which is highly prized by collectors, is "suction." On particularly nice examples of Merwins you will find that when you have gun open and barrel pulled forward, if you release the barrel, the barrel and cylinder will pull backwards towards frame as if spring loaded. No springs are involved; it is simply that the close machining of the parts creates a suction which tends to pull the gun back together.
Merwin Model terminology can be a bit confusing at first. We will try to sort it out here:
"Frontier" Models are large frame square butt Models.
"Pocket Army" Models have a birds head grip which comes to a "skullcrusher" type point on the bottom with a large lanyard ring hole drilled through the point. Many of the Pocket Army Models have shorter 3 ½" barrels, although they were also made with the long 7" barrel, most commonly encountered on Frontier Models. Both Frontier and Pocket Army Models can be found in single action or double action configuration.
The evolution of large frame Merwin revolvers went through 4 distinct phases which are called, First through Fourth Models, by collectors. The First and Second Models were made in single action configuration only, and are quickly identified by an open top (no top strap extending from the rear of barrel to frame) and "scoop flutes" on cylinder. First and Second Models are very similar - quickest way to tell them apart is to notice there are two small screws going into the First Model frame above trigger guard where as only one screw there on Second Model. First Models were made in Frontier configuration only, while Second Models were made in both Pocket Army and Frontier configuration.
The Third Model added a top strap from the rear of barrel to frame above hammer, providing an additional locking point for additional strength. Also the flutes of cylinder were changed from scoop flutes to standard type fluting we're familiar with on most revolvers today. Third Model was the first to be offered in both Single Action and Double Action types and again was offered in both Pocket Army and Frontier style. The Fourth Model is probably the most scarce - it's nearly identical to Third Model, but with a rib added to the barrel, (the barrel is round on all the other three Models.)
The large frame Merwins were offered in three chamberings - 44 Merwin Hulbert, 44-40 (the most common chambering, designated by the marking "Calibre Winchester 1873"), and 44 Russian.
The Merwin collector has to be careful, in that many Spanish copies from the same era are found. Some of these are of good quality while others are lesser guns. An original Merwin will usually have both Merwin Hulbert company markings and Hopkins & Allen (although the Merwin guns were made to a consistently higher standard than the H&A guns.) The foreign copies, while interesting and colorful, were worth less than U.S. made Merwins, and may have the words Merwin Hulbert appearing in their markings.
Merwin also made SA and DA small frame revolvers, in two frame sizes chambered for 32 and 38 cartridges; along with a tip up 22 spur trigger resembling the S&W Model One.
Mike Irwin
Member
Marshall,
I've not figured it out, but how many of those S&W large frames were for American consumption, and how many were for foreign sales to Russia, Turkey, Japan, etc.?
I don't have Colt production figures, but I don't think Colt had the foreign contracts to the degree that S&W did.
I've not figured it out, but how many of those S&W large frames were for American consumption, and how many were for foreign sales to Russia, Turkey, Japan, etc.?
I don't have Colt production figures, but I don't think Colt had the foreign contracts to the degree that S&W did.
Marshall
Member
Mike, I don't them broken down and am having trouble finding them that way. If I do, I'll post them.
Beer for my Horses
Member
For the money, I'll still take a good lever action rifle today; especially as a trunk gun. I know one fellow who takes his to tactical carbine classes and outshoots most of the students with AR-15's!
Mike Irwin
Member
"Let's face it, there is a reason Marshall Dillon never married Miss Kitty."
Yeah, she was ugly and dressed funny!
Yeah, she was ugly and dressed funny!
First thing hollywood got wrong was that low on your leg quick draw holster. Anyone who has ever tried to get on a horse with one of those has ended up with a pistolé in the dirt.
A good holster was held close to the body and covered most of the weapon, often with a flap (a holdover from black powder days).
It's true that many ladies carried derringers and as a Black Cowboy once explained to my third grade class, a 7 inch Colt 44-40 wouldn't FIT in her little handbag! He also had a Colt Lightning and an 1878 DA Colt. 45. The holster he displayed were not the hollywood rigs, but what you'd call "mexican loop" holsters now. His Remington derringer(s) were placed in the leather lined pocket of his vest, or hidden in a small case (ala why does EVERY wells Fargo desk have a compartment for a handgun?) His collection of pistols was inherited from HIS grandfather (he showed us really old photos) and he explained gleefully to us 3rd graders how basically being a cowboy was a job nobody wanted, so 'undesirables' like Mexicans and Irish frequently did the work. Also it was one of the few jobs free blacks were recruited for. He also showed off a Winchester rifle that had been repaired at the wrist and unlike what we think these days it wasn't chambered to match his pistols. His rifle was 50-70 or some such thing and I recall that the bore of that rifle was like looking into a mineshaft. That rifle had some "character" to it.. like it spent a LOT of time in a scabbard on the range.
I guess they wouldn't let a black cowboy come and talk to a 3rd grade class and show off guns and branding irons and lariats... but I'm glad that cowboy came to my class.
Colts may not have been as available as the movies would have you think, but they were certainly popular and sought after items, and people used them.
A good holster was held close to the body and covered most of the weapon, often with a flap (a holdover from black powder days).
It's true that many ladies carried derringers and as a Black Cowboy once explained to my third grade class, a 7 inch Colt 44-40 wouldn't FIT in her little handbag! He also had a Colt Lightning and an 1878 DA Colt. 45. The holster he displayed were not the hollywood rigs, but what you'd call "mexican loop" holsters now. His Remington derringer(s) were placed in the leather lined pocket of his vest, or hidden in a small case (ala why does EVERY wells Fargo desk have a compartment for a handgun?) His collection of pistols was inherited from HIS grandfather (he showed us really old photos) and he explained gleefully to us 3rd graders how basically being a cowboy was a job nobody wanted, so 'undesirables' like Mexicans and Irish frequently did the work. Also it was one of the few jobs free blacks were recruited for. He also showed off a Winchester rifle that had been repaired at the wrist and unlike what we think these days it wasn't chambered to match his pistols. His rifle was 50-70 or some such thing and I recall that the bore of that rifle was like looking into a mineshaft. That rifle had some "character" to it.. like it spent a LOT of time in a scabbard on the range.
I guess they wouldn't let a black cowboy come and talk to a 3rd grade class and show off guns and branding irons and lariats... but I'm glad that cowboy came to my class.
Colts may not have been as available as the movies would have you think, but they were certainly popular and sought after items, and people used them.
Marshall
Member
Art,
Now that you mention it, you made me remember that about tombstones back then. There were many written with witt and humor. I would not mind seeing that return. That has the possiblities of being an idication as to how we have become less personable as time has gone by. Rather a shame, really.
Now that you mention it, you made me remember that about tombstones back then. There were many written with witt and humor. I would not mind seeing that return. That has the possiblities of being an idication as to how we have become less personable as time has gone by. Rather a shame, really.
Mike Irwin
Member
Don't think Winchester ever chambered the .50-70 Gov't. in one of their lever rifles, but the .50-95 was a fairly popular round for the 1876 Centennial rifle, and the 1886 rifle was chambered in .50-110. These two were among the most potent of the blackpowder lever action cartridges.
sixgun_symphony
member
The West was already won by the 1890's.
Go back to the 1870's and there was more wilderness. Go back another twenty years and you would see more people wearing buckskins and using percussion muzzle-loading rifles.
Go back to the 1870's and there was more wilderness. Go back another twenty years and you would see more people wearing buckskins and using percussion muzzle-loading rifles.
Wildalaska
member
You guys can argue all you want, but on TV tonight all the cowboys carried Colts and had good teeth.
WildhollywoodISrealityAlaska
WildhollywoodISrealityAlaska
In the pre civil war era , I understand that the .31 cal pocket Colt outsold all other Colt models.
After the development of the Missouri Skintight holster in the late 50s early 60s the larger models became more common. Since the average cowboy was poorly paid, I doubt that they carried expensive firearms.
The Remington Rolling Block and the Sharps probably did more to "win the West" than any repeater.
The Colt Single Action Army era was probably only about 10 years duration.
The 1894 Winchester was way too late to have anything to do with "winning the West".
The gentleman who mentioned Bodie was right on the money.
Mike
After the development of the Missouri Skintight holster in the late 50s early 60s the larger models became more common. Since the average cowboy was poorly paid, I doubt that they carried expensive firearms.
The Remington Rolling Block and the Sharps probably did more to "win the West" than any repeater.
The Colt Single Action Army era was probably only about 10 years duration.
The 1894 Winchester was way too late to have anything to do with "winning the West".
The gentleman who mentioned Bodie was right on the money.
Mike
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Some areas stayed pretty wild on up to WW I. My area in the Big Bend of Texas was among them. (Some folks say it hasn't really changed all that much. ) The last Apache fight involved troops from Fort Davis, around 1886. IIRC, it was over west of Marfa, south of Van Horn. Really rugged mountains...
Hallie Stilwell went off to teach school in Presidio around 1919 or so; she carried a revolver in her purse. (No stranger to guns; she later used a .30-30 on a mountain lion, near the house on her husband's ranch.) Her book, "I'll Gather My Geese" is a classic of frontier writing.
And, getting down to the nitty-gritty, the borderlands with Mexico, today, are nastier and wilder than in the 1800s...Who's winning?
Art
) The last Apache fight involved troops from Fort Davis, around 1886. IIRC, it was over west of Marfa, south of Van Horn. Really rugged mountains...Hallie Stilwell went off to teach school in Presidio around 1919 or so; she carried a revolver in her purse. (No stranger to guns; she later used a .30-30 on a mountain lion, near the house on her husband's ranch.) Her book, "I'll Gather My Geese" is a classic of frontier writing.
And, getting down to the nitty-gritty, the borderlands with Mexico, today, are nastier and wilder than in the 1800s...Who's winning?
Art
TallPine
Member
A lot of people don't realize that the homestead era in Montana didn't occur until about 1910 thru 1925. Before 1910 it was still mostly all open range in Montana and southern Alberta.
The Dust Bowl starved out most of the "sodbusters" but by then the die was cast and the abandoned homes were gradually absorbed by big ranches and a few big wheat operations (and many do both).
The Dust Bowl starved out most of the "sodbusters" but by then the die was cast and the abandoned homes were gradually absorbed by big ranches and a few big wheat operations (and many do both).
mrstang01
Member
There's a show on now on the History Channel about the guns that won the west. They indicated that the cowboy treated his guns just like his saddle. It was a tool your life could depend on, so you bought the best. As my dad used to say, you can buy a good tool once, or a cheap tool 3 or 4 times.
I did take issue with the show's assertion that the homesteaders and pioneers were in more danger of accidental discharges than other sources. Sounded like typical anti bull. I was surprised, the History channel is usually very positive.
Michael
I did take issue with the show's assertion that the homesteaders and pioneers were in more danger of accidental discharges than other sources. Sounded like typical anti bull. I was surprised, the History channel is usually very positive.
Michael
Mike Irwin
Member
Actually, given the lack of safety devices on those guns, I wouldn't be surprised about that in the least...
mrstang01
Member
Ok crew, there's a show on now on the History Channel called: Real Cowboy: An American Icon. Hopefully it will have some good insight on the tools of the Cowboy.
Mike, as to your response, all I can say, is the biggest safety has always been between your ears. I suppose with the influx of a great deal of people who hadn't handled weapons all their life, this could have been true. But I would think that back then more people would have been acquainted with guns.
Mike, as to your response, all I can say, is the biggest safety has always been between your ears. I suppose with the influx of a great deal of people who hadn't handled weapons all their life, this could have been true. But I would think that back then more people would have been acquainted with guns.
Hkmp5sd
Member
According to the above mentioned History Channel Show....
The 1851 Navy in .36 caliber ruled from 1851 to 1876. Several hundred thousand were produced and cost the equivalent of 6 months wages.
The 1851 Navy in .36 caliber ruled from 1851 to 1876. Several hundred thousand were produced and cost the equivalent of 6 months wages.
Keith
Member
Let's all slow down for a moment and think about this!
First of all, cowboys were only a tiny minority of people living in the west. Many areas of the west didn't even raise cattle! Even where they did, you probably had 30 or 40 people who were miners, laborers, store clerks, railroad employees, farmers, etc, for every cowboy.
Clerks and bartenders didn't line up for those famous posed photo's in Dodge City like the cowboys did. They'd show up in Abeline or Dodge and get paid off, and after a bath, a beer and a hooker, show up in front of a painted tableau squinting grimly into the camera with their 7 1/2" Colt strapped on their leg. Many of those firearms were supplied by the photographer for "color"!
It's those thousands of photo's that give the impression that everyone west of Missouri was a cowboy, sporting a Colt revolver and a Winchester.
Certainly, cowboys did favor the big Colt and for good reason, given the nature of their job. But, I suspect most other people had some far cheaper (and more concealable) revolver tucked away.
It would be interesting to get ahold of some old hardware store records and see what guns were most popular. Even today, you can find old .32's, etc, from obscure makers gathering dust in pawn shops. They must have been sold in the millions.
Keith
First of all, cowboys were only a tiny minority of people living in the west. Many areas of the west didn't even raise cattle! Even where they did, you probably had 30 or 40 people who were miners, laborers, store clerks, railroad employees, farmers, etc, for every cowboy.
Clerks and bartenders didn't line up for those famous posed photo's in Dodge City like the cowboys did. They'd show up in Abeline or Dodge and get paid off, and after a bath, a beer and a hooker, show up in front of a painted tableau squinting grimly into the camera with their 7 1/2" Colt strapped on their leg. Many of those firearms were supplied by the photographer for "color"!
It's those thousands of photo's that give the impression that everyone west of Missouri was a cowboy, sporting a Colt revolver and a Winchester.
Certainly, cowboys did favor the big Colt and for good reason, given the nature of their job. But, I suspect most other people had some far cheaper (and more concealable) revolver tucked away.
It would be interesting to get ahold of some old hardware store records and see what guns were most popular. Even today, you can find old .32's, etc, from obscure makers gathering dust in pawn shops. They must have been sold in the millions.
Keith
Many of the Navy Colts were military sales both in the USA and foriegn sales. It was however a popular model. The hot set up for the Kansas/Missouri Border Wars was a Navy Colt in a Missouri Skintight holster.
Many authorities say that the .58 caliber Army muzzleloaders really won the West. They were certainly ubiquitous.
Most American Indians died of disease relatively few were ever shot by anyone. The Europeans coming to North America had already survived living in a cesspool of communicable disease.
Native Americans had a very weak immune system compared to a European. Historians estimate that 80% to 90% died without a fight. Most died without seeing a white man.
In some cases, a good immune system is better than a bullet proof vest!
Keith was right about the percentage of cowboys in the old west.
The last areas of California brought under control of the law were East of Bakersfield and North of the Klamath. Even today people say "There is NO law North of the Klamath river."
Many authorities say that the .58 caliber Army muzzleloaders really won the West. They were certainly ubiquitous.
Most American Indians died of disease relatively few were ever shot by anyone. The Europeans coming to North America had already survived living in a cesspool of communicable disease.
Native Americans had a very weak immune system compared to a European. Historians estimate that 80% to 90% died without a fight. Most died without seeing a white man.
In some cases, a good immune system is better than a bullet proof vest!
Keith was right about the percentage of cowboys in the old west.
The last areas of California brought under control of the law were East of Bakersfield and North of the Klamath. Even today people say "There is NO law North of the Klamath river."
jar
Contributing Member
Remember, the old west lasted far longer than many people seem to understand. Many parts of the West were still pretty wild well into the 1900's. The Indian wars themselves officially lasted into the 1890's and by then, what we'd call modern handguns and rifles were readily available. In fact, many of the guns available in the Old West continued being sold right up until WWII.
Kaylee
Member
Just a couple little notes to add --
1. a friend of mine was a cowboy for a time, down South Idaho way. From what he told me, it was (and still is, for all I know) quite common to carry a pistol cross-draw style high on the belt...
... for shooting your horse if'n ya get thrown and dragged.
2. regarding accident rates -- those figures are likely from the reports of the wagon train era... apparently NDs were a relatively common death then. Given that a lot of folks on that trail were likely more "urbanized" easterners or European imports, I'd not be the least surprised if they weren't as acquainted with firearms safety as we know it today. I do remember reading one report of a pioneer pulling his sidelock rifle out of the wagon by the barrel. The hammer caught on a strap of somekind I think, fell.... you can guess the rest. ick.
3. Six months wages for a colt '58???! For that I'd REALLY like to see a source. I have a hard time believing that.. excepting MAYBE during the height of the war years when the armies were pulling up all the weapons they could. Certainly after the war they could be had for a song, comparatively speaking.
-K
1. a friend of mine was a cowboy for a time, down South Idaho way. From what he told me, it was (and still is, for all I know) quite common to carry a pistol cross-draw style high on the belt...
... for shooting your horse if'n ya get thrown and dragged.
2. regarding accident rates -- those figures are likely from the reports of the wagon train era... apparently NDs were a relatively common death then. Given that a lot of folks on that trail were likely more "urbanized" easterners or European imports, I'd not be the least surprised if they weren't as acquainted with firearms safety as we know it today. I do remember reading one report of a pioneer pulling his sidelock rifle out of the wagon by the barrel. The hammer caught on a strap of somekind I think, fell.... you can guess the rest. ick.
3. Six months wages for a colt '58???! For that I'd REALLY like to see a source. I have a hard time believing that.. excepting MAYBE during the height of the war years when the armies were pulling up all the weapons they could. Certainly after the war they could be had for a song, comparatively speaking.
-K
Oracle
Member
I saw that special on the History Channel, and the statement it made was that "more people on the trails to the west were killed from accidental discharges of their own firearms than were killed by Indians" (not an exact quote), and I believe that is most likely to be true. As was mentioned, a lot of the people heading "out west" weren't exactly well-trained in the use of firearms, many were city folk and immigrants from Europe. Most of the "country folk" stayed on the farms they had in the east. And, as we all know, untrained people fooling with firearms can easily end in disaster, especially when under stress (as they would likely be if under attack by people or animals).
An extreme emphasis on gun safety is a relatively modern phenomenon, as evidenced by the fact that there are far fewer accidental deaths by firearms now than there have ever been since they came into common useage. People who are "into firearms" now (such as most of us) also shoot a whole lot more than most people did back then, so proper and safe gunhandling is ingrained into most of us, and we can't think that people who would handle a gun regularly that wouldn't have proper and safe gunhandling pounded into their heads. But, that was the case in previous times.
An extreme emphasis on gun safety is a relatively modern phenomenon, as evidenced by the fact that there are far fewer accidental deaths by firearms now than there have ever been since they came into common useage. People who are "into firearms" now (such as most of us) also shoot a whole lot more than most people did back then, so proper and safe gunhandling is ingrained into most of us, and we can't think that people who would handle a gun regularly that wouldn't have proper and safe gunhandling pounded into their heads. But, that was the case in previous times.
ElToro
Member
9mm... killing for the Kaiser since 1903.... about as likely to see one in the old west, as some pimpy Tiffany carved colt or S&W...
i love this thread.. i love going to the old ghost towns and minings towns out here in PRK and in the sierras and and just letting my imagine run wild... ever been to bodie or virginia city although VC is a little tooo commercial...
i love this thread.. i love going to the old ghost towns and minings towns out here in PRK and in the sierras and and just letting my imagine run wild... ever been to bodie or virginia city although VC is a little tooo commercial...
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