What do you consider good accuracy?

[SRMohawk]

Gentlemen,
We firearms enthusiasts tend to throw around phrases referencing the performance (i.e. accuracy) of our firearms quite liberally, often without submitting any exact/objective figures as to just what we mean by them.

With reference to sporter and tactical rifles only, what do you consider good performance from any one of your rifles? Qualify your response as necessary, too. For example, few of us have the same expectations of an $1100 stock Remington or Winchester sporter rifle with a Bushnell 3x9 scope as we do of a $5000 - $7000 custom heavy-barreled rig built around a BAT, Borden, or Nesika action and topped with a Schmidt & Bender PM II.

Speaking for myself, I'm quite satisfied with my custom .300 WSM tactical rifle consistently shooting sub-0.4 MOA (i.e. 0.300-0.399 MOA) for 5 shot groups. This, however, infuriates a good friend of mine who thinks that by virure of the rifle being a $5300 custom setup, it should consistently shoot sub-0.250 MOA for 5 shot groups. I think he's unreasonable.

 

[chestnut ridge]

Those 0.4 inch groups are totally unacceptable. I would dump that rifle
ASAP. You will be lucky to get 300 dollars for it; scope included.
Please provide your mailing address and I will get the ffl and the 300
in the mail.

 

[1911 guy]

Depends.

No, not the undergarments.

What accuracy is expected or desireable has a lot to do with use. There is also a formula for figuring maximum capable accuracy that takes bore diameter, case capacity and a few other vairiables into consideration. I'll post when I find it again.

For a varmint rifle, I want one ragged hole at 100yds. For a military arm, I want Minute of Torso at 300yds. Shotguns, I'll take a pie plate at 75yds. For a deer rifle, I need to be inside a six inch circle to 300yds. Handguns, I want pie plate at 25yds. If I was a bullseye competitor, none of these criteria would be nearly good enough. It's too subjective without saying "platform X in caliber Y for purpose A in conditions B". And that gets tedious.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

2 MOA

 

[silverlance]

pie plate

shotgun giving pie plate at 75 yards??!

you must be using one heck of a tight choke (assuming you are using 00 buck).

 

[270Win]

For me, depends entirely on the gun.

But a general standard of MOA or 2MOA seems common.

 

[SRMohawk]

Whoooooaaaaaa Nelliiiiieeeee! The fellas at this forum make me laugh like none of the others I've ever joined or even purused elsewhere! I thank you all for making me laugh from time to time.

As for those of you who consider even 2 MOA to be 'good performance', I have to admit something that keeps me up at night. When I was in my early 20s and first getting carried away with the idea of firearms ownership and the various shooting sports/disciplines, I would never have imagined that in a matter of only 5 years I would be selling my Colt 80 Series 1911 and Sako 7mm Remington Magnum sporter so that I could drop 5-6 times the amount I paid for them to get a Les Baer Premier II and a Dakota Longbow. Five more years down the line and I would end up owning many custom, high-end firearms in the all-consuming pursuit of increasingly greater accuracy. But at what price/expense beyond just the money itself? By now I am filled with bitterness that for all the money and energy I've spent to own 'Ferraris' and 'Lamborghinis', the guys out there with 'Fords' and 'Chevys' are not only having alot more fun, but they are better prepared for the terrible things to come. I am certain, for instance, that if we could control for all other variables (e.g. level of expertise), a man with a Remington Sendero .300 WSM and a Glock 21 would survive much longer than myself with any handgun/rifle combination at my disposal. uhoh:

 

[Metapotent]

Rife
Unsatisfactory Accuracy: 6+ MOA
Mediocre Accuracy: 3-5 MOA
Good Accuracy: 1-2 MOA
Great Accuracy: .5 - 1 MOA
Holy S---: Less than .5 MOA

Unfortunately, there are very few people in the world who can exploit the advantages of a sub-MOA rifle. There are way too many variables and way too much human error involved in accurate shooting that anything less than .5 MOA in accuracy means squat for even a skilled shooter.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Accuracy is what you want to hit. Let it pass the common sense test and don't get taken in on the (SUB MOA) bit unless you are into competition shooting. If you only want to shoot at 100 yard targets than you will never have to factor in the wind nor elevation. You probably won't be factoring in the wind or elevation until you are shooting past 250 yards. Shooting should be fun,challenging, relatively cheap and rounds plentiful. Americans have a rich history of accurate marksmanship even before this great country of ours was born. I applaud THR for what it does. it continues to futher that great pastime of ours which is marksmanship.

 

[dfaugh]

High-Capacity, Intermediate Caliber ("SHTF", "assault rifle")--3-4 MOA

Good Bolt Action with decent optics < or near 1 MOA

REALLY Good Bolt Action with decent optics < or near 1/2 MOA

 

[Dr. Dickie]

On the internet, everybody shoots sub 1 MOA groups at 300 yards offhand .
You just need practice.

 

[El Tejon]

I've always used the polestar of 5" groups (from prone, no benches!) at 200 yards. YMMV.

 

[armoredman]

Truth picture.



Top group I am OK with, bottom group was more normal, with the 40 year old surplus Czech Silvertip. What I am hoping for is to tighten up the top group with some handloads, but waiting for some brass first.
Rifle is a 1920 Mosin 91/30 7.62x54R, 100 yards, (far as the range goes), iron sights. No Internet jabbering, the actual target.

 

[1911 guy]

Groups VS patterns.

O.K., let me clarify. I'm not looking for shotgun patterns at 75 yards, I'm talking groups, same as original post. Thinks slugs. That's all we can use in Ohio during gun season. Slugs, handguns and muzzleloaders. I knew what I was thinking, I just didn't spell it out.

 

[Legionnaire]

I consider any rifle capable of 1MOA good accuracy. If you want to shoot 500 yards plus, I believe you need something that can group under 1" at 100 yards on a regular basis. Otherwise, it get's too frustrating. I have one "very accurate" rifle that groups consistently 0.5 MOA or better if I do my part. Pic is 5-shot group at 100 yards, 175gr .308 Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.

For my hunting rifle, I'm satisfied with 2MOA. Get outside 4MOA with any rifle and I start looking for ways to make it better. Plinkers? Minute of Coke Can is fine.

 

[Z_Infidel]

With my CZ 550 FS, .30-06 and 1-4X scope I manage about 3-4" groups at 100 yards on a rest. Now before anyone jumps to conclusions, this rifle is new to me and I'm still learning. I get better with each trip to the range, and I will tighen up the groups. Practical accuracy out to 200 yards is what I'm setting as my goal.

With my Marlin .357 Mag lever gun I'm happy when I put all my shots in the black at 75 yards offhand, 100 yards supported. Yup, there are lots of guys who are better than me. But I'm having fun and improving!

 

[bpm990d]

Your buddy is a tool that spends money on gun bling! He isn't really interested in shooting. He is more interested in what some automobile manufactures call Pride in Ownership.

Schmidt & Bender PM II

Nice scope, stupid money though.

 

[db_tanker]

Tight groups are nice, don't get me wrong...


But the fun part is actually putting the rig together to get that tight group.


What do I consider a tight group?

If I can keep my 12" 223 TC inside of 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with my handloads, Darrell is a happy redneck.

If I have my Brno out and trying to act like a cooter-bob benchrest shooter, then if I can keep my groups touching, then life is good.

If I can hit paper with my 45-70 carbine without dislocating my retina's...then I can say I have accomplished somthing.

Its not a competition for me and most of my friends...and its not about who has the bestest toys and such...its still about having fun...and I know it will always be that way with us.

MTCW
D

 

[2400]

Depends on the rifle, for my 338, 300Wby, 270, 7x57, etc. under 2" is good, under an inch and a half is better and under an inch is great. For my 223 and 22-250 under 3/4" is good, under 1/2" is better and under 3/8" is great.

 

[bowfin]

If you want to impress me, show me 3 MOA kneeling, prone, and sitting, and 4 MOA offhand. What a rifle does on the bench is only pertinent if you are competing with others on a bench.

That LA S.W.A.T. guy that accidentally killed the little girl in a shootout earlier this year is probably sub .5 MOA off the bench, but wasn't 15 MOA as part of the whole system when it counted. (NOTE: I am not bashing LEO, SWAT teams, or the individual, just showing that their can be a wide disparity in bench accuracy vs. practical application, and they don't necessarily carry over.)

People don't come to see the fiddle, they come for the music, so show me the practical application, and I'll buy into it.

If the ends of your means is to make THE littlest groups off of a bench, then you need to get way below sub M.O.A. If you want to harvest a deer, then get 3 MOA in every single position and circumstance possible, and shooting tiny groups off the bench won't make amends for not being able to hit an 8 1/2" by 11" target offhand at 100 yards.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Bowfin, that post is right on the money.


Which is why I believe 2moa is good accuracy. If you can get close to that with a scoped decent rifle in various set ups, you're doing great.


Forget this 0.3moa nonsense. That's strictly benchrest type shooting. Those conditions simply DO NOT EXIST in any real world application. Not in the field, not anywhere except on a concrete range bench with fancy bags and a rest.


Doesn't hurt to have an accurate rifle though, even a rifle that is more accurate than you - since whatever group size your skill allows you to shoot will be more "true" because the rifle is a precision rifle. However, no need to think of sub-MOA as being mandatory for "good accuracy"...Guys who *seriously* do 1,000 yard shooting, that's a different story. But guess what, they're not shooting offhand.

 

[browningguy]

Bolt action or semi auto hunting rifles need to be 1.25" at 100 or better to make me happy.

Self defense semi auto rifle 2.5" is ok with me.

Pistols 4" at 25 yards from a rest works fine.

It's a big fallacy that your rifle doesn't need to be any more accurate than you are. If you are a 4 moa shooter with a 1 moa gun then you could potentially shoot 5 moa groups. Make that a 4 moa gun and not we're talking 8 moa total, that's much more likely to lead to a wounded animal. That's using simple addition, I'm sure someone could do some fancy trig or calculus and come up with a more precise answer.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've owned a good number of rifles that I was able to tweak, mess with and load for and wind up with sub-MOA groups from my benchrest.

I'm a good-enough shot that offhand or with some sort of hasty-rest, the majority of my kills were one-shot. Sure, I've had a few where a coup de grace made it more humane...

Anything that shoots into two MOA will do for Bambi, within the common ranges and assuming a heart/lung aim. That's not good enough for long shots, IMO, nor for little varmint critters.

Art

 

[RH822]

MOA??

I have never been to concerned with shot groups. I sight in the firearm and then I am done with the "group" thing. The way I judge my accuracy is simple, If I hit what I am aiming at I'm good. If I miss I take a second shot, miss again, then we got a problem that needs some attention. I have also discovered that my shot placement is far more consistent when my target is 3 dimensional. Not so on paper targets I never seem to hold the same point of aim twice, that's why I don't concern myself with grouping, I suck at it.

RH

 

[js2013]

Consistant sub 0.4MOA groups are outstanding from of a 300 WSM IMHO. For a high dollar custom 6PPC Benchrest rifle 0.40MOA isn't very good, but for 300 WSM I'd be really happy if I were you. For highpower target shooting I'm very very happy with a REAL 0.5 to .75MOA out to 600 and can live with 1MOA if I have to. Anything above 1MOA starts to bug me even though I can't even hold 2MOA prone all the time.