What does it take for you to consider a pistol unreliable?

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Hokkmike

Hokkmike

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I have three pistols. Their occurance of misfires varies....

In the bottom extreme my Steyr fails to fire or eject at least one or two rounds in a box of 50.

Conversly, the Beretta 9000sf has not yet given me any problems. It has, of yet, not missed a beat. I think this gun, along with my Bersa, is a very underrated value.

So, how often must a pistol fail to fire for any reason before you deem it unreliable and consider some kind of actions such as major repair or selling it?
 
In the bottom extreme my Steyr fails to fire or eject at least one or two rounds in a box of 50.
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About that many....This pistol would be with me in the aisles of the next gun show looking for a new owner...
Some pistoleros like to start changing out parts, etc and don't mind the expense or time doing so...Not me, it's OUT of here....:)
 
I guess I view reliability as a scale there are some guns that run great as long as you feed them preciously the ammo they like and such. High-end 1911's come to mind, other guns will run on anything from cheap Wolf ammo to some of the super hi-priced ammo. If your gun is 100% with a certain combo of ammo then that gun is reliable with that ammo.

If decreased reliability is caused by something in the gun itself and you cant control what that issue is then the gun is less reliable.

Here is an example for me, I bought a S&W M&P .40 after less than 500rnds it would drop a magazine every 2nd or 3rd shot. I called S&W they sent me a new mag release and it has been 100% since then. Now since I had a prior issue this guns reliable rating would never reach 100% but in its current form I believe it to be 100% reliable.
 
500 rounds with zero malfunctions.
If a malfunction can be attributed to ammo, I'll try different ammo and restart the count.

If I can't get reliability with a second type of ammo I consider the gun unreliable. Might still be fine for range and fun, but not a CCW contender.
 
Tuner is a bit more particular than I am .

If a particular gun hiccups once every 1000 rounds or so, oh well. Anything with moving parts is going to malfunction every now and then. That is why we all spend the time practicing clearing malfunctions, right?

IMO, something that functions 99.9 percent of the time can be considered reliable.
 
I like revolvers...but the 1 round in 2500 rule is a good one. Especially with Murphy's Law lurking around every corner.
 
1 in 2500 sounds good.

Never is better (Glock 17, but I only have 5000 through it).

My Walther P22 has gone better 1 in 1100 (two boxes of Remington Golden Bullets) after I determined what ammo she liked.
 
Depends on whats causing it. I shot a 1911 that would FTF the last round in the magazine about 1 time every 80 rounds, though that was probably the magazine. So the gun is fine.

A true FTF that is the guns fault or a jam should be rare. My Glock had 1 jam in 1000 rounds, but may have been user attributed, not entirely sure. 1 FTF was a bad primer, so I don't count that.
 
Reliability is a very subjective thing. And also a product of the complete shooter/gun/magazine/ammo package. Ask 1000 people and get 1000 answers. The only weapons that I know of that can be counted on for a second shot are double rifles and double barrelled shotguns (twin trigger). I personally don't own either, but everything else relies on cycling either chambers (revolver type actions/gattling gun, etc) or ammunition. Any mechanical device can break or fail for any of a variety of reasons. Murphy's law applies.

The question you need to ask is: Would I feel comfortable fighting with this? It's a personal thing.

More important is to never completely trust any mechanical device. Develop a healthy cynicism about reliability and practice tactics, marksmanship, and stoppage drills. Old school thinking has always been to make every shot count, you don't know if you'll get another.

I don't know if this clears it up or muddies it up, but it's always been my thoughts on the subject.
 
Tuner and Wedge, so are you telling me you would actually sell those guns or what?
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Yeah, I would probably sell something that didn't meet at least 1 out of a 1000 unless I had a good reason to keep it (heirloom, would lose WAY too much money, etc.)
 
I think the 1/1000 would be a good baseline depending on the issue.
I can't really afford to shoot a gun for 40,000 rounds right now so if I get 500 or so through it with no problems I'd consider it reliable.

IMO, I'd get that Steyr fixed if it's under warranty until it is really fixed. From what I've seen though, if a gun starts out bad it will probably stay that way.
When modern CNC machining and mass production makes a good gun, you get a good gun.
When you get a POS they might as well just send you a new one because they will never get the bad one fixed.
Unfortunately, manufacturers would tend to disagree.
 
Tuner and Wedge, so are you telling me you would actually sell those guns or what?
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No. I'd fix a gun that's not reliable. I won't even tolerate a range beater that's not reliable. If it chokes, I wanna know why and I won't rest until I make it right. I have a pair of beaters that have seen over 300,000 rounds collectively over the last 16 years...with maybe a dozen malfunctions between the two...and most of those were because of my funky reloaded ammo.

I shot a 1911 that would FTF the last round in the magazine about 1 time every 80 rounds, though that was probably the magazine. So the gun is fine.
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If you say so...but that's usually a simple issue to correct. I wouldn't put up with a failure to feed/go to battery once in 80 rounds from a junker...but that's just me. I'm anal-retentive over functional reliability on an extreme level.
 
IMO, I'd get that Steyr fixed if it's under warranty until it is really fixed.
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SAI has a very good track record and will get it fixed. It was the most common problem with older Steyrs but shouldn't be a problem for the techs at SAI to make it right.

What caliber is your Steyr?
 
SAI has a very good track record and will get it fixed. It was the most common problem with older Steyrs but shouldn't be a problem for the techs at SAI to make it right.

What caliber is your Steyr?
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It is an M-40. (.40 S & W) I got it used in a trade. It is in great shape except for the problem I described here.
 
1 or 2 missfires in every 2000 rounds max for me to trust my life to it. My Taurus 24/7 PRO has almost 3000 rounds without a single problem so I consider it very reliable (which is great comming from a brand many consider to be not very good.)
 
I can live with one failure in about 1500-2000 rounds. If one occurs that I can attribute to out of spec ammunition (like some of my rushed home cast LSWC) will not be considered.
 
I could go with the 1:2500 ratio if it is something of a "black swan" event--so ridiculously odd or unusual as to be almost totally unpredictable--or if it something that is readily subject to diagnosis and repair, and once repaired, stays repaired.

I like the philosophy of making each shot count because the next one up is not guaranteed. Makes excellent sense.

As it has turned out I prefer wheelguns for most things but do have a couple of 1911s and BHPs that I trust almost as much.
 
It is an M-40. (.40 S & W) I got it used in a trade. It is in great shape except for the problem I described here.
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I was sort of hoping it was a 9mm. The Steyr was built around the .40 S&W and when the 9mm came out here were some extraction problems. There were also extraction problems with .40 caliber guns and SAI has fixed them.

I suppose, to answer the original question, that I'd give the manfacturer an opportunity to fix a problem, and if it persisted or new ones cropped up, I would give up on the gun. If after a trial period the gun performed acceptably I would treat it as if it was fine out of the box.

Of course, some guns require the right match with the right ammo, and that might take some extra time and effort. It seems some have more tolerance for that kind of thing than others, and that seems reasonable.
 
For gas or recoil operated action pistols, I'd say 1/1000 sounds decent. That's a faiure rate of 0.1%, which is so miniscule as to be nearly negligible IMO. For blowback action, I'd accept a slightly higher failure rate. The only recoil operated gun I've ever had so many failures with that I neede to replace it was my very first, a Kel Tec P11. I must have had a lemon because everyone else seems to swear by them but mine had a failure rate of about 4% or 5%. This was before the ejector broke off before round 100 or so and then the extractor broke off once I had replaced the ejector.
 
I'll sell it if I get any FTF, FTE, etc. after the first 300-500 rounds. I don't care what kind of ammo it is, if my gun says .40s&w on the side and it won't eat all .40s&w rounds that I feed it, then the gun has to go. That's assuming the ammo is in-spec. Any gun that needs more than 500 rounds to "break in" is garbage to me.
 
I'll sell it if I get any FTF, FTE, etc. after the first 300-500 rounds.
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About 90% of the time...feed issues are due to the magazine, with the extractor being involved in the other 5% or so. Extraction/ejection problems can usually be traced to the extractor. Fixable stuff...and not too complicated.
 
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