What Guns Should Be C&R But Arn't.

[geolemer]

I have noticed a lot of guns lately that seem like they should be exempt from "the 50 year rule" but aren't, for example the Polish 83. Yes not even 20 Years old and still being used, But they are appealing to collectors and not so much to criminals. It may be we can get them C&R'ed (if that's a word)the same way the CZ 82 was.
I would like to know what you think in list form. What Guns Should Be C&R But Aren't.I know my answer would be all of them but you can't always get what you want(for some reason).
I will start with.

Polish P 83
Croatian PHP MV 9

 

[AirForceShooter]

1911
Jeeze. It's 100 years old

AFS

 

[gavelwacker]

All of them!

 

[zedsdead]

Bulgarian Makarovs

 

[Mooseman]

I think things like pen guns, etc. belong more under the curio part of the law than the NFA. Little chance of that happening though.

 

[dogtown tom]

AirForceShooter ....1911 Jeeze. It's 100 years old..

Uh........it isn't the year of design or model # but year of manufacture.

A 1911 made anytime before todays date in 1961 is C&R eligible.

The reason some firearms that are less than fifty years old are C&R eligible has to do with their special status as collectibles......and all you need to do is ask ATF to agree with that.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Uh........it isn't the year of design or model # but year of manufacture.

Right but you have to admit it's pretty silly that I can buy a 51 year old 1911 with a C&R but I can't buy a 40 year old 1911 with a C&R... since they are the exact same thing.


AR's will start to hit the 50 year old market in quantity soon, should be interesting.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Gun laws in general are pretty silly. Some of them are so convoluted that even the professionals don't know 'em all.

Going back to the OP - I think the S&W 547 revolver in 9mm (9x19) and the Charter Arms Pit Bull revolver in 9mm Federal Rimmed should be on the C&R approved list.

 

[mgmorden]

Bulgarian Makarovs

I whole heartedly agree on this. There's no reason why the Bulgy Maks shouldn't be C&R. There's also no reason why C&R FFL's shouldn't have the same ability to use USPS for shipments like a regular FFL.

Truthfully though, I don't see why C&R doesn't apply to design patterns, not actual guns. Why is it that a Colt 1911 made in 1960 is fine and dandy for me to buy with my C&R but if it's made in 1962 then I can't be trusted with it and it must go through a full FFL?

For that matter, what is so dangerous that I can do with ANY new weapon that I couldn't do with a C&R gun? And who decides what is collectible and what isn't? A lot of brand new guns (many made on the 1911 centennial for example) or plenty collectible, but they aren't on the list.

The whole scenario is crazy, and the restriction is so arbitrary it makes no sense. I don't complain too loudly though. I think they'd kill the C&R program completely before they eased up on the restrictions, so being able to get SOME stuff is better than none.

 

[hammerklavier]

Are there a lot of 50 year old ARs that aren't select fire?

 

[19-3Ben]

Yugo Tok.
PA-63.
Skorpion vz. 61

All I can think of right now, but I'm sure I'll think of more on the ride home.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Are there a lot of 50 year old ARs that aren't select fire?

There will be soon. The original Colt civilian AR's start to hit 50 years old in 2014.

 

[dogtown tom]

mgmorden ......I don't see why C&R doesn't apply to design patterns, not actual guns. Why is it that a Colt 1911 made in 1960 is fine and dandy for me to buy with my C&R but if it's made in 1962 then I can't be trusted with it and it must go through a full FFL?

It has nothing to do with ATF trusting you, it is a license for collecting certain firearms that have a "special interest to collectors".

From http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those “which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.”

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

a.Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

b.Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

c.Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.

 

[mgmorden]

It has nothing to do with ATF trusting you, it is a license for collecting certain firearms that have a "special interest to collectors".

You're making the mistake of talking about how things ARE, in a discussion about how things SHOULD BE. As I said, there is no real legitimate way to arbitrarily determine WHAT would have interest to collectors. A new gun with a special history could have all sorts of interest to collectors but not be on the current list or 50 years old.

My point is just that there is nothing that makes the ones that they current deem "collectible" any less dangerous than the ones they don't, so it wouldn't hurt anything to make the C&R valid for anything legally able to be sold and let the collectors themselves make their own judgements about what they want to buy.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Yugo Tok

These are now on the list. You can order an M57 with your C&R anytime. I did and I love mine...it's a lot of fun.

I too would like the PA-63 to make the list.

 

[dogtown tom]

mgmorden ...You're making the mistake of talking about how things ARE, in a discussion about how things SHOULD BE...

We shouldn't need any type of FFL at all......just like pre '68. There should never have been a GCA '68.......but there was. Until that beast is slain you're stuck with the FFL system as it is.


We could dream about SHOULD BE, WOULD BE or COULD BE all day long....the fact is Federal law says this is what it IS BE.

My point is just that there is nothing that makes the ones that they current deem "collectible" any less dangerous than the ones they don't, so it wouldn't hurt anything to make the C&R valid for anything legally able to be sold and let the collectors themselves make their own judgements about what they want to buy.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with "dangerous"......and EVERYTHING to do with "collectibility". You have an avenue to add firearms to the list...take advantage of it.

You also need to understand why ATF limits C&R's to that certain category.....because if EVERY firearm was eligible you would see more 07's "engaging in the business" than "collecting". And ATF wants only dealers to "engage in the business".

Do you really want the oversight that an 01, 02 or 06 licensee receives?
Because thats what you'll get....forget the $30/3yrs 07FFL....it would jump up to a cost equivalent to a dealer. Forget the "nearly never" compliance inspections that you can do at the ATF office...now they'll arrive unannounced at your home to check your "collection" and bound book.

Since you want to be able to acquire the same firearms as a 01 dealer expect to submit fingerprints, photograph, have site & compliance inspections and the same hassles as an 01.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Hmmm....

There's an argument for all machine guns to be C&R, considering that the number is limited.
S&W ASP and Devel conversions.

Now, I personally advocate replacing the C&R license with a Personal FFL that allows the holder to buy whatever he wants - but only a limited number (3-6) per year, with very limited resale rights (maybe 1/year to nonlicensees). Fifteen years ago, I could have bought East German Makarovs by the crate and resold them.

 

[dogtown tom]

Mike OTDP ...Now, I personally advocate replacing the C&R license with a Personal FFL that allows the holder to buy whatever he wants

How about no FFL's period?

 

[db_tanker]

can we add the Maxim?

How bout the M1895 Browning potato digger?


lets also throw a repeal of the GCA in there as well...


but at the moment I think I need to wake up....I can still dream though...

 

[Ian]

My Vickers is a C&R gun as well as a machine gun (as are many old NFA items). Buying a C&R machine gun requires the regular ATF paperwork, but once it clears the gun can be shipped interstate directly to you if you hold a C&R license (instead of going through a dealer in your home state).

 

[speedway]

Yugo Tok.
PA-63.
Skorpion vz. 61

All I can think of right now, but I'm sure I'll think of more on the ride home.

Yugo tok IS c&r eligible.

 

[RNB65]

M14

 

[cooldude14]

Chinese sks

 

[belercous]

Why are CZ-82's C&R eligible? They're not 50 trs old. I was told it was because Czechoslovakia is no longer a country, but that doesn't make sense as CZ-83's aren't C&R. Anyone know?

 

[dogtown tom]

belercous Why are CZ-82's C&R eligible? They're not 50 trs old. I was told it was because Czechoslovakia is no longer a country, but that doesn't make sense as CZ-83's aren't C&R. Anyone know?

See the last sentence in post #13 above.