ColtPythonElite
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2011
- Messages
- 10,475
I'd take my chances with a Chinese Python...If things keep going the way they have they will surpass us in quality with a lot of durable goods before long.
What happened to Colt?
- Thread starter YankeeFlyr
- Start date
- Status
It's really pathetic the way our industry has crumbled. My dad ran a defense plant, we subbed work from the big 3, now they are all gone. It sucks, everything is a specialty item, Our machinists would cut the head out of a coin for fun in a few minutes. Now you pay 100 bucks to get a pair of sights hammered in, as though that is a big deal.
They trusted me at 20 yrs old to crawl inside the lunar module and work on the wiring harness.Do overhaul work on jets and choppers. Now we serve fries.
There is no pride in ones work anymoe, Guns are a perfect example of what happened. This stuff should be so easy to do. I didn't have a machinest who wasn't missing a digit here or there, but you showed them something and a hour later they made it from scratch. Bending machines anodizing, lathes, and all the power presses, you could imagine. For gods sake if you left a guy in there long enough he could build anything. And did.I guess that is why it blows my mind when I hear the word can't. That would be the day you told a govt. inspector, that you couldn't get a job done, you worked around the clock until the job was done. And no computers.
And you paid a fine for every day that job was behind scheduale.
Now 40 years later it's a lost art.
They trusted me at 20 yrs old to crawl inside the lunar module and work on the wiring harness.Do overhaul work on jets and choppers. Now we serve fries.
There is no pride in ones work anymoe, Guns are a perfect example of what happened. This stuff should be so easy to do. I didn't have a machinest who wasn't missing a digit here or there, but you showed them something and a hour later they made it from scratch. Bending machines anodizing, lathes, and all the power presses, you could imagine. For gods sake if you left a guy in there long enough he could build anything. And did.I guess that is why it blows my mind when I hear the word can't. That would be the day you told a govt. inspector, that you couldn't get a job done, you worked around the clock until the job was done. And no computers.
And you paid a fine for every day that job was behind scheduale.
Now 40 years later it's a lost art.
Ignition Override
Member
SlamFire1:
When owners such as Colt's (former?) owner "take money out", the business world calls, or called it "upstreaming cash".
This has ruined many large corporations, and was a serious factor in the eventual bankruptcy of Trans World Airlines.
The famous, very wealthy modern stock manipulator/corporate thief Carl Icahn bled lots of cash from TWA in the 80s-and not just part of the employees' pensions.
When owners such as Colt's (former?) owner "take money out", the business world calls, or called it "upstreaming cash".
This has ruined many large corporations, and was a serious factor in the eventual bankruptcy of Trans World Airlines.
The famous, very wealthy modern stock manipulator/corporate thief Carl Icahn bled lots of cash from TWA in the 80s-and not just part of the employees' pensions.
Old Dog
Member
I've had no problems with Colt's customer service, as I suspect many of you who've actually had to use it, have also experienced. I don't know that Colt's QC is any worse than any other manufacturer currently -- I had a Series 70 repro lemon, but didn't stress about about it. Strangely, the one 1911 maker everyone bashes (Kimber) has provided me several flawless pistols, while many gunnies' sweetheart factory, Springfield Armory has given me three lemons in a row. I'm gonna stay sanguine about the current status of Colt -- as long as it's making some good guns, and standing by 'em, that's good enough for me. But heck yeah -- I sure wish Colt was still making blued Pythons and Detective Specials ...
Newest Colt's
Newest Colt's
The guns used in "3:10 to Yuma" were actually made right here in the U.S. in Hartford, CT by U.S. Firearms (USFA). Scroll to the bottom of their webpage.
http://www.usfirearms.com/
Corporate suicide
Before the early 1990's if you bought a Colt 1911 you got a narrow tang grip safety and small sights, up to you to correct it.
Then they came out with the enhanced models which addressed those ^ problems.
Reintroduce the Delta Elite 10mm and what does it have? Narrow tang grip safety. :banghead:
Colt attempts to sell based on history or name, not consumer desires.
Colt customer service blamed defect in Defender pistol function (seen in many threads) on user
instead of correcting problem.
Before the early 1990's if you bought a Colt 1911 you got a narrow tang grip safety and small sights, up to you to correct it.
Then they came out with the enhanced models which addressed those ^ problems.
Reintroduce the Delta Elite 10mm and what does it have? Narrow tang grip safety. :banghead:
Colt attempts to sell based on history or name, not consumer desires.
Colt customer service blamed defect in Defender pistol function (seen in many threads) on user
instead of correcting problem.pilotlight
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2011
- Messages
- 63
He has absolutely no business in the firearms industry. That's kind of like a commercial pilot saying, "I personally hate airplanes."
Guillermo
member
While I concur that it would not be profitable to build a new Python, (the challenge of skilled labor being the most difficult to overcome) it seems that a Detective Special, Trooper II (King Cobra) could be manufactured profitably. The lockwork is not nearly as complex.
As to the idea that Colt has to "look forward" I cannot disagree more.
A- the newest design they sell presently is over 60 years old. 1911s sell well. Heck, Harley makes "retro" bikes that are not near the bikes of their competitor and they have a cult following.
B- the best revolvers were made in the past. Replicating those would be a good thing
As to the idea that Colt has to "look forward" I cannot disagree more.
A- the newest design they sell presently is over 60 years old. 1911s sell well. Heck, Harley makes "retro" bikes that are not near the bikes of their competitor and they have a cult following.
B- the best revolvers were made in the past. Replicating those would be a good thing
MtnSpur
Member
Well you have to admit that Gaston Glock, who had no experience in making handguns when he started, is from a financial point of view doing far, far, better then Colt.
Concerning the 1911 platform, while Colt doesn't seem to have any problem selling product, the problem is that in the overall market for this style of pistol they are a very small player. This isn't how you grow a business.
Concerning revolvers, the overall market is shrinking and the pie is getting smaller. So is the profit margin between polymer-based pistols vs. revolvers, even those made using the most modern technologies.
Returning to Gaston Glock, his success is largely based on two factors. The first is that his products have been widely accepted in the market place. The second is that the retail price vs. manufacturing cost generates profits that are far better then his competitors that make more traditional handguns.
At the present time Glock is a company that utilizes modern manufacturing techniques to make a product that has largely transformed the industry. Colt is dying on the vine as it struggles to make yesteryear’s favorites in an environment where cost-of-production in relative terms generates low profits. Unless they take Gaston’s advise they’re future doesn’t look bright.
Understand that on a personal basis I much prefer the older guns. But when you work within the industry – as I once did – you are paid to make realistic judgments and set aside personal likes and dislikes. Any business can be a cruel taskmaster, particularly for those who won’t wake up and smell the coffee.
Nice Mtnspur
Would you ever consider restoring say 1 on them to original shape, or is the value better left untouched?
I would carry on of those, the 380 more than likelly, maybe fancy it up with some nickle plate, and have a custom set of grips in either burled dark or Blk wood. or Ivory, Sarge from elite just ran a sale on ivory grips last weekend. I assume you have had those for some time, and there must be a story along with at least one of them.
Would you ever consider restoring say 1 on them to original shape, or is the value better left untouched?
I would carry on of those, the 380 more than likelly, maybe fancy it up with some nickle plate, and have a custom set of grips in either burled dark or Blk wood. or Ivory, Sarge from elite just ran a sale on ivory grips last weekend. I assume you have had those for some time, and there must be a story along with at least one of them.
Pilot,
My apologies, but the point remains that they weren't Colts & the film industry rarely uses real Colts anymore when there are cheaper alternatives in props that work just as well for their purposes & the viewing public can't tell the difference.
Denis
My apologies, but the point remains that they weren't Colts & the film industry rarely uses real Colts anymore when there are cheaper alternatives in props that work just as well for their purposes & the viewing public can't tell the difference.
Denis
pilotlight
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2011
- Messages
- 63
That's cool Denis. Guess I should have read the thread more closely
Guillermo
member
Old Fuff,
With all due respect, the polymer wondergun market is saturated.
The quality double action revolver market is empty.
Of course you could argue that one cannot by a quality revolver because the market does not want one. While I cannot prove that the market exists, I suspect that it does.
Many don't want cast revolvers filled with injection-molded parts. While you could use the "classic" S&W series to prove your point, I would counter that they are not quality guns. They are just "gussied up" versions of their regular revolvers.
Since Bud's is selling new Smith & Wesson 686 for $671 with shipping (this represents the bottom of the scale) and Freedom Arms sells single actions starting at 2K (the upper end) it seems that the market would welcome a premium double action revolver.
Of course, this potential market is presently being filled by used firearms. Perhaps more of the good old guns need to go out of circulation before the premium double action market is large enough. God knows I am trying to take out as many as I can.
Sadly, since no one seems to be willing to build a premium double action wheel gun, this is all just fun discussion.
With all due respect, the polymer wondergun market is saturated.
The quality double action revolver market is empty.
Of course you could argue that one cannot by a quality revolver because the market does not want one. While I cannot prove that the market exists, I suspect that it does.
Many don't want cast revolvers filled with injection-molded parts. While you could use the "classic" S&W series to prove your point, I would counter that they are not quality guns. They are just "gussied up" versions of their regular revolvers.
Since Bud's is selling new Smith & Wesson 686 for $671 with shipping (this represents the bottom of the scale) and Freedom Arms sells single actions starting at 2K (the upper end) it seems that the market would welcome a premium double action revolver.
Of course, this potential market is presently being filled by used firearms. Perhaps more of the good old guns need to go out of circulation before the premium double action market is large enough. God knows I am trying to take out as many as I can.
Sadly, since no one seems to be willing to build a premium double action wheel gun, this is all just fun discussion.
MtnSpur
Member
Refinishing would negatively affect the "collectible" value. I'd only consider a refinish/reblue on a gun that was not original (made up of parts for example) as that value is already compromised.
Will in all liklihood have my local leathersmith make a slim carry holster for the .380 (the .32 will fit as well as it's same dimensionally). Have a Colt original holster for the vest pocket (nifty little rig
)I actually came upon these three within the last 3-4 months independent of each other at prices that were reasonable and just really liked the feel and natural POA of the .32 and .380. Always wanted a vest pocket so it was like the cherry on top of the sundae
Maybe, but it’s growing, and profitable
And nobody is jumping in because a substantial demand isn’t there, and they can’t meet the quality expectations at an acceptable price point. Everybody wants “old time craftsmanship” but they don’t want to pay for it.
See above.
Absolutely true, but in the overall market this group of buyers is very small, and most of them wouldn’t be satisfied with S&W’s Classic Line, which is the reason they have been a so-so commercial success.
It would more seem that current products are meeting the demand at prices that consumers are willing to pay, but still the pie is shrinking, and I don’t see that a high quality/very expensive line of revolvers would have much impact. Sure, there would be buyers, but not a lot of them.
Indeed! So long as the modest demand from buyers (such as you and I) demanding (perceived) high quality at reasonable prices is being met by offerings in the used market, new guns of the same kind don’t have a bright future. Successful businesses sell into growing markets.
Guil,
S&W sells literally hundreds of plastic guns for every "premium" revolver they sell. Their higher-end guns are not moving in anywhere near the same volume.
S&W is positioned to still produce comparatively smaller numbers of steel revolvers alongside better movers because they've continually produced steel revolvers all the way along, adapting new manufacturing techniques & technology as they went.
Their designs have been easier to wed to emerging technologies (CNC, MIM) than Colt's older V-Springs, the advantage to begin with is clearly with S&W in that regard.
S&W also has had a continual revolver market presence, with name and image recognition among new generations of revolver users. Again, advantage S&W.
Colt can't make a profit on older designs, they'd have to develop a newer one or revert to the MKV actions, with all the costs associated with new gun startup, and the time & effort needed to build market awareness and acceptance all over again.
A new MKV variant would have the cast/MIM parts, required just to compete.
The market AT LARGE doesn't want an expensive premium revolver, in sufficient volume to make it profitable for Colt.
Freedom Arms is an invalid comparison, a small niche operation that CAN run on the High Price/Low Volume model.
Lesser overhead, smaller company, less convoluted ownership, limited offerings.
The lockwork on a DS is the same as that of the Python, just smaller.
Still the same complexity.
And as far as the best revolvers being made in the past goes, the V-Spring action never held up as well over the long run with extensive use as the Smiths & Rugers did and do. The design originated in an era where few people would put more than a few hundred rounds through a given gun in a lifetime.
In that framework the design held up fine. Many decades later, as people began to shoot them in increasing volume, the difference in longevity between Colt DA revolvers and other designs became more apparent.
In terms of quality of skilled hands-on workmanship, I'd agree the best was in the past, but the very fact that those old Colts DEMANDED labor-intensive hands-on attention is what contributed heavily to their demise.
When labor was cheap, no problem. Nowdays, problem.
Denis
S&W sells literally hundreds of plastic guns for every "premium" revolver they sell. Their higher-end guns are not moving in anywhere near the same volume.
S&W is positioned to still produce comparatively smaller numbers of steel revolvers alongside better movers because they've continually produced steel revolvers all the way along, adapting new manufacturing techniques & technology as they went.
Their designs have been easier to wed to emerging technologies (CNC, MIM) than Colt's older V-Springs, the advantage to begin with is clearly with S&W in that regard.
S&W also has had a continual revolver market presence, with name and image recognition among new generations of revolver users. Again, advantage S&W.
Colt can't make a profit on older designs, they'd have to develop a newer one or revert to the MKV actions, with all the costs associated with new gun startup, and the time & effort needed to build market awareness and acceptance all over again.
A new MKV variant would have the cast/MIM parts, required just to compete.
The market AT LARGE doesn't want an expensive premium revolver, in sufficient volume to make it profitable for Colt.
Freedom Arms is an invalid comparison, a small niche operation that CAN run on the High Price/Low Volume model.
Lesser overhead, smaller company, less convoluted ownership, limited offerings.
The lockwork on a DS is the same as that of the Python, just smaller.
Still the same complexity.
And as far as the best revolvers being made in the past goes, the V-Spring action never held up as well over the long run with extensive use as the Smiths & Rugers did and do. The design originated in an era where few people would put more than a few hundred rounds through a given gun in a lifetime.
In that framework the design held up fine. Many decades later, as people began to shoot them in increasing volume, the difference in longevity between Colt DA revolvers and other designs became more apparent.
In terms of quality of skilled hands-on workmanship, I'd agree the best was in the past, but the very fact that those old Colts DEMANDED labor-intensive hands-on attention is what contributed heavily to their demise.
When labor was cheap, no problem. Nowdays, problem.
Denis
Guillermo
member
while generally true, if you define the market as "high quality double action revolver" it is not being serviced at all.
The buyer has to go elsewhere and the prices for used guns are increasing.
There is no way to know what the market is since there are none in the market.
This is analogous to the small sports car market of the 70's. Just because Triumphs and MGs weren't selling doesn't mean that the market wasn't there. Mazda has sold 400,000 small sports cars in that "dying market"
Guillermo
member
Dpris,
You are quite right.
That would be my call. Or buy Smith's old equipment from when they gave up and started using injection-molded parts.
My point is that while a revolver of Python complexity would be silly for them to produce, I opine that there is a market for a quality, premium revolver.
I also know that a revolver with forged parts can be sold at a profit for a thousand bucks. S&W does it every day.
You are quite right.
That would be my call. Or buy Smith's old equipment from when they gave up and started using injection-molded parts.
My point is that while a revolver of Python complexity would be silly for them to produce, I opine that there is a market for a quality, premium revolver.
I also know that a revolver with forged parts can be sold at a profit for a thousand bucks. S&W does it every day.
Guillermo
member
some of their high end guns use forged parts so we know it can be done
JohnBT
Member
What sells?
"Joe Hopkins, a gun buyer at Green Top Sporting Goods, says the store keeps records of its highest selling firearms, all of which are pistols. The bestsellers:
1. Smith & Wesson Bodyguard, .380 caliber
2. Ruger LCP, .380 caliber
3. Smith & Wesson Sigma, 9 mm
4. Ruger LC9, 9 mm
5. Smith & Wesson Sigma, .40 caliber "
Fwiw, I saw this in a local paper. Green Top Sporting Goods is an old local outfit and is taking over the Gander Mountain building as soon as Gander can get out of town.
John
P.S. - I guess Glocks are too expensive.
"Joe Hopkins, a gun buyer at Green Top Sporting Goods, says the store keeps records of its highest selling firearms, all of which are pistols. The bestsellers:
1. Smith & Wesson Bodyguard, .380 caliber
2. Ruger LCP, .380 caliber
3. Smith & Wesson Sigma, 9 mm
4. Ruger LC9, 9 mm
5. Smith & Wesson Sigma, .40 caliber "
Fwiw, I saw this in a local paper. Green Top Sporting Goods is an old local outfit and is taking over the Gander Mountain building as soon as Gander can get out of town.
John
P.S. - I guess Glocks are too expensive.
Guillermo
member
what is not on the market rarely sells well
Such an astute observation. It does you credit…
But it begs a question. Why is it that they’re none of “them” on the market? Can you explain why apparently no manufacturer is jumping in to correct the situation? If there is a viable demand wouldn’t someone move to take advantage of it?
Guillermo
member
Demand is so feverish right now the manufacturers are going nuts.
Most are at capacity building glock-knockoffs
But even Ruger is at capacity casting wheel guns and filling them with injection-molded parts. (last I heard they had suspended taking new orders)
- Status
