Guillermo
member
they won't even use the opportunity to expand...
I guess you would call them "gun shy"
I guess you would call them "gun shy"
What happened to Colt?
- Thread starter YankeeFlyr
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Guil,
If S&W had to depend solely on high-end models, they'd be outa business in about 5 minutes.
They're fat enough to carry models that don't sell in large numbers, Colt isn't.
As Fuff points out- that market segment is not being serviced simply because it isn't big enough to service profitably.
Remember when S&W back-engineered their high-end breaktops through the Performance Center?
Good quality, classic configuration, NICE guns.
People bought the Italian versions of lesser quality at lower prices without the additional (and unwanted) "safety" features S&W incorporated into their new ones.
Yes, SOME people were willing to pay the higher prices on the breaktops, but do you see the Smiths still catalogued?
The numbers for "classic" Colt DAs are just not there.
Low market interest, high market prices. Those never add up in the long run.
And, lowering quality to lower pricing won't sell to the one market segment who WOULD be interested- Older guys who know the older guns, but who'd flock AWAY from lines to buy a cheapened version of their favorite classic.
And meanwhile, back at the ranch, plastic continues to sell in droves.
Denis
Ruger's hired additional people & they're back to taking orders.
And using MIM parts.
If S&W had to depend solely on high-end models, they'd be outa business in about 5 minutes.
They're fat enough to carry models that don't sell in large numbers, Colt isn't.
As Fuff points out- that market segment is not being serviced simply because it isn't big enough to service profitably.
Remember when S&W back-engineered their high-end breaktops through the Performance Center?
Good quality, classic configuration, NICE guns.
People bought the Italian versions of lesser quality at lower prices without the additional (and unwanted) "safety" features S&W incorporated into their new ones.
Yes, SOME people were willing to pay the higher prices on the breaktops, but do you see the Smiths still catalogued?
The numbers for "classic" Colt DAs are just not there.
Low market interest, high market prices. Those never add up in the long run.
And, lowering quality to lower pricing won't sell to the one market segment who WOULD be interested- Older guys who know the older guns, but who'd flock AWAY from lines to buy a cheapened version of their favorite classic.
And meanwhile, back at the ranch, plastic continues to sell in droves.
Denis
Ruger's hired additional people & they're back to taking orders.
And using MIM parts.
Guillermo
member
I hear what you are saying...but they don't really market them.
After all, in order to extol the virtues they would have to explain how their other wheel guns are crap.
In other words, they don't really try.
Of course there are a lot of little companies that can sell premium 1911s for big money. (what does a 1911 contain, 50 parts?)
I can't prove it, but I think a similar market exists for a high quality double action revolver
Of course there is!
You and I are part of it, as well as several others posting on this thread.
But unlike the considerable number of 1911 fanboys we don't have enough tail to wag any dogs, so we shop the second-hand market for the guns we know are better, at least from our perspective. Most of us were brought up in generations that bought these older guns when they were current production and are well aware of what they represent. But those that are following us have different tastes and likes.
Manufacturers - at least successful ones - keep close attention to what is, and what isn't popular with the larger segments of the overall market. They know that popular entertainment media (TV, movies, video and computer games, etc.) point younger shooters toward black, large magazine capacity, rifles and pistols, and so far as handguns this is what they see in law enforcement officer's holsters.
They also like to rip off a string of shots without paying too much attention to what the holes on their targets look like, or if the total number of holes are equal to the number of shots fired. Rapid, continuous fire is the name of their game. In this environment a revolver of any quality doesn't attract much attention. There are of course exceptions to the rule, but for gun makers most of them are not of substantial importance.
Regardless of what we like, more and more folks seeking something for "pocket protection" are turning toward small, flat, lightweight, double-action pistols with polymer frames. Manufacturers are delighted with this because these pistols represent high profit margins. They look at the bottom lines on they're spread sheets, and this, and only this, dictates where most of the R&D money will go. High quality revolvers don't make a blip.
On the revolver side of the picture there are two kinds of people. Those who understand the realities, and those who refuse to.
But that’s O.K. I’m a stubborn old man who is well past his prime, and I don’t give a rip about what others like or don’t. You should join me.
Guillermo
member
as they should.
I am not saying that a high quality double action revolver would ever rival glocks and the knockoffs. Those guns are cheap to produce and make them round-bales of cash. (and I am happy for them).
The question is, is there enough of a market to be profitable.
I say yes because some people want to buy new and want good stuff. They buy $2000+ 1911s, $2000+ single action revolvers. Surely there is a market for a new high quality double action revolver.
S&W can't do it. They would have to point out the massive inadequacies of their meat and potato revolver so as to sell them. Not good business.
Colt, on the other hand, would not hurt themselves promoting a high quality, non MIM, no-lock double action revolver. And they have an established name from which to launch it.
Sadly, I don't think Colt can find their bung with two hands, an assistant, mirror and a GPS.
Guill,
We've told you repeatedly there is no profitable market for what you want to see.
If you refuse to believe it, put the financing together & find out for yourself.
Otherwise, you're obstinately clinging to a wish and a belief not founded in reality.
Denis
We've told you repeatedly there is no profitable market for what you want to see.
If you refuse to believe it, put the financing together & find out for yourself.
Otherwise, you're obstinately clinging to a wish and a belief not founded in reality.
Denis
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Guillermo
member
and yet S&W dabbles in it.
Guillermo
member
BTW
I never said I wanted to see it.
I am more than happy buying the old stuff.
Better and cheaper...like I like my women
I never said I wanted to see it.
I am more than happy buying the old stuff.
Better and cheaper...like I like my women
Yes indeed, you are correct...
They do dabble.
But they and the others (especially Colt) are not going to make a serious financial commitment, especially in a depressed economy. Plastic is safe, and plastic is sure. Why take the risk? There are specialty custom shops to turn out custom work - at custom prices.
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Here is where I founf the info on crows gun,
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=3:10_to_Yuma_(2007)#Single_Action_Army
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=3:10_to_Yuma_(2007)#Single_Action_Army
For identification purposes, it is preferred the gun is labeled as a "Single Action Army" as opposed to a "Colt 1873" or "Colt Single Action Army" as many companies such as Uberti, Ruger Vaquero, and Beretta have replicated SAAs to the point in which labeling them all as a Colt would be incorrect. Do not label it as a Colt unless 100% positive it IS a Colt. In addition there needs to be made clear a distinction between two types of frames for all SAA type guns. The first is the standard (and ubiquitous) cross pin frame. This is evident by what looks like a screw protruding from the left side of the frame just in front of the cylinder. In order for the cylinder to be released the crosspin is depressed and then this frees the the cylinder rod which can then be pulled from the front of the frame thus the cylinder can be removed completely from the frame for cleaning etc. The second, is the older black powder type frame, which uses a conventional threaded screw which is on the underside of the frame in front of the cylinder, the cross pin core design purpose was just to facilitate easier disassembly of the gun. The crosspin frame wasn't widely available until the late 1890's.
The Single Action Army is seen fitted with many different types of grips, the most common being wood, Vulcanite (early black plastic), Ivory, Pearl, and Stag Horn. Noting these differences is helpful to those visiting IMFDB, and is thus encouraged.
The Single Action Army is seen fitted with many different types of grips, the most common being wood, Vulcanite (early black plastic), Ivory, Pearl, and Stag Horn. Noting these differences is helpful to those visiting IMFDB, and is thus encouraged.
Interesting...I just came back from a day at Colt, where I went through the factory for the 2nd time in a year. I have spent a lot of time with Colt executives, engineers and people on the line. We have been giving input to Colt engineers for more than 2 years, and they've done an incredible job.
IMHO, current Colt 1911s are among the best 1911s currently available. At SHOOTING GALLERY we chose the Colt Rail Gun as the most significant pistol of 1911. I bought one, took it through GUNSITE and it was perfect. I just ordered a 9mm Defender, the 3-inch 1911. I would say the Talo custom Wiley Clapp Lightweight Series 70 Commander is among the best 1911s I've ever shot...heck, out of the box it was as good as my Wayne Novak-built lightweight Commander (an S&W, BTW), which is every bit as good as Col. Cooper's personal carry lightweight Colt Commander, which I was privileged to put a lot of rounds through before the Colonel passed.
Revolvers? I have walked every step of he Model P line and I know what goes into those guns. The 7 1/2 inch New Frontiers are wonderful guns, and I will have one of the .44 Specials.
No innovations? I shot the SP901 .308 both in proto and production versions. Has the potential to be a game-changer. The bolt gun? As slick as the Barrett MRAD, my favorite.
One other point...Colt is NOT a sponsor! I have not gotten a penny from the company. I just admire the Herculean effort to bring a great American marque back to life.
Michael B
IMHO, current Colt 1911s are among the best 1911s currently available. At SHOOTING GALLERY we chose the Colt Rail Gun as the most significant pistol of 1911. I bought one, took it through GUNSITE and it was perfect. I just ordered a 9mm Defender, the 3-inch 1911. I would say the Talo custom Wiley Clapp Lightweight Series 70 Commander is among the best 1911s I've ever shot...heck, out of the box it was as good as my Wayne Novak-built lightweight Commander (an S&W, BTW), which is every bit as good as Col. Cooper's personal carry lightweight Colt Commander, which I was privileged to put a lot of rounds through before the Colonel passed.
Revolvers? I have walked every step of he Model P line and I know what goes into those guns. The 7 1/2 inch New Frontiers are wonderful guns, and I will have one of the .44 Specials.
No innovations? I shot the SP901 .308 both in proto and production versions. Has the potential to be a game-changer. The bolt gun? As slick as the Barrett MRAD, my favorite.
One other point...Colt is NOT a sponsor! I have not gotten a penny from the company. I just admire the Herculean effort to bring a great American marque back to life.
Michael B
BTW BTW, had a chance to handle, but not shoot, one of the USFA "Hand of God" single actions from "3:10 To Yuma" while hanging out with Thell Reed a couple of years ago. Thell works with Crowe on gun stuff. Was an instant case of pure gun lust!
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Guillermo
member
You are right
And Colt would screw it up anyway
YankeeFlyr
Member
Old Dog, that's a SWEET pic!
JohnBT
Member
"I’m a stubborn old man who is well past his prime, and I don’t give a rip about what others like or don’t. You should join me."
Does buying an early-to-mid-80s SAA in .44 Special count as swimming against the tide? I did that yesterday. It'll be here soon and I won't have to worry about storing a box or hurting one of the revered 1st or 2nd generation guns.
I shoot with some guys who bring their youngsters. I think they're going to love this as much as shooting hot Black Hills ammo in my 4" '67 Python. No box for that one either.
I don't have anything against collectors, but boxes make great targets.
John
Does buying an early-to-mid-80s SAA in .44 Special count as swimming against the tide? I did that yesterday. It'll be here soon and I won't have to worry about storing a box or hurting one of the revered 1st or 2nd generation guns.
I shoot with some guys who bring their youngsters. I think they're going to love this as much as shooting hot Black Hills ammo in my 4" '67 Python. No box for that one either.
I don't have anything against collectors, but boxes make great targets.
John
I found this on the firing line forum, with links, No reason not to believe the guy who apparantlly looked into it.
Here's a few movie stills of Crowe's revolver in 3:10 to Yuma
They used a number of different revolvers in the movie. I have read
numbers anywhere from 5 to 9 and that both Colt and USFA's where
used. One of the guns was made for Russell Crowe and retained
by him. Thell Reed also has one in his collection. He was the
armorer for the film. Joe Perkins talks on his website about two
that are for sale. A non-shooter for $12K and a shooting prop
for $20K.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod2.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod1.png
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod.jpg
Also a pic of one of the prop guns, this one obviously a Colt --
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod3.jpg
It's very possible that other brands were used in the filming of the movie considering thy used 5-9 guns. Like in the French connection where they used 17 Pontiac Lemans when shooting the car chase, Si all I am saying is it's possible that they used both types depending on the shot they were taking, not just 1 gun.
Here's a few movie stills of Crowe's revolver in 3:10 to Yuma
They used a number of different revolvers in the movie. I have read
numbers anywhere from 5 to 9 and that both Colt and USFA's where
used. One of the guns was made for Russell Crowe and retained
by him. Thell Reed also has one in his collection. He was the
armorer for the film. Joe Perkins talks on his website about two
that are for sale. A non-shooter for $12K and a shooting prop
for $20K.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod2.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod1.png
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod.jpg
Also a pic of one of the prop guns, this one obviously a Colt --
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/doctorxring/HandofGod3.jpg
It's very possible that other brands were used in the filming of the movie considering thy used 5-9 guns. Like in the French connection where they used 17 Pontiac Lemans when shooting the car chase, Si all I am saying is it's possible that they used both types depending on the shot they were taking, not just 1 gun.
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You shouldn't, but I'll let you do it, just this time...
By the way I presume you know that at one time the manual that came with Colt's SAA 's specifically said that they were for collectors, and for that reason should never be shot.
You probably shouldn't but since the kids will likely have such a good time, go ahead.
Ah... Before you do that I know of a case where a Colt Python box for the 2 1/2" blued version sold at auction for over $300.
But I wasn't the bidder...
Guill,
There's documentation for the USFA, no direct documentation for Colt involvement I can find.
We knew there'd be more than one gun made & used.
The bottom photo has no attribution & could just as easily have been put together by a movie fan who wanted a lookalike.
Regardless, I was just pointing out in passing that Colts are rarely used in the movie industry today, in response to your initial Crowe post.
Denis
There's documentation for the USFA, no direct documentation for Colt involvement I can find.
We knew there'd be more than one gun made & used.
The bottom photo has no attribution & could just as easily have been put together by a movie fan who wanted a lookalike.
Regardless, I was just pointing out in passing that Colts are rarely used in the movie industry today, in response to your initial Crowe post.
Denis
JohnBT
Member
"By the way I presume you know that at one time the manual that came with Colt's SAA 's specifically said that they were for collectors, and for that reason should never be shot."
No kidding. I didn't know that.
I would wear out all of my guns if I could afford the ammo. Guns are cheap, it's the ammo that's expensive.
"a Colt Python box" for $300.
Speaking of crap shoots, was it a real box or one of the ebay reproduction boxes? Or maybe it was a real box with an ebay reproduction label.
John
P.S. - I have a 4" Police-Service Six I bought in '85 that gets most of the hot .357.
One father and son liked the Python and Black Hills ammo so much they showed up the next time with a new stainless .357 Ruger. He said he looked at Pythons first, but the prices were just a little high.
No kidding. I didn't know that.
I would wear out all of my guns if I could afford the ammo. Guns are cheap, it's the ammo that's expensive.
"a Colt Python box" for $300.
Speaking of crap shoots, was it a real box or one of the ebay reproduction boxes? Or maybe it was a real box with an ebay reproduction label.
John
P.S. - I have a 4" Police-Service Six I bought in '85 that gets most of the hot .357.
One father and son liked the Python and Black Hills ammo so much they showed up the next time with a new stainless .357 Ruger. He said he looked at Pythons first, but the prices were just a little high.
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In '93 at a Colt armorer's school I asked the Colt guy teaching it why the Peacemaker was so expensive.
AT THE TIME (and I emphasize AT THE TIME), his response was that the gun was an antiquated design, the lawyers actually wanted Colt to drop it entirely because it had no safety, it was deliberately priced high to put it into the collector market because "Collectors don't usually shoot them."
The Peacemaker I acquired a year or so later did mention something in the manual about not shooting it.
Colt, AT THE TIME, considered it a collector gun, to be put in the safe & not fired. Which is one of the reasons the guts were less than smooth on guns from the period.
I really emphasize AT THE TIME because Colt's attitude has changed since, and current guns are built with the expectation that some or most WILL be fired.
The pricing has fluctuated since then, and it currently remains high because it's an expensive gun to build, the way Colt does it.
At one time Colt had to raise the price because production costs had risen to the point where they were actually losing money on each gun.
I don't want anybody running off on a tangent based on what I've said here.
Denis
AT THE TIME (and I emphasize AT THE TIME), his response was that the gun was an antiquated design, the lawyers actually wanted Colt to drop it entirely because it had no safety, it was deliberately priced high to put it into the collector market because "Collectors don't usually shoot them."
The Peacemaker I acquired a year or so later did mention something in the manual about not shooting it.
Colt, AT THE TIME, considered it a collector gun, to be put in the safe & not fired. Which is one of the reasons the guts were less than smooth on guns from the period.
I really emphasize AT THE TIME because Colt's attitude has changed since, and current guns are built with the expectation that some or most WILL be fired.
The pricing has fluctuated since then, and it currently remains high because it's an expensive gun to build, the way Colt does it.
At one time Colt had to raise the price because production costs had risen to the point where they were actually losing money on each gun.
I don't want anybody running off on a tangent based on what I've said here.
Denis
Let me play a little devil's advocate
1) One reason why others may not be in this market is the fact it is easier to make money elsewhere. Just because it is easier to make money elsewhere does not mean that money cannot be made in the Premium Revolver sector, it just means it won't be as easy or as much. In other words, S&W selling the M&P might bring them 30% profit per unit with little marketing while the M27 brings them 15% profit. Obviously you will focus on the M&P, but that doesn't mean the M27 isn't profitable.
2) When talking about the S&W "Classics" and how they do not sell as well as the M&P, keep in mind those are not true "Classics". Speaking for myself only, I could deal with the MIM and cast parts, what I can't live with is the stupid lock. It changes the whole look. Take that lock out and I bet it sells better even with the MIM parts.
3) Colt did shoot themselves in the foot (pun intended) for their business model as a whole. With that said couldn't they make a new revolver line all together and never even use the words Python, Anaconda, Diamondback ,etc.
1) One reason why others may not be in this market is the fact it is easier to make money elsewhere. Just because it is easier to make money elsewhere does not mean that money cannot be made in the Premium Revolver sector, it just means it won't be as easy or as much. In other words, S&W selling the M&P might bring them 30% profit per unit with little marketing while the M27 brings them 15% profit. Obviously you will focus on the M&P, but that doesn't mean the M27 isn't profitable.
2) When talking about the S&W "Classics" and how they do not sell as well as the M&P, keep in mind those are not true "Classics". Speaking for myself only, I could deal with the MIM and cast parts, what I can't live with is the stupid lock. It changes the whole look. Take that lock out and I bet it sells better even with the MIM parts.
3) Colt did shoot themselves in the foot (pun intended) for their business model as a whole. With that said couldn't they make a new revolver line all together and never even use the words Python, Anaconda, Diamondback ,etc.
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