What if, from the LEO point of view.

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What if, from the LEO point of view.


We see threads, which place the Average Joe in what if, situations so now lets look at one from the patrol officers POV and see how you would react.

Based on actual circumstances which happened to me recently, some details have been changed incase… well you get the idea.

It’s late night, around 0030 hrs. You are policing a small town not far from a large town located on a major artery. You are the only officer on duty inside the city; county has two Deputies on duty, somewhere. You are located in a parking lot where you have been sitting in your car out front of a fast-food business while they close up for the night, then waiting making sure the workers get in their cars and on their ways safely (a routine which I do nightly in my town). You are about 25 feet from the front of the store so the building lights are providing you with enough light to do paperwork w/o illuminating the inside of your car blind your outside view. The window is down because it is humid outside and you can hear the surrounding noises.

Now everyone has gone and you are sitting in the car, sipping coffee doing your reports for the evening in anticipation of ending shift soon. A vehicle, a small truck with tinted windows slows, pulls into the parking lot, turns around in front of you, then backs into a parking space to your left hand side about 5 spaces from you, lights go off and the truck is placed into park. Truck is now facing in the same direction as your patrol car. You see movement inside the truck; the driver’s door opens, out comes a rather large male dressed in dark pants, a button up shirt but wearing a ball cap. He walks around the front of the truck immediately you spot on his belt a full size auto loader with double mag pouch; in this case it was a Glock in a plastic holster and a plastic mag pouch.

You see no badge in belt or anywhere else for that matter.

He is approaching you from around the front of his truck, weak hand in his pocket. Weapon hand pointed down at a normal angle when you walk with hands out of pockets.

Passenger door then opens, out pops another male, small wiry almost skinny-framed guy dressed in a similar fashion. He too is armed with a full size Glock with double mag pouch, but this fella has on his belt what appears to be a cell phone and another item, which appears to be a duty size pepper, spray container.

No badge either.

You have about 1.5 to 3.0 seconds to react, what would you do.



I will chime in later with my reaction and what really happened with this story.
 
C'mon, make it intersting

You've a cop sitting with in a parking lot not far from a just closed business.

Add this variable. You are a citizen shop owner who closed his shop a few minutes before the shop you mentioned closed. You are sitting in your car in a similar place while totaling up his receipts for the day. You are waiting for your GF/SO, whatever, to show up and then go out for a late dinner.

How is the required response different for a legally armed civilian?

If I was the cop in your situation, I'd have drawn my weapon and then said something like you left your lights on... Whoever didn't look would get double tapped first.

I'm of the opinion that if the citizen did the same, he'd be standing trial for shooting two undercover cops who didn't ID themselves... Ignorance is no excuse, eh?
 
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I guess I should of said this in my original post but here in GA there is, and I know some folks will cry foul over it, but there is two standards for self defense.

For civilians, the court will only apply OCGA 16-3-21 to determine if the shooting was justified.

Officer’s involved shootings the court must apply OCGA 16-3-21 and OCGA 17-4-20.

I know not all here will know both of these laws as they are covered extensively in the Academy so you may want to look them up on the internet read them then apply them and your react to this situation.

And remember were just friendly playing what if, I’m not looking to create anything here other than friendly deep adult discussion from people who do think about this stuff.
 
Well in Maryland, you'd pull your sidearm, hop out and tell them to freeze and arrest them on the spot.


Ya' see, citizens have NO rights in Maryland to carry openly or concealed.


Pat yourself on the back for a nice easy collar. :neener:
 
I would think that if the two guys wanted to kill you, they would have done so, already. We would also read about it in "Legal and Political" forum. May be they are the owner of the place with his detail.

For me, I probably will grab my pistol, yelling at them to freeze, and asking them what they want.

Does cop car have an emergency button to call for back-up, or help, sort of like the On-Star thingy?

-Pat
 
This being PA, they haven't done anything illegal yet. Remove myself from the patrol car and inform the two that the shop just closed and tell them to have a nice night.

Think about this rationally, bad guys probably aren't likely to drop money on a kydex holster, let alone a holster at all and they're not likely to display it infront of a cop if they don't want attention.
 
Bail bondsmen / bounty hunters?

From what was described, I would think that it's likely that these two guys are bail bondsmen and/or bounty hunters, probably approaching the officer for assistance in locating someone or an address. If they were police officers, they would surely know better than to approach a patrol officer in that manner. If they were bad guys and/or wanted to shoot a police officer, they would most likely have been more secretive in their approach or simply started shooting immediately. These two seem to be guys who can legally carry firearms in the performance of their duties, but are untrained and/or tactically unsound. This describes many bail bondsmen and bounty hunters that I have had contact with. (Notice I said MANY, not ALL.)

Now, as for what I would do if I was the patrolman? I would have used my vehicle to create distance and circled behind them to put me at the tactical advantage. If they didn't start shooting at me by this time, then I would approach them to find out what their business was and would explain to them that coming at me from the rear is not a good idea, just so they would know the next time they approached an officer.
 
I'm willing to guess that these guys are driving an armored truck and is at the store to transport the money to the bank.
 
If I was the cop in your situation, I'd have drawn my weapon and then said something like you left your lights on... Whoever didn't look would get double tapped first.

:what:
 
Inform dispatch, request County show up, flood them with your takedowns & spot, get out of the squad car, be ready to draw and polity ask them what going on.

Of course this is with time to think about the situation.... :banghead:
 
I'm willing to guess that these guys are driving an armored truck and is at the store to transport the money to the bank.
If there is an ATM inside or in front of the store, I'd buy that - I do know some ATM service outfits who use armored pickups, and dress casual. I would be less worried that the two are carrying professional looking weapons.gear, identical dress and gear means possibly security guards, just checking with local LE. I would dfeinately keep my duty weapon availabel, or ask them to "stop there, would ya?" in a friendly voice.
 
Good night! Are people really that jumpy around here? Just cause somebody has a gun doesn’t make him a badguy.

I’d handle it by stepping out of the car and asking if I could help them while paying attention to both individuals for any strange actions. This particular situation reads to me like a couple of either off duty/plainclothed officers or armed citizens (“goodguysâ€), both of which are welcome to come visit with me any time. I wouldn’t be so foolish as to be complacent though…
 
Loud verbal commands. "Both of you, stop right there. Put your hands in the air." Simultaneously drawing my weapon. If they comply, I would hold the weapon in a low ready position while assessing my next step. I'm not a LEO, how'd I do?
 
Oh heck, just double tap both and get it over with. :evil:

On second thought, maybe it might be best to draw your weapon, keep it out of sight and speak first as you exit the car. Ask them if you can be of assistance. No answer and your gun comes up. Still no answer and you then order them to the ground. If they comply disarm them and call for the deputies for B/U. Keep them there unitl help arrives.
 
Okay…

In my best Paul Harvey voice, “and now, the rest of the story…â€

Having come from a large PD in the metro Atlanta area where we still rode in one man cars, it was not uncommon for us to grab a cup of coffee and park right out front of a 24 hour stop-n-rob and catch up on the mountain of paper work which started piling up yesterday two hours before end of shift. We had limo tint on our windows and I always kept mine rolled up, all but a slight crack on both sides which would allow in ambient sounds.

I also kept my SIG 229 in .357SIG in the car with me, which stayed in my lap, unholstered when in this type of situation.

More than once I had folks walk up to my car, causing my 6th sense to go off and they were covered by my SIG quickly.

So here we are in the situation I described.

I’m sitting much the same, as I would have while on watch in Atlanta South.

The first guy didn’t really cause me any concern beyond the usual, hmmm… he’s got a gun, in a holster. Now my focus went from his face to his hands, one in pocket one out. My strong hand quickly found my P229 and muzzle was pointed at him while still keeping it low inside the car out of his view.

My window was down so I offered up a “Howdy, what can I do for you, sir?â€

Before he could answer the passenger door opens, my eyes quickly go to the movement and see the second armed guy.

The driver looks back quickly at his buddy getting out of the veh. My veh. Is running but in park my door is locked but the window is down, I elect to stay inside my car for extra cover, and a quick escape.

When the driver turned to his buddy I shifted my position in the car and angled my body more towards them and now the gun was up in my lap grip tightened and my finger was on the trigger.

The driver then offered up a greeting and asked if I was busy, he wanted to ask me some questions about……………………………………… becoming a cop!

Both he and his buddy wanted to enter LE and we spent the next 30 minutes chewing the fat about them becoming cops. I eventually got out of the car, about five minutes into the chat, I’m sure both saw the second pistol I had been cradling in my lap the whole time.

Nothing really exceptional about the incident, just two guys out at mid night wanting to be cops. When they drove off I saw they had a set if dash mounted red and clear lights.

The smaller guy had a small scanner on his belt which was I am positive scanning every PS channel in six states as the thing never shut up during our little talk.
All the surrounding counties are serviced by Volunteer FD’s so I assume they ran with one, hence the emergency lights, scanners etc…

:rolleyes:
 
I hope you don’t mind if I add a what if…

Background:
It’s about 0300 in the morning, pitch black and still hotter than blazes. You’re about fifteen to twenty miles from the next officer and in the middle of a bunch of south Texas scrub brush. The area is heavily traveled by both illegal aliens and dope smugglers. Dope smugglers carry their dope in regular backpacks or large duffle bags. The militant arm of the drug cartel has spread the word that any dope smugglers that give up their dope without a struggle will be killed.

Situation:
You get a report of possible illegal traffic along a particular route, so you go to investigate. This particular route is a power line clear-cut. You decide to hide ahead of where these people will probably come out of the brush and use your night vision goggles to see if they’re coming. After about half an hour of waiting you see what looks like people walking towards you off in the distance. You watch a little bit longer to make sure and finally determine that seven to ten people are coming your way. At least half of them look like they have backpacks on and the last guy has something like a stick. You figure you’ve got one to two minutes to set up your ambush. What do you do?
 
For those of you said"double tap em both."how un-tactical.....always put at least one shot on each guy before a follow up..... :rolleyes:
My first thought would probably be..."these guys just came back from an IDPA match....."not.."hey these guys are super cop wanna bees"
just the fact that these guys approched a cop like that is scary..they're pretty clueless if you ask me.I carry and if I do approach a cop,even if it's just to shoot the BS, I certainly don't "show off" my gun....good way to get shot,or at LEAST hassled....
 
You watch a little bit longer to make sure and finally determine that seven to ten people are coming your way. At least half of them look like they have backpacks on and the last guy has something like a stick. You figure you’ve got one to two minutes to set up your ambush. What do you do?



7 to 10 unknown risks coming your way, you are by yourself, backup is for all intents and purposes is nonexistent, you know you are dealing with potential gun/knife/insert weapon here by your description, they ain’t going peacefully if they are bad guys…

Ambush?

By yourself?

Not much of an ambush… live to fight another day, pick your battles wisely, that’s not a wise choice in my opinion.
 
Criminy! Why ever would a cop draw down on a couple of innocent-looking civilians openly carrying weapons?

Sure, be cautious, but drawing and ordering them to the ground is an overreaction anywhere but California.
 
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7 to 10 unknown risks coming your way, you are by yourself, backup is for all intents and purposes is nonexistent, you know you are dealing with potential gun/knife/insert weapon here by your description, they ain’t going peacefully if they are bad guys… Ambush? By yourself? Not much of an ambush… live to fight another day, pick your battles wisely, that’s not a wise choice in my opinion.
Understandable response. Let me paint you into a corner here; It is your job to take those 7-10 into custody,or at the bare minimum, establish their legitimacy to be doing what they're doing. What do you do now?
 
Wow. Mixed responses.

Until the folks in question show any criminal-type behavior, there's nothing to be alarmed about.

But two folks out at midnight...Hummm...
 
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