What is Kel-Tec's secret?

[Plan2Live]

While nibbling over-priced beef jerky and perusing the Gun Show this weekend I ran across another Kel-Tec P11 on the table. I am sort of looking for a smallish, 9mm, hammer fired (non-1911 style) pistol for alternate conceal carry. I have fired the P11 once so I picked this one up to give it a look over. I have looked up specs on many other pistols while considering this possible purchase and it seems Kel-Tec makes just about the smallest, thinnest, hammer fired 9mm out there. Based on mutiple posts here, Kel-Tec enjoys a pretty good reputation for quality and reliability. Many other manufacturers don't even come close to Kel-Tec's dimensions with .380s let alone 9mm. Which brings me back to my qustion.

What does Kel-Tec know that other manufacturers don't know to be able to make such a small, reliable 9mm? Does Kel-Tec have some secret metalurgy formula or are they just willing to take a chance with thinner dimensions holding up to 9mm pressures?

 

[kokapelli]

There are others like the CM9 and the PM9 for example. Not hammer fired but much better shooters in my opinion.

 

[Mr. Doughnut]

I cannot speak to KelTec's trade secrets, but I can speak to the accuracy and reliability of the P11. Mine had some teething problems, but KelTec made everything right. It is a superb CCW/back-up weapon in my view. That said, the P11 is not comfortable to shoot -- the tip of the trigger pinches your finger a bit -- and it takes a lot of range time (read: hundreds of rounds) to get the feel of weapon and to allow the trigger to smooth out, which it does. Using a cheap glove from the local dollar store (I like the grippy type) makes hours at the range a piece of cake. My LGS sells new P11s for about $270. That's lot of bang for the buck. Another plus: The P11 also accepts S&W Model 59 mags. I don't think you can go wrong with a P11. If you get one and it still hiccups after a couple of hundred rounds, send it back. Give the factory a little time. In my case the round trip was exactly 30 days, but well worth it. In my opinion, the P11 is under rated. It's a very good gun. Light, simple, safe, and surprisingly accurate.

Mr. Doughnut

 

[Plan2Live]

I don't think I will end up with the Kel-Tec, just asking the question. I've looked at the Kahrs but I have a hang-up with carrying a Striker fired weapon with a round chambered. I've been carrying an XDm for a few months now and I'm just not 100% comfortable with carrying that action. I'm not trying to sway anyone else or justify my position. Yeah, yeah, bugger hook, bang switch, all that, but none of that settles MY nerves. I'm sure plenty of skydivers will testify about the saftey of that sport but you couldn't convince me to try it until the plane is going down with zero glide slope.

Given that, back to the original topic, why can't/doesn't the Walther PPK, Sig 232, etc. come in 9mm when they seem to have larger dimensions than the Kel-Tec? Is Kel-Tec simply taking a chance no one else is willing to take?

 

[RinkRat]

Kel-Tec's do get good reviews and their CS seems to be second to none. I would trust one of their PF9's or P11's over Kahr's PM/CM9 any day if I had to pick one or the other.

 

[rcmodel]

or are they just willing to take a chance with thinner dimensions holding up to 9mm pressures?

That!

George Kellgren has been broke before, so I don't think potential lawsuits over something that he thinks won't happen even phase him.

In short, he is confident his designs are safe, and is welling to put his money where his mouth is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kellgren

rc

 

[Alec]

Given that, back to the original topic, why can't/doesn't the Walther PPK, Sig 232, etc. come in 9mm when they seem to have larger dimensions than the Kel-Tec? Is Kel-Tec simply taking a chance no one else is willing to take?

Since they are blowback pistols, the PPK and P232 have fixed barrels. The 9x17 (.380 ACP) approaches the maximum practical pressure for that action. The Keltecs are short recoil (the barrel tilts) and so are able to fire a higher pressure cartridge without requiring a very high slide weight.

9x18 is generally the most powerful cartridge you will see in a blowback pistol, with the exception of a few that tend to have blocky, heavy slides.

 

[gbelleh]

There are lots of 9mm pistols in the same size range as Kel-Tec. Kahr, Sig 290, Kimber Solo, Beretta Nano, even the old Colt Pocket 9 and the Rohrbaugh R9.

The Walther PPK and Sig 232 are much older designs, but there are plenty of newer pocket sized 9mms out there today.

 

[rcmodel]

The problem is, the Walther PPK and SIG 232 are not and never were 9mm, they are .32 ACP or .380 ACP.

rc

 

[orionengnr]

What does Kel-Tec know that other manufacturers don't know to be able to make such a small, reliable 9mm?

Having owned four Kel-Tecs, none of which worked correctly, I would say that Kel-Tec knows nothing at all.

 

[Casefull]

I bought a p11 from a cop...it was his backup gun. I was so impressed with it that I now also own 3 pf9s. Nicer pistol than the p11 and also thinner. I have kimbers and everything else including wilson combat but I would not look further than the pf9 for a reliable small 9mm.

 

[kokapelli]

Kel-Tec's do get good reviews and their CS seems to be second to none. I would trust one of their PF9's or P11's over Kahr's PM/CM9 any day if I had to pick one or the other.

I had a PF9 and a PM9 and the PF9 is long gone because the PM9 out shot it in every respect.

 

[jeffmack]

They aren't the only one who makes small, reliable pistols. Ruger makes p3at's too!

 

[JohnBT]

The secret? George Kellgren is one smart son of a gun. He's been thinking up stuff for decades and then making it.

 

[2wheels]

I'd say KelTecs rep for quality and reliability is maybe 50/50... For every KelTec owner that loves their product, I've met another that hated them.

KelTec caters to a certain market, and that's not a bad thing. Did you pay $1000 for your PF9? No? Then don't cry too hard if it has some trouble! The one thing I DO hear KelTec having a good rep for is their CS, so I wouldn't worry too much about buying one of their products.

 

[MachIVshooter]

George Kellgren has been broke before, so I don't think potential lawsuits over something that he thinks won't happen even phase him.

In short, he is confident his designs are safe, and is welling to put his money where his mouth is.

This.

While they're not the only ones on the market now, he did pioneer the ultra-light, ultra-compact designs. Some imitated, others simply ripped off the whole dang thing **cough*Ruger*cough**

Kellgran is a dreamer, but also a brilliant mechanical engineer and savvy businessman. His vision and prudence has turned that once-small company in Cocoa, Fl into one of the largest handgun manufacturers in the country (#3, I believe, after S&W and Ruger). They're biggest problem the last few years has been keeping up with demand.

 

[TennJed]

I have owned a pf9, p11, and p3at and all have been spectacular and very reliable. I did sell the pf9 only because I prefer the p11.

I have become quite a fan boy of kel tec. They put out a wonderful product that happens to be very affordable. They only knock I have is the bluing is not good. But honestly I have other guns that look good and the simple, ugly worn look has grown on me.

Oh did I mention reliable? I know a lot of people say they are not range toys but I probably shoot them more than any other gun. The recoil is not as bad as a "ruger only" 45 colt or a snub nose 357.

Did I mention reliable? They shoot my lead cast reloads without a problem.

As far as the other companies that make similar products. There really is not any I know of that can compare to the p11. I may be wrong be I can't find another 12 round 9pm that size

 

[Onward Allusion]

No secret. Kel Tecs aren't range guns. They are meant to be carried a lot and not often shot. They also aren't rated for a steady diet of +P rounds, not that many people would should +P out of these little poly guns on a regular basis.

I have five KT's and each one of them has a couple/few hundred rounds down the pipe. I doubt that I will ever have more than 1,000 rounds through any one of them throughout their entire lifetimes.

They are ugly, poorly finished, bare bones utilitarian, & inexpensive - but they work and serve their purpose.

 

[saturno_v]

They are ugly, poorly finished, bare bones utilitarian, & inexpensive - but they work and serve their purpose.

I second that.....for ~250 dollars you can take home an extremely reliable, mechanical well designed and light pocket piece, very accurate enough within its intended range. Excellent CS.

Whoever tell you that you "need" to spend the extra dough for a Kahr for a pocket pistol is lying.....maybe "want" but definitely not "need".....

Kel Tecs aren't range guns. They are meant to be carried a lot and not often shot

True...however we should point out that there are quite a lot of P11 that did past the 10K round mark and still singing....

 

[RhinoDefense]

Kel-Tec's machinery is lubricated with tears of a virgin before they start production.

 

[The Sarge]

The KelTec design is very good and I am a fan of the engineering and customer support.
The manufacturing processes is poor (at best) and allows the cheap price.
Trade off is it (manufacturing process) is hit or miss which KelTec gun you will get. "I fired a kabillion rounds with not one error" or "Gunsmith project"....
So when you purchase a KelTec you may as well just say "I am putting $250 on red.....spin the wheel".

KelTec Inc. occupies a building that is about the same size as my barn/shop.

So they are small and keep overhead low.

I own many KelTecs in all models.

 

[PabloJ]

At recent show there was one next to Bulgarian Makarov. Makarov is to Keltec what BMW is to Trabant!

 

[451 Detonics]

People badmouth the Kel-Tec even tho I really doubt many of the naysayers have shot one, much less owned one...such is info on the errornet. I keep seeing claims of how Kahrs are much better but as a gunstore owner I sent far more Kahrs in for work than I did Kel-Tecs. I have never seen a Kahr that was more accurate either...they are about equal.

The trigger on my PF-9 is superior to any Kahr I have tried as well with a measured 5/12 pound DA trigger pull. Do they have some recoil? Of course, they are a very light 9mm but it is more than manageable. Reliable? My PF-9 has over 200 rounds of 9mm and another 4000 rounds of 22 through it with zero gun related malfunctions.Accurate? It will shoot better than most people are capable of shooting.

Is the finish a nice high polish blue? No...it is a working gun who's builders decided to lower the cost on by not spending the time polishing. This has zero effect on how the gun performs.

Bottom line is the gun works, is accurate and reliable, and are priced right.

 

[JohnBT]

"no finish protection on the Kel Tec's as you know"

That's not entirely accurate.

I bought a fairly early P-32 (in the 12xxx range). The slide and barrel were hard chromed from the factory. I carried it daily for years and years and only recently sold it because I only carried a Rohrbaugh.

My P-32 still looked nearly new. You just have to buy the right tool for the job.

John

 

[JohnBT]

I didn't misunderstand, you stated an absolute...

""no finish protection on the Kel Tec's as you know""

...which is not entirely true. Some of them do have finish protection when delivered to the dealer.


"The hard chroming is farmed out to a local plating foundry."

It was 10 years ago when I bought my P-32, which was the last time I checked.

John