What is the ARGUMENT for why one in chamber is dangerous?

[Duke of Doubt]

Gunship69: "Remember, a bad guy will already have HIS weapon out, whether it's a gun, knife, bat, etc."

Not necessarily. And even if he does, you may be well-advised to take cover. For example, if while hiking in the woods I am surprised by a non-hunter with a shotgun, I can step behind a tree, draw my pistol, rack the slide and shout, "Hello? Who's there? I'm armed." Much better than trying to draw a chamber-loaded pistol faster than the man, who may turn out to be a plainclothes detective, can raise his gun and blow you out of your gumrubbahs.

Gunship69: "If you think you can get your weapon out, rack the slide with your jaw, and get off a good shot in less than 2.4 seconds, you must be a better man than me."

Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Gunship69]

And what if you are walking out of the grocery store with bags in hand and some guy comes up with a knife and wants your car keys? Ever heard of a Tueller drill?

 

[Kindrox]

you cannot be 100% positive that your gun is loaded

In our house SD handguns only have one condition - loaded, safety off, hammer down. Oddly, our SD handguns always stay in the same condition as they are left.

If you think you can get your weapon out, rack the slide with your jaw, and get off a good shot in less than 2.4 seconds, you must be a better man than me.

I don't think I can be sure of having enough time and freedom of movement to do that either, which is why we carry loaded, safety off, hammer down.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Gunship69: "And what if you are walking out of the grocery store with bags in hand and some guy comes up with a knife and wants your car keys?"

And what if a sniper tags me from 300 meters before I see him?

In post 15 to this thread, above, I said:

"I suppose it might minutely increase risk, though that risk is offset by the advantage gained from the single-action first shot.

I would feel very unprotected not being able to carry under some circumstances in which I find myself on a regular basis. But those situations do not generally involve the possibility of sudden attack at close range.

I can arm myself against the vast majority of situations calling for a gun, and keep the chamber empty. I cannot arm myself against all possibilities, including being shot from an unseen location by long range rifle. That doesn't mean I haven't armed myself appropriately against those threats I consider real and which I can do something about. I just don't consider a little old lady whipping out a gun at two foot distance a very realistic threat."

 

[Gunship69]

"You cannot be 100% positive your gun is loaded"?!?! So let me get this straight. I'm at home, safe and sound. I load a magazine into my handgun, then chamber a round. I check my chamber loaded indicator, and do a press check. Ok, got it, my gun is loaded. Then I stick it in my holster and head on down to Home Depot. Now, some of you are saying I can't be 100% positive my gun is loaded! I think I would be more positive it is loaded then if I had do draw it in a panic situation because someone is coming at me with a knife, and THEN rack the slide! How can you be positive it is loaded then? No time for a presscheck! What if the slide release got bumped and the magazine was only slightly unseated? Then the slide would not strip a round out of the mag. What's the loudest sound in a gunfight? Click!

 

[Gunship69]

It's your life Duke of Doubt, but I think most people on THR will have to admit that being robbed in a grocery store parking lot is a more realistic scenario than being shot by a sniper from 300 yards. You are carrying a gun, but you are only preparing for the best of situations. You should be preparing for the worst of situations. It's like flying an airplane. You hope you never have to crash land, but if you have to...you better be prepared!

 

[rbernie]

I think that the DoD's point is that, for his environment, he has performed a threat assessment and that carryin' with an empty chamber suits his needs.

Somebody in a different location than he, with different surroundings and habits, may find otherwise.

That's OK.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Gunship69: "It's your life Duke of Doubt, but I think most people on THR will have to admit that being robbed in a grocery store parking lot is a more realistic scenario than being shot by a sniper from 300 yards. You are carrying a gun, but you are only preparing for the best of situations. You should be preparing for the worst of situations."

When I shop in grocery stores, I am very aware of my surroundings when I choose my parking spot, when I exit the car, when I cross the distance between the car and the store, while in the store, when I exit, when I approach my car, and so forth. I use a shopping cart, btw, and do not carry anything in my hands. When I do use a shopping bag, I carry it in my left hand. Getting surprised at close range with my hands full really isn't in the cards. On the other hand, getting ambushed and tagged at distance is a real possibility, if during one of my lost aircraft explorations in the woods I happen to wander into somebody's illegal grow.

 

[Gunship69]

Rbernie, you are absolutely right. It's his life and he has to handle it however he sees fit. I would just like to see that in most situations, he is probably making the wrong choice. Hopefully nothing bad will ever happen to him and all of this will be moot anyhow.

 

[Gunship69]

Good luck to you Duke of Doubt. I really am just glad that you are carrying period. More Americans should be carrying, perhaps society would be more polite then.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Likewise.

Around here, most smart folks just sort of assume the next guy is armed or has quick access to a weapon. And ours is a safe, quiet State, most of the time, and very polite.

 

[Kindrox]

Now, some of you are saying I can't be 100% positive my gun is loaded!

Well, to his credit, I have only heard that assertion from DOD, so at this point it's not "some of you " it's just DOD.

He could have a grain of truth to guns that have been out of your control. My MIL unloaded a gun of mine without my knowledge, for my safety of course. I do check and when I found it, I went ballistic and it didn't happen again.

 

[TAB]

Safety is between the ears, not some feature on or not on a firearm.

I attribute the discombobulation to the dumbing down of society, perpetuated by The Great Society.

if thats the case its been happening for a very long time.


JMB didn't design the 1911 with a tumb safety or a grip safety... those were requests by the US army. JMB had a workable gun design at the time he got those requests. He litterly reworked the gun to meet the army specs.

 

[Gunship69]

Kindrox, that is horrible! I make sure all my friends and family know to NEVER alter the state of any of my guns. It's always fun to chew out the mother in law isn't it!?

 

[Kindrox]

Kindrox, that is horrible! I make sure all my friends and family know to NEVER alter the state of any of my guns. It's always fun to chew out the mother in law isn't it!?

When I met her she was anti-gun and railed against my carrying. Then my wife started carrying so now more or less she is just anti ME having a gun. I have to say that because she went and baught herself a .22.

She's anti-gun and completely bonkers in general. Generally I don't leave guns for anyone to mess with but she messed with the gun behind the counter at my wife's store. Imagine if my wife had to pull it and went "click" instead of "bang".

 

[Gunship69]

Like I said...loudest sound in a gunfight is "Click!".

 

[DHJenkins]

TBH, I didn't hear about carrying 'empty' until I got on here.

 

[astrolite]

If you are concerned with a round in the chamber, check out the HK45/HK45c. Like a 1911, it has double and single action. It has a feature (decocker) to drop the hammer without hitting the pin, so you can safely put the weapon in DA mode. The safety is located on the side too.

Pulling the hammer back with my thumb (or just leaving in DA if you need to be fast!) and turning off the safety is a lot better option, since I can do that with one hand. This leaves your other arm free.

My 2c

 

[Duke of Doubt]

astrolite: "Pulling the hammer back with my thumb (or just leaving in DA if you need to be fast!) and turning off the safety is a lot better option, since I can do that with one hand. This leaves your other arm free."

And that's what I would do, except that (1) for me, it wouldn't address my (admittedly unusual) situation of frequently loading and unloading the gun in a public place, and (2) it doesn't address the risk, admittedly small but real, of an accidental discharge when the hammer is dropped using the decocking safety. I know, it's very rare, but it happens. Both of my carry pistols have had a decocking safety (formerly, FEG PMK380; currently, Beretta 92FS), but I've used them only at the range.

 

[astrolite]

Are there actual incidents of decockers hitting the firing pin? I thought it was mechanically impossible.

EDIT: In any event, you can also thumb the hammer while decocking too, and let it down gently. Two layers of safety

 

[HammerheadSSN663]

IMO, for those folks who carry and are not total gun enthusiasts/experienced, ex LEO/military etc. etc. I think there are one of two choices if you CC:

1. no round in the chamber for SA
or
2. carry revolver fully loaded w/o hammer



I have both types and 99% of the time I carry the revolver. I do not feel safe/confident carrying my 45 SA around town.

you're mileage may vary.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You are carrying a gun, but you are only preparing for the best of situations. You should be preparing for the worst of situations. It's like flying an airplane. You hope you never have to crash land, but if you have to...you better be prepared!

Even I can't agree with the bolded part above. I think we evaluate our threat area, we listen to what others have to say, and we make our own judgment calls as to what is comfortable for us.

Here I am, in very much agreement that a gun without a round chambered, to me, isn't worth the weight on my belt to carry it around. But, at the same time, I will say in the same breath that my PT145 with 10 +1 rounds is what I feel is perfectly adequate for my protection. Others will try to convince me that I need to carry one or two spare magazines because there are incidences where 11 rounds of .45 won't be enough.

So, basically, each one of us who carries is responsible for our own self defense and, while these discussions bring up valid points about what to carry and how to carry it, the ultimate choice is up to us as to what level of preparedness we are comfortable with.

I too will applaud those who choose to carry unloaded guns. At least it is better than carrying nothing at all.

 

[Prophet]

Wow. Mebbe its just the moderator coming out in me, but this has been a truly High Road conversation/thread. Disagreements handled with maturity and logically arguments from both sides. Imagine! That's how I like to see threads turn out.

That is all I have to contribute to this thread. My conclusion is that, though in most cases I would advocate keeping one in the tube, there are some cases where carrying the weapon "empty" may be the better option. Cases that I'd not really considered before reading this thread, as a matter of fact.

 

[MisterMike]

Wow. I've only been here a few days and this is at least the third thread that addresses this issue. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that some of you have the energy to keep pounding away at this, ad nauseum.

Here's what I suggest: (1) As long as you have made the decision as to your carry condition through careful reasoning and not just because of a tired slogan, your decision is worthy of respect. (2) Whatever decision you make, the rules of firearms safety still apply. (3) After you've arrived at a decision as to your condition of carry, practice putting a self-defense action into plan in a way that doesn't endanger you or innocent people.

Now, that wasn't all that hard, was it?

 

[ironvic]

You carry the right way for you. If I stuff my P-226 in my pocket, it's fully loaded mag, nuthin' up the spout. But I practice drawing it, racking the slide as it's presented and ready to go upon fully pointing at my target.

Most of the time, though, I carry a S&W 686 Plus snubby, 7 rds chambered and ready to go.