deadin
Member
Biggest Flop??
Millions spent developing, never used....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_Atomic_Cannon
Millions spent developing, never used....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_Atomic_Cannon
What is the biggest firearm flop you have ever seen
- Thread starter horsemen61
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I haven't said either the Chiappa is bad, or the KSG. The point - which I haven't missed at all - is what guns have been flops. I define that as having been introduced to the market to sell - and which aren't. So much so they can't keep market share by sustaining appreciation for what they do.
Once past the initial group of interested buyers, guns that don't maintain continued sales and make a profit are flops. We currently see Chiappas and KSGs plentifully on the shelf. Something about a lack of sales makes that happen.
A local oriental buffet makes a lot of sweet and sour chicken every night, the octopus, not so much. Like some firearms, I have preconceived notions about octopus, I'm not grazing there. Guns can be much the same, the visual presentation and type of marketing can turn off buyers who could be fans - if they would just try it.
I was looking for a small 9mm SA pistol when I found the EAP and SIG P938. Visually, the EAP wins, hands down. Price wise, the SIG got my money. We can and do compromise somewhat to get the features we want on a firearm, but some can't and won't. Hence my discussion of the KSG and why it's not going to make it.
The Chiappa? Haven't cared. I don't shoot revolvers. That class of firearm isn't likely to ever be in my possession, they don't have the features I want. Doesn't make them bad - I just don't like the flavor. Broccoli. Chiappa now has to sustain sales to keep from being a flop. The company producing them went so far as to make fun of us "tin foil" wearers. We have a concern over the RFID chip that can ID the gun is in the immediate vicinity by a scanner - and so much for carrying it concealed at that point. If it's just you walking down a corridor, you are made. No, the chip doesn't say much of anything other than a SN for logistics purposes. But responding - at all - is the key item. A simple transponder system set up in the entrance of a lot of businesses going off every time someone passes by means you don't carry "concealed," even if it's legal. If it's a government detector, it then goes to statutes over interpretation on the issue of not disclosing who is a licensed carrier and who isn't.
Is your Chiappa going to set off an indicator every time you pass the entrance of a Big Box discount store? I don't care how good the gun is, would the average buyer want that, and the chore of removing it, which may constitute a violation of warranty with some makers in the future? These are factors which already influence the sales of the gun on the open market, and why some won't purchase them. If that resolves into pattern of sales that won't make profit - flop. All because of the chip, not the engineering. If anything, the engineering was a positive and I considered it at one time. Not now.
It's simple, we buy or don't buy based on our perception of what constitutes an attractive and reliable firearm. Some buy on brand, others discriminate because of it. Regardless, the overall impact is to continue buying them - or it's a general boycott based on some perception about the gun. Pricey, politics, or personality, the community at large won't shell out the bucks.
Take the HK P7 series - it never was really appreciated in America when produced, and the rising price of a new one cut off a lot of sales. Yet, now, it's a highly valued collector gun selling for a darn sight more than when new. So, it was nearly a flop before, but now, it's hot. Perceptions change, same with the AR - nobody much wanted one in the 70's thru early 90's, now, the guns we preferred then are off the market and long gone. The AR is the market leader and still growing. About all that saved it were government contracts - the open market considered it anathema, the poodle shooter that poops where it eats, the jammomatic that will get you killed. Not so much now. It survived the initial misinformation long enough that the real attributes are now appreciated. People found it it wasn't broccoli after all, just the same as shooters of the Chiappa appreciate it's not like a revolver dynamically.
Seen a Remington ACR at your local gun store lately? Nobody complaining about it being broccoli. But, if the current trend continues, I doubt it will survive a change of ownership if and when Remington sells. Unlike the Chiappa and KSG, the gun had an adoring fan base - who were stiff armed at the counter by the price alone. It was the opposite of broccoli, but, it's still a flop. And you can find them all over the gun auctions, there's a reason for that. It doesn't take weird engineering to make that happen. Just a Corporation.
Once past the initial group of interested buyers, guns that don't maintain continued sales and make a profit are flops. We currently see Chiappas and KSGs plentifully on the shelf. Something about a lack of sales makes that happen.
A local oriental buffet makes a lot of sweet and sour chicken every night, the octopus, not so much. Like some firearms, I have preconceived notions about octopus, I'm not grazing there. Guns can be much the same, the visual presentation and type of marketing can turn off buyers who could be fans - if they would just try it.
I was looking for a small 9mm SA pistol when I found the EAP and SIG P938. Visually, the EAP wins, hands down. Price wise, the SIG got my money. We can and do compromise somewhat to get the features we want on a firearm, but some can't and won't. Hence my discussion of the KSG and why it's not going to make it.
The Chiappa? Haven't cared. I don't shoot revolvers. That class of firearm isn't likely to ever be in my possession, they don't have the features I want. Doesn't make them bad - I just don't like the flavor. Broccoli. Chiappa now has to sustain sales to keep from being a flop. The company producing them went so far as to make fun of us "tin foil" wearers. We have a concern over the RFID chip that can ID the gun is in the immediate vicinity by a scanner - and so much for carrying it concealed at that point. If it's just you walking down a corridor, you are made. No, the chip doesn't say much of anything other than a SN for logistics purposes. But responding - at all - is the key item. A simple transponder system set up in the entrance of a lot of businesses going off every time someone passes by means you don't carry "concealed," even if it's legal. If it's a government detector, it then goes to statutes over interpretation on the issue of not disclosing who is a licensed carrier and who isn't.
Is your Chiappa going to set off an indicator every time you pass the entrance of a Big Box discount store? I don't care how good the gun is, would the average buyer want that, and the chore of removing it, which may constitute a violation of warranty with some makers in the future? These are factors which already influence the sales of the gun on the open market, and why some won't purchase them. If that resolves into pattern of sales that won't make profit - flop. All because of the chip, not the engineering. If anything, the engineering was a positive and I considered it at one time. Not now.
It's simple, we buy or don't buy based on our perception of what constitutes an attractive and reliable firearm. Some buy on brand, others discriminate because of it. Regardless, the overall impact is to continue buying them - or it's a general boycott based on some perception about the gun. Pricey, politics, or personality, the community at large won't shell out the bucks.
Take the HK P7 series - it never was really appreciated in America when produced, and the rising price of a new one cut off a lot of sales. Yet, now, it's a highly valued collector gun selling for a darn sight more than when new. So, it was nearly a flop before, but now, it's hot. Perceptions change, same with the AR - nobody much wanted one in the 70's thru early 90's, now, the guns we preferred then are off the market and long gone. The AR is the market leader and still growing. About all that saved it were government contracts - the open market considered it anathema, the poodle shooter that poops where it eats, the jammomatic that will get you killed. Not so much now. It survived the initial misinformation long enough that the real attributes are now appreciated. People found it it wasn't broccoli after all, just the same as shooters of the Chiappa appreciate it's not like a revolver dynamically.
Seen a Remington ACR at your local gun store lately? Nobody complaining about it being broccoli. But, if the current trend continues, I doubt it will survive a change of ownership if and when Remington sells. Unlike the Chiappa and KSG, the gun had an adoring fan base - who were stiff armed at the counter by the price alone. It was the opposite of broccoli, but, it's still a flop. And you can find them all over the gun auctions, there's a reason for that. It doesn't take weird engineering to make that happen. Just a Corporation.
50 Shooter
member
I think you guys need to start a Chiappa thread.. oh wait.
RustyShackelford
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Greatest "hits"....
There were a few other "one hit wonders" from the 1980s/1990s/2000s era;
Any forum members recall the Medusa DA revolver? This new design allowed the shooter to fire multiple type .357magnum/.38 caliber loads thru the same cylinder.
You could safely shoot .38spl, 9x19mm, .357magnum, .38S&W, 9mm Largo, .380acp, and a few other .38 size rounds. I think the Medusa revolver had a 8 round cylinder too but it's been several years since I saw it.
The European firearm wasn't a big hit for many reasons & only lasted about 2/3 years.
The 1980s era Calico line was a real innovation in SMGs/semi auto defense weapons. The M950 was a compact 9x19mm pistol/PDW that could spit out 50 or 100 rounds of 9mm. The magazine was a tube like feature that fit on top of the weapon. Calico produced a sporting .22LR version in a carbine & pistol format that seemed more popular.
The entire weapons platform never really got a huge following in the 1980s/early 90s, despite many + reviews in printed gun & LE articles.
In the sci-fi comedy; Spaceballs the bad guys in the funny suits carry the Calico .22LR guns.
FYI; Calico is still in business & from the website, still makes the firearms. I haven't seen any at gun shops or gun shows but they may be exported.
The Thunder 5 revolver & the GB pistol are real "throwbacks". I recall as a teen, first reading about the polymer GB 20 round 9mm in a 7-11 thinking no one would ever buy a plastic semi auto pistol.
The article had a small town SWAT cop from AL doing a T&E of the firearm.
Some models fail or never catch on for a # of reasons but a few are just flops.
Rusty
There were a few other "one hit wonders" from the 1980s/1990s/2000s era;
Any forum members recall the Medusa DA revolver? This new design allowed the shooter to fire multiple type .357magnum/.38 caliber loads thru the same cylinder.
You could safely shoot .38spl, 9x19mm, .357magnum, .38S&W, 9mm Largo, .380acp, and a few other .38 size rounds. I think the Medusa revolver had a 8 round cylinder too but it's been several years since I saw it.
The European firearm wasn't a big hit for many reasons & only lasted about 2/3 years.
The 1980s era Calico line was a real innovation in SMGs/semi auto defense weapons. The M950 was a compact 9x19mm pistol/PDW that could spit out 50 or 100 rounds of 9mm. The magazine was a tube like feature that fit on top of the weapon. Calico produced a sporting .22LR version in a carbine & pistol format that seemed more popular.
The entire weapons platform never really got a huge following in the 1980s/early 90s, despite many + reviews in printed gun & LE articles.
In the sci-fi comedy; Spaceballs the bad guys in the funny suits carry the Calico .22LR guns.
FYI; Calico is still in business & from the website, still makes the firearms. I haven't seen any at gun shops or gun shows but they may be exported.
The Thunder 5 revolver & the GB pistol are real "throwbacks". I recall as a teen, first reading about the polymer GB 20 round 9mm in a 7-11 thinking no one would ever buy a plastic semi auto pistol.
The article had a small town SWAT cop from AL doing a T&E of the firearm.
Some models fail or never catch on for a # of reasons but a few are just flops.
Rusty
Ed Ames
Member
Umm...
So the gun store I was at last night had 10+ Remington 870s, 15+ Mossberg 5xx variants, plus probably 5 each of benelli, winchester, and a few other shotguns...and one KSG with an $1100 price tag (MSRP is $990 and most guns sell below MSRP). Your argument is that because it is possible to buy one, it is a flop? Wouldn't that make the Remington 870 an even bigger flop by your reasoning?
As for the Rhino, they had two or three, all different. Following your premise that would make it less of a flop than Glock where they probably had 15 on the rack.
greyling22
Member
*caseless ammo
us military's land warrior program << probably the most expensive flop, but didn't really impact the regular shooter other than taxes
*the short mag cartriges
*the pump action rifles. (especially the thnderbolt, but even the remington guns never really caught on)
and my most regrettable flop catagory: ruger's 44mag carbines, both new and old.
hopefully: small primer 45 acp's
us military's land warrior program << probably the most expensive flop, but didn't really impact the regular shooter other than taxes
*the short mag cartriges
*the pump action rifles. (especially the thnderbolt, but even the remington guns never really caught on)
and my most regrettable flop catagory: ruger's 44mag carbines, both new and old.
hopefully: small primer 45 acp's
susquehannaslim
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Taurus PT-908,Compact,Combat Auto,JUNK !
plmitch
Member
The 10/22, only good a as a emergency canoe paddle.
Armored farmer
Member
http://http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ljutic_space_gun.jpg
Al Ljutic developed this single barrel bolt action trap gun around '79 or '80. It never went over among the trapshooting world despite the huge success and durability of other Ljutic models.
I shot one at practice during the "Grand" way back then. It was cool but the complicated action that fed from underneath was a pain.
Al Ljutic developed this single barrel bolt action trap gun around '79 or '80. It never went over among the trapshooting world despite the huge success and durability of other Ljutic models.
I shot one at practice during the "Grand" way back then. It was cool but the complicated action that fed from underneath was a pain.
carbuncle
Member
The Colt All American 2000: I remember looking at it thinking the gun was so ugly it hurt just to look at. Has to be one of, if not THE, biggest flop from a major manufacturer in the last generation.
So "virtually 100%" means better than a semi-auto instead of actually 100%. Like it or not the term does not apply to revolvers. They do fail. They are far from 100% reliable. Just like every other machine they can and do fail. Any claim to be near 100% reliable is off the mark. I never said they weren't more reliable than semi-autos so I don't know why the reliability of semi-autos has been used to justify a comment that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Elkins45
Member
I think you are applying an overly argumentative level of scrutiny. There 's no question that revolvers are mechanical devices and all mechanical devices can fail. Nobody said they don't fail, but they fail so rarely that each failure is a memorable anomaly.
We get it: some people don't like revolvers. But that doesn't mean they are "the answer to a question nobody asked", because they are a quite valid firearm type. In particular, one question they answer would be, "Hey, can somebody please give me a handgun to shoot this bear/rapist/target/deer with?"
Edit: I came back to this post to add a comment about the larger point of my original comment that started the "virtually" conversation. That point was that revolvers offer legitimate benefits to their users that pistols do not, namely the ability to fire more powerful rounds in conventional designs and the ability to retain their fired casings so you don't lose them in the weeds or to the owner of a shooting range.
Last edited:
Reloader81
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Ruger XGI. Advertised for over a year but never delivered. Finally cancelled due to unresolvable production problems. Ruger finally did manage to produce a semi-auto .308 nearly 30 years later.
Don't get me wrong, I believe Ruger makes very good products. It was such a let-down to see them throw in the towel on that one.
Don't get me wrong, I believe Ruger makes very good products. It was such a let-down to see them throw in the towel on that one.
Omaney
Member
Looks like the R51 may make this list soon.
Also it was my understanding that it was only the C model of the Caracal that was recalled. The full size weren't.
Of course, I've been wrong before.
Also it was my understanding that it was only the C model of the Caracal that was recalled. The full size weren't.
Of course, I've been wrong before.
Ed Ames
Member
You do realize that all but the worst handguns are virtually 100% reliabe, right? If a gun has one malfunction in 1000 rounds, that is virtually 100% operation. In English.
Omaney
Member
Oh and regarding the OP... I cannot name many atomic weapons that were actually used. Without getting into the whole argument of MAD, the world has squandered a lot of treasure on nukes.
No I just don't think revolvers are anywhere near 100% reliable. I've seen lots of them that didn't work. And don't put words in my mouth. I love revolvers. They are very reliable compared to semi-autos but the gap isn't what it was 50 years ago. I own a very nice revolver in fact. It's the best shooting pistol I own. And I know that it is subject to having timing issues if I was to use the heavy loads used in other .44 magnum revolvers. Those heavy loads were developed because other .44 mags could handle the extra power. Guns like Ruger and Taurus which are made from cast parts instead of machined parts like my S&W. That doesn't mean I don't count on that Smith in certain situations. When I go to my farm I have it with me pretty much constantly because the place is ate up with black bears. They bed down not more than 50 yards from the graveyard I mowed before my health went south. I definitely wanted a load that a semi-auto just can't deliver reliably. I do have shotguns and slugs for dangerous animals but I can't carry them in a holster. I don't really expect to have to shoot a bear but I intend to be prepared should the need arise.
I have NOTHING against revolvers. I like them very much actually. I just don't think they are 100% or anywhere near it. I can show you the stories I've read about 629 Smith's like the one I have. They jump time and spin backwards if you fire too many heavy rounds through them. A lot of them have done that. Again nothing made by man is 100% or even close to it.
Here's a video of one that doesn't work. I can find lots more if you like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4y-_igVqFE
Elkins45
Member
Sorry, I didn't realize I was doing that. I replied thinking you were the person who originally made the comment about "a question nobody asked", but that wasn't you.
RustyShackelford
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Buck Rodgers, Flash Gordon.....
The new compact Remington pistol looks rather "Year 2000" ish to me.
Like a old Flash Gordon or Buck Rodgers kinda weapon.
The Rhinos are not bad, IMO. I'd buy a Rhino .357magnum if I had piles of $$$ & wanted a hip, future weapon type handgun.
I think some US guns fail or "flop" due to design problems but others just have poor marketing/lack of interest.
S&W learned that hard lesson in the early/mid 1990s. When the "3rd Generation" lines became popular, Smith & Wesson wanted to be everything for everybody.
They rolled out about 25-35 different versions of their product line. There were .40s, 9x19mm, .45acp, 10mm, .356TSW pistols. You could get full size or compact. TDA(traditional double action) or DAO(double action only). S&W even produced SIG type decocker series 3rd gen models to make the FBI happy(they weren't & went back to SIG Sauer). You could get full steel or alloy frames, you could have fixed or adj type S&W sights. Blue steel or stainless.
This party train ran until the late 1990s, when the firm had big $$$ problems.
The 3rd Generation models soon scaled back then were cut entirely.
Taurus USA, www.taurususa.com did the same in some ways. They wanted to be in everyone's good graces & had a few well engineered concepts but the QC couldn't last.
The new compact Remington pistol looks rather "Year 2000" ish to me.
Like a old Flash Gordon or Buck Rodgers kinda weapon.
The Rhinos are not bad, IMO. I'd buy a Rhino .357magnum if I had piles of $$$ & wanted a hip, future weapon type handgun.
I think some US guns fail or "flop" due to design problems but others just have poor marketing/lack of interest.
S&W learned that hard lesson in the early/mid 1990s. When the "3rd Generation" lines became popular, Smith & Wesson wanted to be everything for everybody.
They rolled out about 25-35 different versions of their product line. There were .40s, 9x19mm, .45acp, 10mm, .356TSW pistols. You could get full size or compact. TDA(traditional double action) or DAO(double action only). S&W even produced SIG type decocker series 3rd gen models to make the FBI happy(they weren't & went back to SIG Sauer). You could get full steel or alloy frames, you could have fixed or adj type S&W sights. Blue steel or stainless.
This party train ran until the late 1990s, when the firm had big $$$ problems.
The 3rd Generation models soon scaled back then were cut entirely.
Taurus USA, www.taurususa.com did the same in some ways. They wanted to be in everyone's good graces & had a few well engineered concepts but the QC couldn't last.
barnbwt
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- 7,340
"Like a old Flash Gordon or Buck Rodgers kinda weapon."
Yeah, and the Rhino looks like the gun from Blade Runner, right? They both look about as similar to those things as a banana; use Google image search and see for yourself. Just because the rear of the R51 is sloped doesn't mean it has big rings around the barrel and a trumpet muzzle, and the Rhino looks in no way like a resin-covered Mannlicher-Shoenauer bolt action receiver. I hear the two statements so frequently on forums, and neither makes any sense at all (it smacks of anti's and "assault weapons" 
)
"They rolled out about 25-35 different versions of their product line."
Sounds like SIG these days. I wonder if they have to pay their distributors extra for all the real estate they must take up on shipping labels --all "qty 1"
TCB
Yeah, and the Rhino looks like the gun from Blade Runner, right?
They both look about as similar to those things as a banana; use Google image search and see for yourself. Just because the rear of the R51 is sloped doesn't mean it has big rings around the barrel and a trumpet muzzle, and the Rhino looks in no way like a resin-covered Mannlicher-Shoenauer bolt action receiver. I hear the two statements so frequently on forums, and neither makes any sense at all (it smacks of anti's and "assault weapons" )"They rolled out about 25-35 different versions of their product line."
Sounds like SIG these days
. I wonder if they have to pay their distributors extra for all the real estate they must take up on shipping labels --all "qty 1" TCB
macadore
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Anyone remember the Wilkinson Linda?
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