What is the draw to the Mosin/K98/Mauser style Milsurp Rifles?

[GD]

I collect Mosins and Mausers and like them both. The typical Finn mosin will out perform most of the Mausers I own (The Czech M98/22 being the only exception). The mauser is a very nice design and most have nice smooth actions and the mosin is pretty indestuctible. The Soviets proved the effectiveness of the rifle and their military power when they defeated Germany in WW2. I got into collecting military surplus because:
1. They can be inexpensive to own and shoot.
2. The firearms are much more tolerant of abuse than commericial firearms.
3. I enjoy the history.

I have had commericially made firearms but it seems after a few hundred rounds, I was visiting a repair shop. I sold all of them except for a couple pistols and shotguns and have never regretted going milsurp. I use my most accurate ones for hunting and have not failed to get a deer since using them. Of all my rifles, the Finnish ones are my most prized. I have about 30 Finns and none do worse than 3 MOA. I have 5 Finn M39's and all do 1.5 MOA or better. My average soviet mosin and mauser does 3-4 MOA. My Swiss K31 and my Czech M98/22's do at least 1 MOA. My best American shooter is a Model of 1917 at about 1.5 MOA and my worst is my Garand at 4 MOA. The worst milsurp I ever owned was a 1917 Sestroyesk M91 that got 18" groups at 50 yards. A lot of history but not a keeper as I won't keep a rifle unless it does 4 MOA or better.
Military surplus isn't for everyone, but it is worth looking into if you want a lot of bang (and fun) for your buck.

 

[elmerfudd]

The bolt locking up has been well-documented, as has the procedures for remedying it. Unless you've already tried the generally-suggested fixes, the problem's with you for being lazy and not the rifle for being a turd.

I can picture it right now, the Soviets are preparing for the battle of Kursk and Ivan turns to Dimitri and says, "hey, my MN's bolt is binding like a son of a bitch, would you mind passing me that electric drill and 20 gauge bore brush."

Seriously, it is and was a real problem. Yes, it can be fixed, but other rifles don't have the problem in the first place.

 

[Shrinkmd]

I can picture it right now, the Soviets are preparing for the battle of Kursk and Ivan turns to Dimitri and says, "hey, my MN's bolt is binding like a son of a bitch, would you mind passing me that electric drill and 20 gauge bore brush."

Uhh, no. That is cosmoline hardened like a rock stuck in the chamber (unless you have a burr). Thorough cleaning will relieve that problem. Lacquer coated ammo is not a problem in a clean chamber, actually even in a dirty chamber as long as the cosmo is gone

 

[Commander Guineapig]

They are cheap enough for you to go buy one and answer your own questions.

I love this answer. Gunshow here on the 10-11th!
"but dear, it's only $100!"


My apologies for lumping so many rifles into one category...I guess the correct question is "What's the draw to old MilSurp bolt-action rifles?"

GP

 

[Gord]

I can picture it right now, the Soviets are preparing for the battle of Kursk and Ivan turns to Dimitri and says, "hey, my MN's bolt is binding like a son of a bitch, would you mind passing me that electric drill and 20 gauge bore brush."

Yeah, no. As mentioned above by Shrink, bolt binding is a result of hardened cosmo in the chamber, which is remelted when you touch off a round and ends up "gluing" the casing to the chamber, essentially. I'm fairly certain that they didn't issue brand-new MNs covered in brown goop.

If five minutes with a bore brush is a deal-killer for you, then by all means avoid them, else it's such a quick and easy fix that it's really a non-issue.

I guess the correct question is "What's the draw to old MilSurp bolt-action rifles?"

Even that is a pretty broad question - as has been covered, there are distinct differences between Mosins, Mausers and SMLEs. Mosins are cheap, they work, and you'll love 'em and want to get more (I have three, and I still need to get an M38 or two and a Finn, at the very least). Mausers are a bit more refined, and also a bit more expensive, and I've not so much as handled a SMLE yet but they've got their own slavering fanbase just like the Mosin - I'm just leery of buying one as surplus ammo seems to be fairly scarce and new-production ammo, as always, is expensive.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Why I Like Milsurps.....

The Mauser is the grandaddy of modern bolt action rifles. Over the past century + since it's introduction, many "updates" have been made to the original design and not all of them for the better. For instance, if you want a Mauser style controlled feed rifle,you will either have to drop major bucks for a pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 etc.,one of the wunderkind custom rifles or a milsurp Mauser(or a commercial aftermarket type such as FN.). The extractor on the Mauser is very strong for removing stuck brass(this can break modern extractors of push feed types). The 7mm Mauser cartridge came from the 8mm Mauser. The 7mm inspired the 30.06 Springfield cartridge from which America's love affair with bolt guns sprang. So,why do I love milsurps? Without the Mauser military rifle, we would be shooting sporting rifles patterned after the Dryse Needle gun or Mosin-Nagant or (shutter) Carcano. No offense to Mosin guys but daes is uuuugly!! Mauser(large and small ring)= strength,reliability,beauty,history. Some are better than others but they are all good!

 

[Vaarok]

All of the above, plus they don't make 'em anymore and bubba's still out there with a hacksaw. They're only goin' up in value.

 

[ken B]

We need to have a 'Save the Mil-Surps from Bubba/Annoy Fudds at the Range' Week...

everyone see that Big 5 has the MN91/30 refurbs for $75 this week?

now they are probably late model refurbs like I've seen them carry before, but sometimes there's a jewel, like the hex rec'd M44 Tula I got for $69...

plus at $75 they'll still be at the worst refurb'd late WW2 rifles..still history..and good to go to the range!

I agree on the Mosins having some Negatives..but...to my pocket book they are cheaper than Mausers, Springfields and the like for some history in the gunlocker...

 

[The Deer Hunter]

They are great rifles. How inexpensive they are just the frosting on the cake, my man. Same thing with the historical significance. Just cool guns.

 

[texascarl]

One more reason to buy them...because we can. Many of these fine old guns 'migrated' here from the arsenals of totalitarian governments. Better that these weapons wind up in the hands of free citizens with expendable income than languish in a gov't warehouse...or worse, go into the smelter.

 

[Bartkowski]

I like to shoot them because they give you a nice boom and have good recoil. They are usually pretty cheap to buy and ammo isn't to expensive either. I usually don't buy a gun for where it has been or what it has done, but it is neat to think about where the gun you own may have been at some point in its life.

 

[esmith]

1. They aren't being made, so i like them over modern guns.
2. Cheap
3. You can get them for cheap and have fun refinishing them.
4. They look mean.
5. History
6. They are more guns.

 

[TCB in TN]

I learned to shoot centerfire with a 1903 so they are like a link to my youth.

I love to clean and re-finish old guns.

They quite often are much more accurate than one will would expect.

They are in-expensive, as compared to many modern guns.

They have history, and character that is lacking in newer guns.

 

[Clipper]

I personally find the M-N to be a very graceful design. Certainly (to me) the most attractive lines of any of the milsurps. And when cleaned up, shortened (91-30 w/22" barrel) and properly sporterized, makes a really handsome hunting rifle.

 

[Magnum88C]

Not trying to fanboy - I just can't see the logic in trying to compare a Mosin to a commercial rifle in terms of fit and finish. Milsurps have their drawbacks, and bein' rough around the edges is one of 'em.

Some are, some aren't. Even Mosins. I've got a pair of 1946 M44s that look better than any factoryrifle I've seen in several years. But then again, one of my best shooters is a counterbored Romanian that was dropped a heck of a lot more than one time.

Rimmed cartridges are out-dated (yeah, so the Brits used 'em too)

Well, since this was in reference to Mosins sucking, ther is NO problem with using rimmed rounds WHATSOEVER in a Mosin. They designed in the cartridge interrupter in the magazine such that you can load the rim of the top round behind the rim of the next one down and it WILL NOT lock up, because the interrupter keeps the top round sopearate from the ones below it.

Now, on the Enfield, which most (including me) consider a better battle rifle than the Mosin or the Mauser, CAN have the rims lock and jam it up good.

I can picture it right now, the Soviets are preparing for the battle of Kursk and Ivan turns to Dimitri and says, "hey, my MN's bolt is binding like a son of a bitch, would you mind passing me that electric drill and 20 gauge bore brush."

Seriously, it is and was a real problem. Yes, it can be fixed, but other rifles don't have the problem in the first place.

Sorry, didn't happen. They didn't issue rifles with chambers that had been stored for 50+ years packed in hardened cosmoline. Also the bolts, as in originally issued with the rifle were quite smooth. Every one I'd seen with no refurb markings on the bolt (nor was the bolt ground down to restamp numbers) were as smooth as any Mauser. It's during the refurb process that they simply stripped down batches of rifles and then just assembled as many working rifles from the parts as they could. This means that the original bolt was almost never kept with the original rifle. They just put in bolts, headspaced them, put the new rifle's barrel shank number on it, and packed it in cosmoline to ship to the capitalist pigs 60 years later. A lot of the "problems" people have with Mosins are due to the refurb process, not something inherent to the design.

Oh, and the Mosin action is just as strong as the Mauser's.

But really, who cares? You're not going into battle with it, and learning the little quirks of each rifle is half the fun of milsurp collecting.

To the OP's question: All of the above. You simply cannot find a better rifle for twice the money as most milsurps. You get a mini treasure hunt each time you buy one and decipher all the little proof marks and such on the rifle, You get a full furniture set (yes, I detest "sporter" stocks), a cartridge that's good for most hunting, plus that wonderful smell of cosmoline.

 

[Hoppy590]

i tip my hat to you Magnum88C well said.

 

[dstorm1911]

Tactical Ninja, uhhh everyone was comparing the Mosin to other milsurps namely the mauser and the Enfield not commercial rifles......... either of which has a much smoother bolt, better safty the sights are a tossup until ya get to the NO4 Enfields with their peep sights then its a runaway better/more accurate system, The O3A3 also falls in the same catagory its basically a Mauser with better sights an 03 Springield on the other hand I put right beside the mauser for performance......

As far as Rimmed cartridges the Enfields did just fine with em in their 10 rnd staggered mags......

Milsurps in general, History, Reliability etc.. has already been covered what has been missed is the QUALITY, you are talking about a rifle that is for the most part totally hand fitted with all machined parts (except the late war mods to the 03 Springer the A3 resulting in stamped parts) no injection molded plastic to be found, the tolerances are much tighter generally a result of the handfitting of components versus the mass produced bic lighter REMCHESTERBYS available on the commercial market if you were to buy any of the Milsurps today brand new they would cost you a couple grand due to all the machined STEEL parts, the hand fitting of those parts, even the stocks were bedded per each rifle........ much higher quality than any Walmart bargain Remchesterby could ever hope for

 

[jacobhh]

Mauser(large and small ring)= strength,reliability,beauty,history. Some are better than others but they are all good!

And don't forget the intrinsic value of that elegant engineering. To think
the US had to pay royalties to Mauser for a battle rifle design because
our grandfathers couldn't come up with a better one. Oh, the irony,
I love it.

Also, to you anti-bubbas, I just saw a '38 Mauser non-matching action,
not a rifle, just the action, go off on GB for $300 with 7 bidders & 16 bids.
'Money talks and BS walks!' to quote an old felon.

Go out and save the Mosins while others handbuild new shooters based
on those fine old Mauser actions.

 

[TimboKhan]

You know, I checked all of the above, but the most important reason I like Milsurps (a lot) is simply because they are historically cool, which is exactly what you would expect to hear out of a history major like myself.

Also, some of them are damn fine rifles. My Springfield 03-A3 is a joy to shoot, and darned accurate to boot. My Swedish Mauser is ACCURATE, and the action is just smooth as silk. My K31 is built exceedingly well, is fairly accurate, and the straight pull bolt is just fun to work. My Mosin? Well, my Mosin is fun to shoot because it's loud, accurate enough for dirty work and a big fireball shoots out the end when I pull the trigger, but of all my milsurps, I am most intrigued by that one. Such a simple design, so much history, and for me, a lot of modern possibility.

That being said, it is also just a fun subset of the overall lifestyle, because being military arms, there is a lot of variance in terms of where they were built, what parts are on them, who inspected them and so on. I am not such a fan of the minutae, but some guys are.

Also, Jeff Cooper says in Art of the Rifle that you should get a sensous feeling when holding a rifle. For me, that happens the most when I handle Springfields in particular and Milsurps in general. It's a little metaphysical, but no sporter or EBR gives me the same feeling that my 03-A3 does. It's hard to explain, but when I hold it, I know deep down that that is MY rifle. Not just a rifle, but mine. As the Riflemans Prayer says, "There are many rifles, but this one is mine".

 

[byf43]

Love the K98k!!!!!!!!


I (personally) don't give a hoot about Mosin Nagant(s).



The K98k is (IMNSHO) the most beautiful bolt rifle ever designed.


Now, when you want to add in the '03 Springfield and the M1 Garand, I believe that they are as collectable as the K98k.

 

[TimboKhan]

Now, when you want to add in the '03 Springfield and the M1 Garand, I believe that they are as collectable as the K98k

Boy, you must love the k98!

Did you happen to read David Fortiers article in Shooting Times a while back where he did a long term side-by-side comparison between the Mosin and the k98? You probably wouldn't like his conclusions, but it was pretty interesting. I have been interested in acquiring a k98 for the collection for awhile now...

 

[byf43]

Boy, you must love the k98!

Did you happen to read David Fortiers article in Shooting Times a while back where he did a long term side-by-side comparison between the Mosin and the k98? You probably wouldn't like his conclusions, but it was pretty interesting. I have been interested in acquiring a k98 for the collection for awhile now...

What an understatement!!!!!
I've posted this before, but, I gotta do it again.




No, I didn't read the article, but, I'd like to. What issue was the article in???

As for the M1 Garand, that option was not in the poll, that's why I added that comment.
I'm a BIG fan of the M1 Garand.

Personally, I have no desire for an M1 Carbine, either. None.

 

[alucard0822]

Oh the joy of milsurps, proof that America is the greatest nation on the planet. We beat many of the most powerful regimes the world has ever seen, and now we have their stuff

If I were to buy a brand new rifle, the price tag includes all of the machining, R&D (or lack thereof) marketing, and materials. The great thing about milsurps is that some other country already paid for all of that, and I get a world class weapon for cheap. As far as product testing, use in warfare cannot be beat, advertising also is second to none, "as seen on TV" gets a whole new meaning. I picked up a K-31 a couple months ago for about the same price as a mediocre 22 that is more accurate, faster, more ingenious and better made than most of the "custom" hunting rifles out there now, my $85 M44 can be fed for pennies a full-power round, my yugo m48 carries well, points quickly, is quite accurate and will flatten any 4 legged critter around here, and my NM Garand is nothing short of a 1MOA masterpeice of functinal art. There are many more I would like, but have not found yet. I am doing my part to keeps guns off of the street, and in a warm and loving home.

 

[TimboKhan]

Byf43, the article originally appeared in the August 2004 issue of Shooting Times, but it was reprinted in a specialty issue called "Best of Shooting Times" last year.

It's a pretty well written article, and if you can find it, read it. If not, here are his key conclusions:

1. The Mosin has better sights.
2. The two rifles, when reloaded at speed, are virtually identicle. (22 RPM for the MN, 21 for the K98)
3. Accuracy was better with the Mosin, although not bad for the K98.
4. Mosin has an easier action to operate
5. K98 is easier to wield, less prone to overheating, and has a signifigantly better safety.
6. Final conclusion was that Fortier would choose the MN over the k98, although the two compared pretty closely for him.

Now, the thing is, he had one k98 and one MN, and he could only compare between those two. Frankly, the k98 he has looks signifigantly more beat up than yours, and it's entirely possible that he got one great MN and one so-so k98. It was a pretty fair comparison as far as how he did it, but of course, he was writing the article with an extremely small sample group. I would point out, to soothe you, that he in no way denigrates the k98 EXCEPT in the area of sights, which he says are possibly the worst ever mounted on a battle rifle.

There is one difference that I don't get: He mentioned that he didn't like the unprotected front sights, but I notice that yours has a front sight hood. I frankly don't know that much about the k98, so whats the story there?

 

[byf43]

There is one difference that I don't get: He mentioned that he didn't like the unprotected front sights, but I notice that yours has a front sight hood. I frankly don't know that much about the k98, so whats the story there?

A majority of the RC (Russian Captured) K98k rifles that have been imported to the U.S. do NOT have the lock screws (for the trigger guard and floorplate) or the front sight hood, or the cleaning rod.

My rifle came with the lock screws, but, I found the front sight hood and the correct cleaning rod at Springfield Sporters.

Springfield Sporters had original parts when produced by the Nazis, as well as Israeli parts. I found quite a bit of 'correct' parts for my K98k rifles.

As for accuracy, a friend ordered a scope mount (Iron Elite) and it replaces the rear sight leaf, and has a cantilever to mount a 'standard' eye relief scope.
This mount is NOT permanent and is quite rugged.
My friend has taken several of his K98k rifles (he owns more than 10) to a range near his place, and using Yugo ('70s surplus) ammo, shoots 7" groups at 600 yds! (Off of sandbags.)
Not quite MOA, but close!

Granted, it's not open sights, but, the accuracy is there.