For distance shooting, let's say out to 1000 yards, would you go with a 308? something affordable to shoot. 308 is always what you seem to hear as a popular round without going too expensive for the ammo. Like the 338 lapua. Or is a 270 or some other caliber that is fast and has longer range qualitys than a 223?
What is the next step up from a 223
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courtgreene
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.243 and 7-08 are two steps between .223 and .308. I skipped those steps and love the .308 but it's not for everyone.
Well, .308 is actually in short supply right now, just like .223. But I think it is a good choice nevertheless. I would say that, because I bought a Ruger GSR on 12-30-2012, and am happy with the purchase. I have managed to acquire a modest stock of ammo since then (a couple of buys of 240 rounds, and another 260 rounds in 2 and 3 box odd lots, to add to about 440 rounds of milsurp I already had), but some of the sources I bought from have since run dry. But seeing as .308 is viewed as interchangeable with 7.62x51, and the popularity of .308/7.62x51 as a military/defense round, there will probably, over the long haul, always be greater stocks of this caliber than the other rounds you might consider. And given the law of supply and demand, the greater supply of .308/7.62x52 should make it more affordable than alternatives, especially if you shoot or buy in bulk quantities.
I'm editing this to add something here: on reflection, I might reconsider recommending .308 if you (the OP) really want something reliable "out to 1000 yards." If you really plan on doing much shooting at that distance, perhaps you should look at the various .338 rounds. I would think that at 1000 yards, you are pressing up against the limits of .308 as an effective round at that distance. At that range, and with .308, you need the right rifle and heavy loads, and you are still just about at the edge of the envelope. I'm probably going to get some push back on this, but I think we'd to know more about what you are planning to do to make a firm recommendation.
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You set on a semi-auto?
Honestly I was looking at the same thing you are, trying to find a good, available, long range shooting caliber, and getting a rifle for shots too long to hit with .223/5.56....
I ended up looking at .270 and .308, and going with .270. It has less power, but shoots flatter and is waaaaay easier to find during shortages and whatnot because there aren't people buying it up for semi-auto rifles. .308 is a great cartridge but all it takes is a handful of guys with .308 ARs in your area and that stuff dries up fast in a shortage
Honestly I was looking at the same thing you are, trying to find a good, available, long range shooting caliber, and getting a rifle for shots too long to hit with .223/5.56....
I ended up looking at .270 and .308, and going with .270. It has less power, but shoots flatter and is waaaaay easier to find during shortages and whatnot because there aren't people buying it up for semi-auto rifles. .308 is a great cartridge but all it takes is a handful of guys with .308 ARs in your area and that stuff dries up fast in a shortage
bergmen
Member.
The rifle will last decades, the ammo shortage will not. It would be best to chose a caliber and rifle that fits your needs and deal with ammo availability as a separate issue.
Having said that, .308 Winchester is a superb, very versatile choice. The component choices in .30 caliber are enormous.
Dan
Having said that, .308 Winchester is a superb, very versatile choice. The component choices in .30 caliber are enormous.
Dan
BCRider
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If you want to get serious about shooting at 800 and further then it would pay to start from the basics and evaluate your ammo choices first then pick the rifle to use it with.
First off it would be a big advantage to get into reloading as it gives you a lot more control over the bullet charactaristics and you can be as OCD over the powder charge weight as you want. Both of these things will help your final consistency. And you can't be accurate without being consistent.
Shop around and look at bullets which have good BC's (Ballistic Coefficient). Bullets with higher BC values will lose their velocity more slowly so they drop more slowly out at the far end. If you will be hunting with them you also want to look at the Sectional Density which to some extent determines the hitting power at the end of the flight. But if you're strictly looking at targets then the BC is what it's all about. With that in mind it would pay to pick a cartridge that uses a bullet size which has a lot of options. When I've looked around it seems like 7mm and .308 (.30cal) are the two which jump out with by far the most options in each makers lineup. But check for yourself if you're interested in something down more towards the .25 sort of size range.
Between the 7mm and .308 sizes the 7mm size has a lot of bullets with BC's that are a lot higher than what is generally found in .308.
Once you pick the bullet then it's time to figure out what casing to stuff them into. This is where your tolerance for recoil comes in.
For myself the limit for a longer day of shooting is 7mm-08. Even though it's only a medium sort of recoil by rifle standards I'm shooting them from a fairly light TC Encore which has a rock like recoil pad. A heavier gun or a good recoil pad would make the cartridge a treat to shoot even for 30 round days.
A handy resource for checking out some of all this is the online external ballistics calculator you can find at the Hornady website. You can play with bullet BC's and weights and launch them at some realistic speed based on reloading data and see what the drop is like at various distances.
They'll ALL drop a fair amount so don't sweat that part overly. You want to also consider the effect of wind on the bullet as well. Generally the lighter options tend to be pushed harder by crosswinds. But the heavier bullets are going to recoil harder as well. Like most things in life it's about finding a happy balance.
Once you narrow down your bullet and casing options then you can consider what rifle to use for shooting your long range ammo. And along with that comes the scope you'll be using.
First off it would be a big advantage to get into reloading as it gives you a lot more control over the bullet charactaristics and you can be as OCD over the powder charge weight as you want. Both of these things will help your final consistency. And you can't be accurate without being consistent.
Shop around and look at bullets which have good BC's (Ballistic Coefficient). Bullets with higher BC values will lose their velocity more slowly so they drop more slowly out at the far end. If you will be hunting with them you also want to look at the Sectional Density which to some extent determines the hitting power at the end of the flight. But if you're strictly looking at targets then the BC is what it's all about. With that in mind it would pay to pick a cartridge that uses a bullet size which has a lot of options. When I've looked around it seems like 7mm and .308 (.30cal) are the two which jump out with by far the most options in each makers lineup. But check for yourself if you're interested in something down more towards the .25 sort of size range.
Between the 7mm and .308 sizes the 7mm size has a lot of bullets with BC's that are a lot higher than what is generally found in .308.
Once you pick the bullet then it's time to figure out what casing to stuff them into. This is where your tolerance for recoil comes in.
For myself the limit for a longer day of shooting is 7mm-08. Even though it's only a medium sort of recoil by rifle standards I'm shooting them from a fairly light TC Encore which has a rock like recoil pad. A heavier gun or a good recoil pad would make the cartridge a treat to shoot even for 30 round days.
A handy resource for checking out some of all this is the online external ballistics calculator you can find at the Hornady website. You can play with bullet BC's and weights and launch them at some realistic speed based on reloading data and see what the drop is like at various distances.
They'll ALL drop a fair amount so don't sweat that part overly. You want to also consider the effect of wind on the bullet as well. Generally the lighter options tend to be pushed harder by crosswinds. But the heavier bullets are going to recoil harder as well. Like most things in life it's about finding a happy balance.
Once you narrow down your bullet and casing options then you can consider what rifle to use for shooting your long range ammo. And along with that comes the scope you'll be using.
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mljdeckard
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There are more considerations. Just for hunting, or just for punching paper? Bolt or semi? Are you handloading?
Why did you mention the .223? The first step up from that cartridge would be the .22-250. It's pretty close to a .223 actually but it will shoot flatter and longer than the .223. BTW both of those cartridges are used to shoot 1000 yards (yes people shoot a .223 at 1000 yards and they do it well - at least some people do). It is certainly harder to shoot those smaller rounds that far because of wind issues.
Outlaw Man
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Shooting 1000 yards basically makes the surplus/easy to find discussion moot. You need high quality (read: consistent) ammo to shoot that far, and that kind of ammo isn't exactly flooding the shelves.
That said, 308 is one of the smaller cartridges for 1000+ yard shooting, so it should be cheaper to construct (buying off the shelf or reloading) than some of these magnum cartridges.
If I were just punching paper or steel targets at a grand, I'd probably go 308. If I was trying to take down a critter at 1000 yards or more, I'd start bumping up accordingly and avoid anything smaller.
That said, 308 is one of the smaller cartridges for 1000+ yard shooting, so it should be cheaper to construct (buying off the shelf or reloading) than some of these magnum cartridges.
If I were just punching paper or steel targets at a grand, I'd probably go 308. If I was trying to take down a critter at 1000 yards or more, I'd start bumping up accordingly and avoid anything smaller.
MtnCreek
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308 would probably be natural progression. It gets tough for me past 600 to 800, depending on conditions, but there are people that do it with ease. I don’t know a lot about the cartridge, but I’m in the process of getting a 6.5 creedmoor. .260 also looks good and a lot of folks use it for a lighter recoiling long range cartridge. Looking at ballistics, they’re really close with the .260 having a slight velocity advantage. If you don’t reload, hornady makes match grade ammo for the creedmoor at a good price. Black Hills and Hornady both make good match .308 ammo. I’m sure there is some factory match .260 somewhere, but I haven’t seen any.
doc2rn
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If your gonna play at a grand the .308 is the way to go. I use the 30-06 for its utilitarian aspect, but 338 Laupa would be a good 2nd choice.
MattShlock
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.243
A joy and pleasure.
A joy and pleasure.
jakk280rem
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next step above 223 is 222 rem mag. then comes 22-250, 220 swift.
raindog
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Very true. If you're shooting at that distance, I would get into handloading.
Federal Gold Match .308 is $2/round. You can buy Sierra MatchKing HPBT 168gr bullets for $30/100 and adding primers, powder, and reuseable brass makes it more like 50 cents/round.
So looking at a few .308 loads, at 500Y the energy is below 1200 already. I wouldn't try to take down even medium game at that distance with .308, unless I was in uniform and it was of the 2-legged shooting-back variety.
BTW, OP...1000 is a really long shot
the magnums really start to dominate at that range (and before it). Go all the way - get yourself a 409 CheyTac Gym;
In reality it's whatever you want it to be. Depends on your criteria and budget. There's at least two dozen defensable choices, and maybe more. If there's a distance range in your area, start hangin' out there & make contact with the guys who think 600 yards is a chip shot. If you mind your manners & don't step in it too bad, somebody might just know of a pretty good long range gun that could be had for a reasonable price.
900F
In reality it's whatever you want it to be. Depends on your criteria and budget. There's at least two dozen defensable choices, and maybe more. If there's a distance range in your area, start hangin' out there & make contact with the guys who think 600 yards is a chip shot. If you mind your manners & don't step in it too bad, somebody might just know of a pretty good long range gun that could be had for a reasonable price.
900F
F/TR shooting competitions allow only .308 and .223 caliber rifles to participate. They do shoot 1000 yards in those competitions and sometimes people do use .223 rifles to do it.
As far as hunting goes, I don't think anyone should be hunting anything at 1000 yards unless civilization has collapsed and a whole tribe depends on you killing a wild hog in order for them to eat. In other words, there is no good reason to hunt at that distance. It's not fair to the game animals. Killing animals is one thing. Wounding them so that they suffer is another thing. 1000 yard shooting should be only about target shooting. I realize people do sometimes hunt bighorn sheep etc. at those kinds of ranges but I don't think they should. That's my opinion of course. But not many people do that kind of hunting anyway. And it takes years of practice to be able to do it successfully.
Again you can shoot 1000 yards with a .223. This stuff about a .308 being as light as you want to go for shooting that distance is just not reflected in the modern world of shooting. People shoot 6mm cartridges at that distance often. It isn't the diameter of the bullet that matters most anyway. It's the weight. More weight means the wind can move the bullet around less. But no matter what you choose to shoot at 1000 yards you'll need to learn to deal with the wind.
As far as hunting goes, I don't think anyone should be hunting anything at 1000 yards unless civilization has collapsed and a whole tribe depends on you killing a wild hog in order for them to eat. In other words, there is no good reason to hunt at that distance. It's not fair to the game animals. Killing animals is one thing. Wounding them so that they suffer is another thing. 1000 yard shooting should be only about target shooting. I realize people do sometimes hunt bighorn sheep etc. at those kinds of ranges but I don't think they should. That's my opinion of course. But not many people do that kind of hunting anyway. And it takes years of practice to be able to do it successfully.
Again you can shoot 1000 yards with a .223. This stuff about a .308 being as light as you want to go for shooting that distance is just not reflected in the modern world of shooting. People shoot 6mm cartridges at that distance often. It isn't the diameter of the bullet that matters most anyway. It's the weight. More weight means the wind can move the bullet around less. But no matter what you choose to shoot at 1000 yards you'll need to learn to deal with the wind.
sixgunner455
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.243 Winchester, .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x55 - all are used very effectively in custom rifles with handloaded match-grade ammo out to 1k.
Magnums will do it, too, but these won't beat you up while you practice figuring out how to be a shooter who can do it. I have yet to think I need to upgrade my .243. I'm actually spending a lot more time on my .22 trainer.
Magnums will do it, too, but these won't beat you up while you practice figuring out how to be a shooter who can do it. I have yet to think I need to upgrade my .243. I'm actually spending a lot more time on my .22 trainer.
Jasper1573
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While 338 is likely a better caliber for 1000 yards and beyond, for most folks, myself included, the cost of shooting it even with reloads is prohibitive, not to mention the cost of the rifle. I believe a low-priced 338 Lapua magnum in the Savage or Remington flavor will run around $2,000...a used one will be several hundred less, but much like a sports car or 4-wheel drive truck, you never know how it's been driven.
A high-end production 308 Win, on the other hand, will run you about $1200 for a good long range rifle and 50 cents per round to reload...maybe slightly less if you use once-fired Lake City brass. I would recommend pulled surplus military m118LR bullets in lieu of new matchkings, but the price of mil surp pulled bullets is now almost as much as new 175 gr matchkings.
I have engaged and hit targets out to 1100 yards with a Rem 700 5r mil spec rifle in 308 Winchester. These were not "hot" reloads, and departed the muzzle around 2620 fps, much like the $2 Federal Gold Medal Match rounds, but at one fourth the cost.
Another option is the venerable 30-06. It might be a little harder to find this caliber in a target/long range rifle, but if you look hard enough, you may be successful. It has a slight advantage in muzzle velocity over the 308 Win. Whether that advantage is worth the additional ammunition cost and recoil is a personal preference.
Other options like the 6.5mm rifles and even the 6mm/.243 will also get you out to 1000 yards, but as stated before, ammo availability is an issue unless you reload; in all of these calibers, that is true at the moment.
Whatever you choose, you should consider your primary purpose for the rifle, then purchase based on that. You can hunt with a target rifle, it just weighs a bit more and makes you tired of carrying it.
If you are serious about long range shooting, you also need to consider the price of a quality optic to go on top. For a target rifle of good/high quality, I would expect to spend a minimum of $500 on a scope. If your budget allows, more $$ will buy you clearer glass with better wind/elev adjustment repeatability.
Choose wisely.
A high-end production 308 Win, on the other hand, will run you about $1200 for a good long range rifle and 50 cents per round to reload...maybe slightly less if you use once-fired Lake City brass. I would recommend pulled surplus military m118LR bullets in lieu of new matchkings, but the price of mil surp pulled bullets is now almost as much as new 175 gr matchkings.
I have engaged and hit targets out to 1100 yards with a Rem 700 5r mil spec rifle in 308 Winchester. These were not "hot" reloads, and departed the muzzle around 2620 fps, much like the $2 Federal Gold Medal Match rounds, but at one fourth the cost.
Another option is the venerable 30-06. It might be a little harder to find this caliber in a target/long range rifle, but if you look hard enough, you may be successful. It has a slight advantage in muzzle velocity over the 308 Win. Whether that advantage is worth the additional ammunition cost and recoil is a personal preference.
Other options like the 6.5mm rifles and even the 6mm/.243 will also get you out to 1000 yards, but as stated before, ammo availability is an issue unless you reload; in all of these calibers, that is true at the moment.
Whatever you choose, you should consider your primary purpose for the rifle, then purchase based on that. You can hunt with a target rifle, it just weighs a bit more and makes you tired of carrying it.
If you are serious about long range shooting, you also need to consider the price of a quality optic to go on top. For a target rifle of good/high quality, I would expect to spend a minimum of $500 on a scope. If your budget allows, more $$ will buy you clearer glass with better wind/elev adjustment repeatability.
Choose wisely.
savanahsdad
Member
"next step up from a 223"
there are a lot , 22-250 , 223WSSM, 220 swiff , 6mmRem , 6mm BR, 243win , 243WSSM , 257 Roberts, 25WSSM the 6.5's the 7mm's (about 16 of them) , the 270's (5 of them) awhh then we get to the 308 , great round , I have one , but I have three 270win's and like others have said when things dry up the are a few boxes of 270win left out there , and when things are good it don't cost anymore the most other ammo
there are a lot , 22-250 , 223WSSM, 220 swiff , 6mmRem , 6mm BR, 243win , 243WSSM , 257 Roberts, 25WSSM the 6.5's the 7mm's (about 16 of them) , the 270's (5 of them) awhh then we get to the 308 , great round , I have one , but I have three 270win's and like others have said when things dry up the are a few boxes of 270win left out there , and when things are good it don't cost anymore the most other ammo
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