What is the value of ethics to a hunter?

[The Grand Baboon]

To clarify the original title, what is the value of ethics to a hunter concerning an animal's experience of pain?

Please don't take what I'm about to say as an attack on hunting. It is a sport that my family has have enjoyed for countless years and hopefully I'll be able to pass it on to my children someday. I'm merely trying to probe the minds of others concerning this issue.

Now, on with the discussion.

If an animal is merely a creature of instinct and it's reaction to pain is only a physiological response to avoid tissue damage that otherwise would increase its odds in the course of natural selection, then who cares what pain it goes through to end up on my dinner table? People always talk about "putting an animal through the least amount of misery" and I know for a fact that the elk I shot last December died in a matter of seconds, of which I feel quite proud, though I'm not certain why.

What I said previously may sound quite harsh, but I feel as though an animal is much like a computer. A computer receives information, processes it, and responds based upon pre-programmed information. This "pre-programming" would be analogous to an animal's "instinct." And I'm sure that if computers could squirm, cry, and moan when they get viruses, we'd feel pity for them too. Yet,in reality, the computer never really experienced pain like we do nor did it do any "thinking." I think the fatal error humanity makes when it comes to animals is that even though we respond to pain the same way, given our similar physiology, we identify with animals based upon our perception of pain, not their response to it.

What are your thoughts?

 

[evan price]

If trees could scream, would we be so unconcerned about cutting them down?


We probably would- especially if they screamed all the time, and for no reason.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm not a hunter. I've never killed or shot at an animal in my life, and don't really intend to. It's just not something I'm interested in.


But I agree with that premise. If you're not religious, ok. But I am and I do believe in souls. I believe human beings are the only life form that has a soul and that has any real value. I think animals are biological machines. An ant=a spider=a squirrel=deer=a cat=a dog=a fish, and so on. They're machines. Objects placed here to populate the planet and provide humans with scenery, food, materials, etc. The only true value an animal, any animal, has is the value it holds for mankind. You're right in they are like computers. Computer can be programmed to show any number of complex responses to input. But they are still dependent on the code their creator gave them, and there is nothing right or wrong about taking a computer apart or destroying it. Animals are machines made out of muscle and bone instead of plastic and metal. Computers were created by man to serve man. Animals were created by God to serve man.

People tend to humanize and anthropomorphize animals. We project our own feelings, emotions, morality and ethics onto them. We see our own qualities in them, not because they are there, but because it's the lens that we view the world. We are human, so we see the world through the eyes of a human. A hunter shoots a deer and feels that it is wrong for it to be in "pain". But what's really happening is that he feels it's wrong for another human to be in pain and projects that onto the animal. The deer is just a machine that has been damaged and it's CPU (brain) is going through the appropriate response sequences. It was designed to do so, and is functioning as it is supposed to. Just like a machine.

 

[caribou]

You gotta respect anything that lives outside 24/7 from birth to its lastday, with most life on this planet dying while being eaten alive.

I try my best to have a quick , clean kill, as well as avioding suffering, they go no further away as well. Sometimes its so quick, its like cheating, but the Rifle does a quick job, and up close is more certain....so the closer I can get before fireing is important to my actually placeing the bullet right where I want, and as quickly as possible have the animal die.

The animals suffering is a consitteration, but I try my best every time, and it sit well with me, especcially at dinner.

I always thank the animals anyway.

 

[Art Eatman]

I grew up around farming and ranching. From around age six or so, I've known that in order that we eat, something is going to die. Since it's a fact of life, I don't even consider the issue of killing. The choice is to do it yourself (venison) or to hire somebody to do it for you (beef, pork, chicken).

But I do subscribe to the idea that any killing should be done as quickly as possible to avoid causing needless pain. Animals can suffer, so why add to the misery?

 

[jmorris]

I feel as though an animal is much like a computer.




What are your thoughts?

I think you never had a good dog. Or a fundamental misunderstanding of either the animal kingdom or computer science. My computer doesn't seem to have any clue or signs of guilt when it does something wrong. It also doesn't seem to be able to sense when I am upset.

I'm not suggesting they are our equal but they have thought not simply binary 1 and 0 response.

 

[Loosedhorse]

what is the value of ethics to a hunter concerning an animal's experience of pain?

How can we know? Ethics is not about how animals feel about their deaths: it is about how we as hunters feel about ourselves and our fellow hunters, and about how non-hunters can reasonably view us, based on our actions.

who cares what pain it goes through to end up on my dinner table?

I do.

I feel as though an animal is much like a computer.

It is no more a computer than you are.

I'm sure that if computers could squirm, cry, and moan when they get viruses, we'd feel pity for them too.

You seem to be implying that as animals are only "computers," and we'd be silly to pity a computer that squirmed, cried, and moaned, then we are silly to be concerned if an animal does the same.

I don't believe that for a moment. Animals can feel pain, animals can suffer, animals can feel fear. To the extent that we can take reasonable measures as hunters to prevent that (including honing our skills, and staying within our skills by not taking shots that we aren't confident we can make), we SHOULD do that.

The deer is just a machine that has been damaged and it's CPU (brain) is going through the appropriate response sequences.

I beg pardon, but this is a delusion. I can build a machine; I cannot build a deer.

A deer is not a machine any more than a human being is a machine.

 

[mcdonl]

A deer is not a machine any more than a human being is a machine.

You have not seen my wife shop.

I prefer an animal die quickly because of my own feelings, not the animals. When I hunt for food, I prefer the animal die quickly because I do not want the meet to get the damage of the bodys chemical reaction to trauma.

When I trap I prefer to do a quick dispatch with my .22 then other traditional methods because of my own sensibilities.

None of them are related to how the animal "feels". I would not hunt or trap if I cared about such things.

But if I did not have the internal desire to not see something suffer I would not feel good about myself.

 

[Loosedhorse]

You have not seen my wife shop.

Correction accepted.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I'll not even get into horse, dogs and cats, opposed to less intelligent animals.

Alligators have a brain smaller than their eyeball, pure reaction no affection; even so if I had to put down an alligator I would still consider it a matter of ethics (and personal safety) to put it down as quickly and painlessly as possible.

 

[fallout mike]

I've never taken a shot that I didn't think was a kill shot. Therefore, all my shots taken have resulted in one shot kills. But I do this for myself. To me hunting is a sport but I do eat what I kill. I would get nothing out of shooting numerous shots to take a deer. I am strictly talking about deer hunting.

 

[Sky]

People tend to humanize and anthropomorphize animals. We project our own feelings, emotions, morality and ethics onto them

Anyone who has owned a good dog or Parrot will tell you they have feelings and know happiness and even shame. The problem with what some consider "the lower life forms" is they live in the "NOW" for the most part.

Without writing a long dissertation with generalizations and linking study after study on animal intelligence let me just say; many animals are capable of some of the same feelings you and I are. Fear, shock, and pain being right up there.

Everything dies and someday when it is my time hopefully it will be a clean kill or death.

In the mean time I will live and let live based on my own personal belief system and not violate the laws of said belief system.

I beg pardon, but this is a delusion. I can build a machine; I cannot build a deer.

Well said Loosedhorse^ I always think of some of the "God Kings" that thought they were Divine. Yes they had the power to put someone to death but none of the Emperors of old that I am aware of could put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

There are things that need to be killed 'for what ever reason' and in my world I try to eliminate prolonged suffering and pain.

 

[Skyshot]

All animals feel pain, how they deal with it is a big mystery in my mind. A snake I'm sure feels pain but people don't think a thing about hacking its head off and then those same people can't stand the thoughts of killing a fur bearing four legged creature with brown eyes. Mother nature is far more cruel to any animal than the arrow or bullet. I think it's all in how we feel towards taking that animals life. I know for myself it's a progression in age. In my older years, I know that when carrying capacities get filled, then animals will die a cruel death and that hunting is a nobel a cause to help prevent this from happening. But also as I have aged, I don't need the thrill of the kill like I once did when I was younger. I still get the rush, but I can also pass if I want. I guess I'm kinda like and old house cat. The first thing they do when you let them out is start hunting, but they don't need to, it's just in the blood of all predators. I may decide I've had enough one day and quit because I no longer get the "rush". That rush is much easier to control now that I'm older. I just can't figure out if I'm getting more learned on the art of the kill or I'm getting more sensitive towards death. Maybe both.

 

[eldon519]

If an animal is merely a creature of instinct and it's reaction to pain is only a physiological response to avoid tissue damage that otherwise would increase its odds in the course of natural selection, then who cares what pain it goes through to end up on my dinner table? People always talk about "putting an animal through the least amount of misery" and I know for a fact that the elk I shot last December died in a matter of seconds, of which I feel quite proud, though I'm not certain why

I think your argument is logical based on your premise, but I think your premise and your view of animals as computers is completely incorrect. It is easier to point to some species that you don't regard as having living value like an insect because it is so far removed from our behavior and experience, but it is harder to go down a spectrum of animal intelligence and emotional experience and point to the cutoff of where an animal is some automaton and where it is a living creature. Would you describe a dolphin, dog, whale, elephant, chimpanzee or gorilla as a computer? All of these animals mentioned are social animals with their own form of a "family", displayed nurturing characteristics, intelligence that would overlap the lowest of the human spectrum (mentally handicapped for instance), and several of these species have even been taught to create art (no Picassos in the bunch, but it certainly rivals what comes out of some pre-schools). Some of these animals have saved people in the wild or even in domestic situations (dogs for example). What is next on the spectrum? Cats, birds (what about a talking parrot vs a bluejay), horses, cattle, pigs, etc? Finally who are we to decide based on merit? If you are religious it is an easy enough answer as you may feel appointed by God to rule the earth, but if you are not, why play one-man judge and jury of the animal world? I'm not pretending to have answers, and I don't look down on anyone for hunting or living an omnivorous lifestyle (I do too). Just presenting some questions and things to think about. I do think it is pretty amazing that creatures like toothed whales (orcas, sperm, etc) and humans generally live in mutual wonder of one another and for the most part don't kill or harm one another in the wild (at least since humans mostly quit whaling). They could so easily have us for lunch, but there are not too many top predators I would be as comfortable to be alongside of in the wild.

I'd also put forth that compared to humans, most animals as a species seem to value their lives as much or more than we do. They will fight and push until they can go no further. Some species such as fish will literally fight for their life until they die on their own. Besides insects sacrificing for a hive, you don't see too many suicides in the animal world (lemmings don't really jump off cliffs on their own).

I'd also point out what is the value of ethics in the human world? Frequently you can get ahead by being unethical if you are able to conceal your actions. Often it is also easier to be unethical such as cases of dereliction of duty. Do you just do it so other people won't find out, thus bringing negative consequences your way?

Just wanna wrap up by saying I am not trying to present judgements here but rather ask questions that get one thinking. I think your question and topic are very philosophical, and to me that is best answered by giving open thought and consideration of one's own. Usually the answer to value judgement questions has to be come from you and your values.

 

[RhinoDefense]

I want to kill the animal quickly because I've got a lot of work to do after it is dead. Gut, skin, butcher, package the meat, package the remains, put up the fur, etc and I've got other things in life that I need to attend to as well. Killing an animal for food is not an emotional experience. I have to eat, something has to die, what's to think about?

I shoot until the animal stops moving. I don't wait for it to bleed out. On medium and big game, I aim for the heart/lungs, and make the hit. Then I walk up to it. If it's dead, I get to work. If not, I'll shoot it in the head until it's dead. Then get to work. I just want it dead so I can move onto the next step. Small game like rabbits, squirrel, etc it's a headshot that seals the deal or a good set of pellets from a shotgun.

I've never had a problem killing an animal and never thought about their supposed feelings when doing so. Never cared about their pain. Not my concern, that's their problem.

 

[browningguy]

but I feel as though an animal is much like a computer.

That is about the craziest thing I have ever heard. Animals feel pain, it's really that simple. You don't need to go into religion or anything else to understand that animals have intellect and they feel. And by the way I don't know of any religion that says animals don't have intellect or feel pain.

Yes, we use them as beasts of burden, and we eat them. But those really have nothing to do with having intellect or feeling pain. I hunt, but I feel really bad if I don't make a clean shot that puts an animal down quickly.

 

[SimplyChad]

You need a dog. Dogs seem to have more compassion then alot of people Ive seen in this world. They understand right and wrong and I actually believe they dream. Show me a computer that dreams. That looks for companionship from others. Have you just watched nature act?

 

[RevGeo]

'Animals were created by God to serve man'.

I will never, as long as I live, wrap my mind around that one. As far as I'm concerned man is an animal. We have little concern it seems, in the real world, for the suffering inflicted on our fellow man by our actions. Same with the other animals.
Every living thing must die. Death by traumatic injury results in physical pain, 99.9% of the time. A quick kill by gunshot is pretty 'humane' considering some of the alternatives.
Most of us who eat meat delegate the killing of the animals to others who get paid to do it. If we don't have to witness it we don't even consider it. Out of sight, out of mind.
Like many here I grew up in an area and era where and when people often slaughtered their own animals for meat - both domestic and wild. I've never known anyone in their right mind who truly enjoyed killing anything. It is a necessary step in reducing the live creature to protein.
Ethics-wise, if you can't do it yourself, don't. Delegate your killing to someone else. Or don't eat meat. What else is there to do?

 

[95XL883]

It has been a long time since I hunted. I'm wanting to hunt again.

I'm floored by the question. The object of the hunt is to harvest the animal for food or eliminate a nuisance. Whether it is a physiological response somehow different that what humans feel or exactly the same as humans feel it entirely irrelevant. (No offense meant.) I'll do my best to kill it quickly. To me, pain is pain and I see no point in not doing the task as efficiently as possible.

 

[The Grand Baboon]

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses.

To begin, it seems that I was remiss in explaining why I ask this question.

I was present when my first dog was put down about two weeks ago. To be brief, it was hard.

At this point I'm trying to understand how I can so calmly put a bullet through an elk and yet at the same time weep over the loss of a family pet. Were the elk and the old Schnauzer much different? Of course I wasn't directly the one who "killed" my dog, but I was there. How can I have no guilt over the many non-game animals that I've killed? Unlike the elk, none of the ground squirrels I've killed have I used for anything other than target practice and, possibly, food for other critters.

I know my analogy of a computer breaks down very quickly and, to be quite honest, there should have been a prompt "but..." after "like a computer." Yet, it served it's purpose, in my mind, of getting the discussion started in trying point out the vast difference between "us" and "them."

As an aside, I now have an eight month old Chocolate/Yellow lab mix. He didn't seem to mind the loss of the Schnauzer as much as the rest of the family did.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I was present when my first dog was put down about two weeks ago.

I am sorry for your loss.

At this point I'm trying to understand how I can so calmly put a bullet through an elk and yet at the same time weep over the loss of a family pet.

Emotions do not have to be logical. We can love our pets; and respect our prey. There is no contradiction in my mind.

 

[RhinoDefense]

They understand right and wrong

Sorry, animals do not have morals, thus cannot differentiate between moral right and moral wrong. Their low intelligence does not allow for morals. Morals are a human trait, not an animal trait.

 

[X-Rap]

I've put down my own dogs and I believe they have some sort of understanding of it. Perhaps many animals do have greater feelings than we understand or it may just be the close relationship we have with dogs. I can't really say the same for cats so maybe it is just a dog thing.
Stock animals never raise the same emotions as dogs either so I would put deer, elk and the like in the stock animal category. Rodents are in another as well, some we put to food while others are pests to be exterminated, I never felt anything over rodents be they hamsters rabbits or wild pests. I typically will release a unusually large fish when I catch one but they and reptiles gather no emotion when i kill them either.
Back to dogs, feral dogs and wild canines don't do a thing for me and I have taken my share of them.

 

[BBQLS1]

I've heard/read on the discussion that animals don't have feelings and whatnot. I don't really think that is correct. I realize that their brains may not have the capacity to feel in the ways that humans do, but I do think they have some feelings that we don't understand.... heck we don't necessarily understand our brains or our feelings (at least there are still more unanswered questions than answered). If you think about it, our brains are like computers too.... chemically controlled and way more complicated than what we make though. I don't think a person truly understands what any other person is thinking, how can we know what animals really think? I know my pets sure seem to display affection.

I guess my point is: We don't really understand what animals really experience.

That being said: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I was going to be eaten, I'd prefer as little pain as possible.... even if I fight back!

 

[95XL883]

Sorry for your loss. While a pet is an animal, there is an attachment/a shared life between the pet and its owner and its owner's friends and family. That attachment doesn't exist between game and people. Still whether it is a pet or wild animal putting it down quickly is just the thing to do. I think I understand how you feel about having your pet put down. To me, putting down a pet is something to be considered when the animal can't be made comfortable when in its end stage. It's a hard decision.