What is your preferred method and die to improve concentricity

[Varminterror]

My mandrels are nitride coated and I don't lube.

Good point here indicating a need for clarification in my post:

I lube my necks for 2 reasons, one more important than the other. First, I am protecting the TiN coating on my mandrels, but also lubing necks for consistent bullet seating pressure (and in theory, release). Neck lubing is a highly debated topic, with a specific nuance of the influence of brass cleaning method - dry tumbling tends to leave sufficient carbon and media residue in the neck to act as lube, whereas wet tumbling or ultrasonic cleaning cleans the brass too well and doesn’t leave any residual to act as lube.

 

[BJung]

And, what about spring back? Do you run your mandrel 1x or 2x-3x?

 

[Otto]

Can't you use a FL Die and adjust it down enough to force the shoulder back. But then, it resizes the neck. And, I am guessing it will resize the whole case, No ( I hope )?

That's why you should use a Body die instead. It resizes the case and bumps the shoulder but it doesn't resize the neck.
I like to use the collet die first, followed by a Redding body die.
I'm not a huge fan of Lee products but I like their collet dies and case lube.

 

[JFrank]

And, what about spring back? Do you run your mandrel 1x or 2x-3x?

I am hard pressed to find any spring back in neck OD after sizing.

 

[Varminterror]

And, what about spring back? Do you run your mandrel 1x or 2x-3x?

Typically only 1x, but it depends how work hardened the necks might be. For example, when I’m annealing, little to no appreciable springback. On a batch of Hornady brass I took 6 firings before annealing, the first mandrel pass didn’t open the neck as much as the second.

But… in the scheme of things, work hardened brass isn’t holding the same as annealed/soft brass, so the neck tension target has to move with the hardness, and bushings and mandrels move with it. I’ve generally found it easier to change BUSHINGS than mandrels to hit my desired neck tension, so I usually leave my mandrels alone.

 

[BJung]

Typically only 1x, but it depends how work hardened the necks might be. For example, when I’m annealing, little to no appreciable springback. On a batch of Hornady brass I took 6 firings before annealing, the first mandrel pass didn’t open the neck as much as the second.

But… in the scheme of things, work hardened brass isn’t holding the same as annealed/soft brass, so the neck tension target has to move with the hardness, and bushings and mandrels move with it. I’ve generally found it easier to change BUSHINGS than mandrels to hit my desired neck tension, so I usually leave my mandrels alone.

Too bad Lee doesn't make a Collet Neck Sizing die with mandrels that can be screwed in and replaced with a hex key.

 

[AJC1]

Too bad Lee doesn't make a Collet Neck Sizing die with mandrels that can be screwed in and replaced with a hex key.

They do make different mandrels for their dies.

 

[Varminterror]

Too bad Lee doesn't make a Collet Neck Sizing die with mandrels that can be screwed in and replaced with a hex key.

Wouldn’t change my day. I don’t drink at the LCD fount.

 

[JFrank]

I can do exactly the same thing with a mandrel.
As I stated I believe they are equal procedures, with equal results.

Fair enough..

 

[JFrank]

Do you prefer the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die, Bushing Die, or Neck sizing die to assemble rounds with the least runout and best concentricity? I once owned a Lee Collet Neck Sizing die and the needle on my Sinclair gauge barely moved when testing for concentricity off the bullet ogive (I hope that's said correctly). But, I later tired resizing my case neck and then expanding it to .001" less than my bullet diameter with an RCBS expander and measuring the assembled round, the runout was worse. I used Imperial Die Wax too btw.

Here’s my question, when you installed the mandrel into the die body did you tighten down the cap or does the mandrel rattle slightly ?

 

[Theinkman]

Can't you use a FL Die and adjust it down enough to force the shoulder back. But then, it resizes the neck. And, I am guessing it will resize the whole case, No ( I hope )?

No you cannot resize just the shoulder using a full-length sizing die. I don't understand why some people believe it can. The die is designed to size the entire case; neck, shoulder, body.

 

[Walkalong]

My method is to check each step after any components used, replace anything that induces runnout.

For my Dasher I use a Wilson threaded bushing style FL sizer, a nitrided expander (21st Century in this caliber), a Wilson micrometer hand seater and arbor press. Works very well. Other methods and dies can work just fine.

 

[BJung]

Here’s my question, when you installed the mandrel into the die body did you tighten down the cap or does the mandrel rattle slightly ?

I don't remember but I think not.

 

[JFrank]

I don't remember but I think not.

Test it both ways, FL dies with bushings we like to back off a wee bit to allow just a light rattle and the theory is to ‘self center’ might be a reasonable description.

 

[BJung]

Test it both ways, FL dies with bushings we like to back off a wee bit to allow just a light rattle and the theory is to ‘self center’ might be a reasonable description.

For FL sizing, I once learned on this webcast that you want to size the case enough so the assembled cartridge will cause just enough friction on the bott, when you close it. Isn't that true? Better yet, a custom FL die matching your chamber is better. Yes or No?

 

[JFrank]

For FL sizing, I once learned on this webcast that you want to size the case enough so the assembled cartridge will cause just enough friction on the bott, when you close it. Isn't that true? Better yet, a custom FL die matching your chamber is better. Yes or No?

Well hold on a moment to allow me to clarify my previous post with regard to consentricity, as I was referring to the neck bushing
inserted inside the FL die, by not tightening the cap completely we let the brass neck self center/self align hopefully improving run out.
Your question on fl sizing and die adjust is separate issue but to give my thoughts as best I can- no you really don’t want extra friction beyond the pressure from the extractor, that pressure you are feeling may indicate your case is fully fire formed and ready measure as a close representation of your chamber. ( that’s a good thing)
As for dies it really doesn’t matter who’s name is on the box, matching the chamber is always better for brass life and imo performance.
Jim

 

[lightman]

I have loaded some awful straight ammo on my Rcokchucker and conventional FL dies by being slow, careful and deliberate. Something around .001 not always or every time.

When I started shooting 600 and 1000 yard benchrest I used Wilson dies and an arbor press. Most runout was .001 and less. I turned the case necks and the rifle had a tight neck chamber. I ran .0015 neck wall clearance.

 

[jmorris]

I lube my necks for 2 reasons, one more important than the other.

I lube mine for 2 also. The first because it reduces effort the second is because you don’t yank the neck out of round pulling the expander out.

Something I learned with a way to measure run out, on an empty case, before and after sizing.

 

[emb]

I primarily hunt and participate in 3 gun. So, I don't really need to pay attention to it, but I do anyway with my hunting rounds. My redding competition and Hornady and RCBS Match dies load fairly straight. But I have a lot of different types of dies. As a matter of habit, I seat the bullet in approximately quarter turns. That usually results in ammo with little (less) runout. Plus, I don't think I can shoot the difference. I just want the result to be me rather than the ammo. So, I build it the best I can. That's what got me into reloading in the first place-crappy or inconsistent factory ammo.

 

[Firetip]

I use Redding dry neck powder and a Sinclair mandrel die and mandrel. I straiten cases with Forster co-ax press combined with Lee dies.

Then a Forster case trimmer set up to turn the necks if needed and i finish up with 000 steel wool. To check neck wall thickness uniformity I use a Sinclair neck wall thickness gauge with .0001 accuracy. Now Im ready to resize the case and I can full length resize with a standard Lee die or use a standard Lee resizing die that is opened up to better fit the chamber.

If I just want to resize the neck I can use either a lee collet or Forster neck die then final size with a sinclair mandrel die to set the neck tension. I shoot for .001 to .0015 minus the bullet before springback.

The final neck size with a bullet loaded is set to best fit the chamber for both accuracy and proper case expansion and bullet release. The Forster neck die can also bump the shoulder back. The lee full length dies also bump the shoulder back and all the die lock rings are set using an RCBS case gauge micrometer. I make go, no go gauges out of once fired wcc military brass and use Forster lock rings on the Lee dies.

The full length Lee dies are modified so the neck expander dosen't set the final case neck diameter to prevent streching the case on the upstroke. The Lee expander mandrels are sanded down using a drill and sand paper. The the cases are trimmed, chamfered and deburred.

I just bought a Forster bullet seating die with a micrometer top to set various bullet seating depths after owning lee dies for 8 years. I generally load to the max magazine length and call it good.

I have one Lee 223 die that straitens cases so crazy accurate that it is kept under lock and key. The idea is to get the barrel axis to run through the center of the bullet tip and through the center of the primer and to get this the case is properly sized to fit the chamber.

 

[Slamfire]

I found I have to control the amount of lube on the case neck or run out varied considerably, And I have no idea why.

One real issue is, is your chamber concentric? Is the bolt face perpendicular to the chamber? If the cases come out of the chamber and the case head is cocked, you can't fix that in a sizing die.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

A honed die is cheaper and removes your primary concern. Now I would purposely buy a die with .003 neck tension so I could adjust it the way I want. Now the fear of over working brass can't really be pushed by the same group contending annealing every cycle is nessary.

You expect consistency of opinion?
To quote Puck, via Shakespeare, “Oh! what fools these mortals be!”

 

[AJC1]

You expect consistency of opinion?
To quote Puck, via Shakespeare, “Oh! what fools these mortals be!”

The only thing expect is civil discourse. I desire different ideas to be presented so that any involved can test to find what works best for them. Proof of concept is accomplished by many who advocate for their position. If a person can find a workable solution with my advice/path I'm extatic.

 

[Walkalong]

If it works it works, if it doesn't it doesn't, change anything that doesn't, until it does.