Carter
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I was having a friendly argument with a coworker about 9mm vs everything and was asked why no agencies carry it once I made my argument. Was wondering if you guys could help me out on what LE agencies carry 9mm. Thanks.
What LE agencies carry 9mm?
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Quiet
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The current tread is showing a resurgence of 9x19mm sidearms due to the cost & availability of ammo.
As of 2010...
2 of the 49 state law enforcement agencies still use 9x19mm sidearms.
HI does not have a state law enforcement agency, but the largest LE agency in HI issues 9x19mm sidearms.
Washington DC Police Department has the 9x19mm Glock 17 as their standard issue sidearm.
As of 2010...
2 of the 49 state law enforcement agencies still use 9x19mm sidearms.
HI does not have a state law enforcement agency, but the largest LE agency in HI issues 9x19mm sidearms.
Washington DC Police Department has the 9x19mm Glock 17 as their standard issue sidearm.
SC Shooter
Member
http://forums.officer.com/t172076/
This link provides some of the information you are looking for. You might also mention to your friend that the US Military and many other countires use the NATO standard which is the 9mm Parabellum. ayny Eastern European countries' police and military use 9 X 18 MM (Makarov)
This link provides some of the information you are looking for. You might also mention to your friend that the US Military and many other countires use the NATO standard which is the 9mm Parabellum. ayny Eastern European countries' police and military use 9 X 18 MM (Makarov)
breakingcontact
Member
The smart ones.
How very highroad of you.
As said above, there is actually a resurgence of 9mm and I have seen some departments go to 9mm from 40S&W. I've also seen several go to .45acp from .40.
.40s&w came in and stole all the thunder from 9mm and .45acp in the 90s. I wonder just to what degree the .40 cal is losing ground to those rounds now. would be interesting to see.
MedWheeler
Member
... and improvements in the ammo itself.
The Unified Police of Salt Lake City, a composite agency created when the city and county merged, permits its officers to carry the 9mm, the .40S&W, or the .45ACP (the agency issues the S&W M&P, with exemplars in each.)
The most-often-selected caliber is the 9mm. Faith in the round is improving, and performance by the officers with it appears to be high.
Inebriated
Member
There's nothing particularly low road about that statement. 9mm is cheaper to train with, easiest on guns, tends to be easier to control for most folks, it offers good proven performance, adequate barrier performance, and obviously capacity. .45 and .40 are fine cartridges, but from a purely departmental standpoint, 9mm does seem to be the smartest (or at least most efficient) choice.
There is nothing low road about the arguments supporting the 9mm. I interpreted the comment to be low road only in that the underlying message is that if the smart choice is 9mm, then other cartridges (by process of elimination) are stupid choices. Without getting into a cartridge war, there are advantages and disadvantages to each and every round, and whatever they pick is a product of a series of priorities and compromises.
I don't think there is one universal "right answer."
I happen to believe very strongly in the efficacy of the 9mm based on the research I have done, but that doesn't mean that someone who has different sets of needs/priorities can't pick a different round.
I owned an M&P9 for years that served double duty as a carry gun and nightstand gun. I trusted my family's safety with that gun and with the 9mm. Now, I recently got a 1911 in .45acp that is filling that same role. I don't see anything wrong with either round, or with a .40 if a department prefers that.
My local department, by the way, carries Glocks in .40S&W. The neighboring large city issues the M&P45 to its cops. Neither choice is right or wrong.
SilentScream
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Last I saw both LAPD and Los Angeles county sheriffs issue 9x19mm sidearms. LASD issues the Beretta 92 not sure if LAPD still issues the 92 as well.
Ranger Roberts
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My dept switched from 9mm (Glock 17) to .40 cal (Glock 22). I didn't really ask why (I'm not one of the decision makers) but our chief is really good with our budget, so I assumed it was somehow financially beneficial for us.
There's a few departments that do, I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Texas DPS (state troopers) is apparently switching from .357SIG to 9mm (M&P).
Which is actually kinda surprising to me, of all places I'd expect Texas to be the last one to switch from something like .357SIG to 9mm.
I think the general impression some people get is that 99% of cops carry .40S&W and the 1% that don't are carrying .45 or .357SIG, but that's just not the truth.
Which is actually kinda surprising to me, of all places I'd expect Texas to be the last one to switch from something like .357SIG to 9mm.
I think the general impression some people get is that 99% of cops carry .40S&W and the 1% that don't are carrying .45 or .357SIG, but that's just not the truth.
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Portland Police use the Glock 17 as the standard sidearm. MCSO uses the Glock 22 or 23 for duty. Clackamas County lets their officers choose...some carry 1911s, some the Glock 19, etc. etc... That's just my area...can't speak for Washington State or the rest of Oregon...
Esoxchaser
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Texas just announced they were going back to 9mm.
http://thefacts.com/ap_news/texas/article_6d02bd2e-7999-5c82-89c8-d94be38cad50.html?mode=jqm
http://thefacts.com/ap_news/texas/article_6d02bd2e-7999-5c82-89c8-d94be38cad50.html?mode=jqm
There isn't any reason to continue with a 357 Sig when the best 9mm loads overlap in performance with 357 Sig loads. No point in shorting yourself a few rounds.
When the 40 1st came out USA law enforcement was right at the beginnings of transitioning from 357 revolvers to semi's. Some had already made the change to 9mm, but most cops at the time didn't trust 9mm and still carried revolvers.
The 40 was perceived as an acceptable alternative. It matters little that even 20 years ago the best loads in all of them, (9mm, 40, 45, and 357 ) were a virtual tie. The cops on the street trusted the 357, 40 and 45, not the 9mm. You don't ask people to put their lives on the line with equipment they have no faith in. This is why the 40 became so prevalent in LE circles. Cops trusted it to work.
Our local PD's switched from S&W 66's in 1994. The city PD chose S&W 5906's in 9mm. The county G22's in 40. In the last 20 years there have been roughly 1 LE involved shooting every other year in each dept. That is about 20 shootings and roughly half with 9mm, half with 40. The results have been exactly the same each time. 2 quick shots and 1 dead bad guy.
Over the last 20 years there have been enough studies and documentation to pretty well prove to any doubters that there is virtually no difference. We are seeing a trend toward 9mm, but the 40 is still overwhelmingly preferred in LE. And probably will be for a while.
When the 40 1st came out USA law enforcement was right at the beginnings of transitioning from 357 revolvers to semi's. Some had already made the change to 9mm, but most cops at the time didn't trust 9mm and still carried revolvers.
The 40 was perceived as an acceptable alternative. It matters little that even 20 years ago the best loads in all of them, (9mm, 40, 45, and 357 ) were a virtual tie. The cops on the street trusted the 357, 40 and 45, not the 9mm. You don't ask people to put their lives on the line with equipment they have no faith in. This is why the 40 became so prevalent in LE circles. Cops trusted it to work.
Our local PD's switched from S&W 66's in 1994. The city PD chose S&W 5906's in 9mm. The county G22's in 40. In the last 20 years there have been roughly 1 LE involved shooting every other year in each dept. That is about 20 shootings and roughly half with 9mm, half with 40. The results have been exactly the same each time. 2 quick shots and 1 dead bad guy.
Over the last 20 years there have been enough studies and documentation to pretty well prove to any doubters that there is virtually no difference. We are seeing a trend toward 9mm, but the 40 is still overwhelmingly preferred in LE. And probably will be for a while.
BSA1
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In my immediate area the carry guns and calibers used by the small surrounding departments are copied directly from the big city (pop. 500,000+) department uses. Many of the small department Chiefs come from the big city P.D. and since they are not "gun guys" they copy what big P.D. carries.
Last I knew it is the Glock 40 although I have heard rumors about them going back to the 9 for all of the above mentioned reasons. If that happens then the smaller surrounding agencies will also make the change.
Last I knew it is the Glock 40 although I have heard rumors about them going back to the 9 for all of the above mentioned reasons. If that happens then the smaller surrounding agencies will also make the change.
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jimbo555
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I'm one of the doubters sticking with 45acp. It still has an edge in my mind.
Quiet
Member
SilentScream said:
In 2004, the LAPD adopted the .40S&W Glock 22 as it's new standard issue sidearm. It replaced the 9x19mm Beretta Model 92FS.
In 2011, the LAPD adopted the 9x19mm Glock 17 as it's new standard issue sidearm. It replaced the .40S&W Glock 22.
In 2013, the LASD adopted the 9x19mm S&W M&P-9 as it's new standard issue sidearm. It replaced the 9x19mm Beretta Model 92FS.
I was on a committee to study going to semi autos from revolvers back in the early 80s. We tested multiple firearms in 9mm, 40 and 45 acp (no 357 sig back then) using multiple officers, both experience and inexperienced with firearms. We tested both female and male officers and included the best and worse shooters on the department.
Out finding is that all officers shot the semi autos better on qualification scores than the .357 mags revolvers we were currently using once they were oriented to the semi autos. Caliber of the semi auto didn't matter.
We found that the highest scores were with 9mm, with the .40 slightly behind. Both 9 and .40 scores were significantly higher than with .45 acp.
We found that the difference between the 9 and 40 wasn't as great as between the 40 and 45 and that we could narrow the gap between the 9 and 40 with additional training.
We ultimately went with a .40 (Glock 22) and I still believe it to be the best service pistol and caliber combination (and I was and am a big, big fan and promoter, user of the the .45 acp).
I do believe the 40 is a better service cartridge than either the 9mm or .45 acp but if I still ran a department and money was a big issue I wouldn't have a problem with using a 9mm. I carry a compact 9mm nearly every day simply because it is a good bang for the size and their aren't many compact, pocket sized .40s available.
Out finding is that all officers shot the semi autos better on qualification scores than the .357 mags revolvers we were currently using once they were oriented to the semi autos. Caliber of the semi auto didn't matter.
We found that the highest scores were with 9mm, with the .40 slightly behind. Both 9 and .40 scores were significantly higher than with .45 acp.
We found that the difference between the 9 and 40 wasn't as great as between the 40 and 45 and that we could narrow the gap between the 9 and 40 with additional training.
We ultimately went with a .40 (Glock 22) and I still believe it to be the best service pistol and caliber combination (and I was and am a big, big fan and promoter, user of the the .45 acp).
I do believe the 40 is a better service cartridge than either the 9mm or .45 acp but if I still ran a department and money was a big issue I wouldn't have a problem with using a 9mm. I carry a compact 9mm nearly every day simply because it is a good bang for the size and their aren't many compact, pocket sized .40s available.
breakingcontact
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My answer: the smart ones. Meaning exactly that. The depts that use science to study it and dont rely on myths or how things were back in the day or what the military did in the Philipines a hundred years ago. Cops especially under stress are not the best shots. Many arent "gun guys" and dont shoot all that much due to not being gun guys or dept budgets.
Im sure some of you can shoot 40 S&W faster and more accurately than me. Awesome. For you...choose a 40 or 10mm for all i care IF YOU can out shoot me with my 9mm then thats a smart choice for you. I dont say 45 as you give up too much capacity.
So yes, to me a big dept choosing anything other than 9mm is objectively less intelligent choice especially if you factor cost in which influences training.
If youve got a 5 person dept and youre all gun guys and shoot 1000 rounds a month you can probably go with whatever reasonable caliber you like.
A big dept, 9mm is the smartest choice.
My same logic applies to concealed carry as well. Not saying 9mm is best for you but overall on average it is the best caliber.
Unfortunately due to costs and policies not everyone on a police force gets to choose the weapon and caliber that is best for them. That would be the smartest choice.
Hows that for high road? Forgive any dumb spelling from my smart phone.
Im sure some of you can shoot 40 S&W faster and more accurately than me. Awesome. For you...choose a 40 or 10mm for all i care IF YOU can out shoot me with my 9mm then thats a smart choice for you. I dont say 45 as you give up too much capacity.
So yes, to me a big dept choosing anything other than 9mm is objectively less intelligent choice especially if you factor cost in which influences training.
If youve got a 5 person dept and youre all gun guys and shoot 1000 rounds a month you can probably go with whatever reasonable caliber you like.
A big dept, 9mm is the smartest choice.
My same logic applies to concealed carry as well. Not saying 9mm is best for you but overall on average it is the best caliber.
Unfortunately due to costs and policies not everyone on a police force gets to choose the weapon and caliber that is best for them. That would be the smartest choice.
Hows that for high road? Forgive any dumb spelling from my smart phone.
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The Columbia (SC) Police Department switched from the SIG P220 in .45ACP to the FN FNS in 9mm a little over a year ago.
The official reason was because of the capacity increase, lower recoil, and lower cost of ammo. The real reason probably has a lot to do with the fact that FN Manufacturing (who makes the FNS pistols) is located in... you guessed it... Columbia, SC. No doubt the CPD got a pretty sweet deal.
The official reason was because of the capacity increase, lower recoil, and lower cost of ammo. The real reason probably has a lot to do with the fact that FN Manufacturing (who makes the FNS pistols) is located in... you guessed it... Columbia, SC. No doubt the CPD got a pretty sweet deal.
This is somewhat off topic, but I find that LE agencies tend to be very trendy when it comes to choosing sidearms. When that whole DAO craze started taking off in the early 90's, a lot of agencies switched to that. Then, they all started switching over to Glocks, as if there could be anything MORE different from a DAO gun.
In 2012, one of the largest municipal PDs in the USA, located in Texas, was just a chief's signature away from authorizing 9mm as an alternative to the .40, which had been the standard for primary duty pistols since 1997. Knowing this, and with increasingly arthritic and aching hands, I bought my G17, in antcipation. The proposal was well-written and researched, and I would not doubt that our firearms training folks compared notes and data with Texas DPS.
Well, my chief did not sign the proposal into policy, but then suprised us by authorizing .45 ACP as an alternative duty cartridge for uniformed personnel, last month.
I did, however, start exercising my option to carry my G17 as a secondary pistol at work, and for my primary weapon when off the clock. (Our plain-clothed detectives and investigators can qual with the 9mm G19 as primary duty pistols, but all uniformed personnel must carry .40 or .45 ACP.) The sudden recent addition of .45 ACP gives me hope that 9mm has a chance of being added in the future, though maybe not soon enough to benefit me, as I may retire within a year or two.
Well, my chief did not sign the proposal into policy, but then suprised us by authorizing .45 ACP as an alternative duty cartridge for uniformed personnel, last month.
I did, however, start exercising my option to carry my G17 as a secondary pistol at work, and for my primary weapon when off the clock. (Our plain-clothed detectives and investigators can qual with the 9mm G19 as primary duty pistols, but all uniformed personnel must carry .40 or .45 ACP.) The sudden recent addition of .45 ACP gives me hope that 9mm has a chance of being added in the future, though maybe not soon enough to benefit me, as I may retire within a year or two.
Quiet
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As with other government agencies, LE agencies budget is public information because it's tax payer money. What they spend the public's money on, needs to be disclosed and that information made available to the public.hentown said:
In addition, there's finding out via personal experience working with whichever LE agencies.
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