Why has LE drifted away from 9MM?

[David E]

It was, however, an equipment selection failure.

That's like saying it's the kicker's fault for losing the game in the waning seconds by missing the 64 yd field goal, upwind......while overlooking the 6 interceptions and 7 turnovers that put them in that position in the first place.

It was a monumental HUMAN failure on the agents part on many levels.

[/thread drift]

 

[golden]

I am issued a .40, but prefer a 9m.m.

My agency was one of the first, large Federal agencies to adopt the .40 S&W. We went with the 155 grain bullet based on our experience with the .357 magnum revolvers that were then issued and 9m.m. pistols that were allowed under the private purchase carry.

We had good results with both, but the FIREARMS officers were adamant that we should be carrying basically a 12 shot .357 magnum equivalent. It proved itself in the field with no complaints about stopping power failure.

Now, we are shifting to the 135 grain loads. I think the main reason is that recoil of the 155 grain bullets is hard on both the shooters and the guns. We wore out many of our BERETTA 96 Brigadiers.

Now we have just about gotten rid of all the GLOCK 17 pistols and 9m.m. ammo. We have had some problems with small framed and older officers using the H&K. The heavier springs cause one problem with racking the slides and a few officers may not be able to qualify.

Interestingly enough, our average qualification scores have improved since we went all .40 caliber.

I am ambivalent about the .40. I like the power, but prefer the easier shooting 9m.m. That is what I carry off duty, shoot most of the time and would bet my life on if it came down to it.

At close range, I cannot tell the difference in my shooting with either caliber, but as the range goes up, the 9m.m. seems to shoot better for me.

Jim

 

[Ken451]

Miami shootout of 1986 involving FBI agents and and two armed assailants.

Look it up.

This was not the only reason but it definitely tipped the balance of the FBI and then everybody else eventually going to the 40. (after a brief stint with the 10mm)

Definitely! A 10mm in hand beats a .38 special lost somewhere under the car seat

Also 9's and 38s aren't very effective against ballistic vests (not that .40 or .45 is either) and the FBI agents didn't wise up and try head shots.

After all, it couldn't be that the FBI agents did a poor job (they are perfect, of course), so it just had to be the ammo.

 

[Manco]

Miami was not a ammunition failure as much as it was a failure of tactics and an amazing demonstration of the will to live by Platt and to a lesser degree by Matix.

As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

That doesn't sound like a failure of the round to me.

Just because there were more significant failures that day in Miami should not be an excuse for us to simply ignore the fact that the ammunition also failed. In order to maximize its potential, a low-energy pistol bullet must penetrate all the way through its intended target, which a solid 9mm bullet would probably have done even in this case, for example.

Now, don't get me wrong--the 9mm caliber itself was not at fault but was used as a scapegoat anyway. I understand that, but I think that a better understanding of handgun wounding factors also came out of this event, and I don't think it is helpful to dismiss it just because there were other failures.

I believe Law Enforcement in some countries do carry .380s. Couldn't tell you which ones off the top of my head but rest assured the almighty "four" rounds are an american phenomenon.

However, going up in caliber over time is not strictly an American phenomenon, and neither is the nagging feeling that whatever you happen to be using is not quite up to the task, especially if it ever fails (as all calibers will). In particular, the Munich Olympics massacre appears to have contributed to the trend of 9mm replacing smaller pistol calibers in Europe, whether such a change was warranted or not.

As for why calibers in the US tend to be larger at any given time, there could be a number of contributing factors, including greater usage of handguns by police, which accelerates the whole process of upgrading caliber. There are also notable cases of the early military use of pistols by US forces that resulted in larger calibers being adopted almost from the beginning, which then psychologically and culturally play a part in favoring larger calibers in pistols.

 

[Ben86]

Now, don't get me wrong--the 9mm caliber itself was not at fault but was used as a scapegoat anyway.

So many people don't understand this. It was a failure of bullet design to meet the requirements of that situation, not caliber. These days 115-147 grain bullets work just fine. 124 grain being my preference, and the original intended weight if I'm not mistaken.

 

[kev778]

Just because there were more significant failures that day in Miami should not be an excuse for us to simply ignore the fact that the ammunition also failed. In order to maximize its potential, a low-energy pistol bullet must penetrate all the way through its intended target, which a solid 9mm bullet would probably have done even in this case, for example.

Now, don't get me wrong--the 9mm caliber itself was not at fault but was used as a scapegoat anyway. I understand that, but I think that a better understanding of handgun wounding factors also came out of this event, and I don't think it is helpful to dismiss it just because there were other failures.

I believe Law Enforcement in some countries do carry .380s. Couldn't tell you which ones off the top of my head but rest assured the almighty "four" rounds are an american phenomenon.

However, going up in caliber over time is not strictly an American phenomenon, and neither is the nagging feeling that whatever you happen to be using is not quite up to the task, especially if it ever fails (as all calibers will). In particular, the Munich Olympics massacre appears to have contributed to the trend of 9mm replacing smaller pistol calibers in Europe, whether such a change was warranted or not.

As for why calibers in the US tend to be larger at any given time, there could be a number of contributing factors, including greater usage of handguns by police, which accelerates the whole process of upgrading caliber. There are also notable cases of the early military use of pistols by US forces that resulted in a larger calibers being adopted almost from the beginning, which then psychologically and culturally play a part in favoring larger calibers in pistols.

Let's clarify something a 9mm and a 380 auto bullet are exactly the same diameter .355

The difference is the 9mm is a heavier bullet with a 2mm longer case (holds more powder) thus it has more power

see: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_difference_between_a_9mm_caliber_bullet_and_a_380_bullet

So stating that going up in caliber is actually false. Power yes but not caliber

 

[00 Buckshot]

There are a lot of right answers on this thread spread out over many posts!

Here's my take on the topic:

Gun battles are won or lost based on shot placement, regardless of caliber.

A firearms instructor once told the class I was in that stopping a bad guy is all about blood loss. The larger the wound(s) created by the bullet penetration the sooner the bad guy will drop, thereby ending his lethal force threat. The instructor's philosophy dictated using the largest caliber available to you.

As stated by many in this thread, hollow-point bullet design has come a long way in the past several decades. This means smaller caliber bullets effectively become larger caliber bullets upon expanding in soft tissue (provided expansion occurs as intended).

I have heard numerous times that the adoption of the Beretta 92 as the U. S. Army's side arm was one of the major factors that created the high capacity handgun boom in the late 70's & early 80's. (I have also heard numerous times that the adoption of the Beretta 92 by the U. S. Army succeeded in large part so Italy would allow U. S. Military Bases in their country.) Nearly every major gun manufacturer began creating high capacity 9mm handguns. Then the transition from revolvers to semi-automatic 9mm handguns in the law enforcement community began to really take off.

The infamous FBI Miami shootout is without doubt the single most important event to change the law enforcement community's perception of the ability of the 9mm round to effectively end lethal force confrontations!

Many law enforcement agencies look to the FBI as the premier source of information regarding techniques and equipment that should be used by the law enforcement community. Smaller police agencies simply do not have the same resources available to them that the FBI does. When the FBI makes a change many police agencies will simply "follow the leader" in regard to type of handgun and caliber to use.

The .40 S&W cartridge is currently a top choice for law enforcement agencies because it offers a good compromise between bullet diameter and available rounds in the magazine. A good hollow point bullet design will give expansion and performance very similar to a .45 yet a Glock 22 offers 16 rounds on board before a reload would be necessary as compared to a 1911 style pistol where you have 7-8 rounds on board. The .40 S&W round is considered more "controllable" in regards to recoil also. I have seen shooters struggle to control the recoil of larger calibers. And then there is the pistol frame size to consider. A double stack .45 handgun just doesn't work for shooters with smaller hands.

One of the things I haven't seen talked about in this post is firing under stress. If you are facing a lethal force threat like being shot at I think it would be safe to assume you will be under a severe amount of stress, the more severe (dangerous) the threat the more severe the stress level. Studies have shown that when shooters are under stress they will not be as likely to hit their target as effectively. This is a major reason to have more rounds available.

9mm typically gives you the most rounds per gun with, depending on ammunition choice, marginal ballistic performance. The .45 will give you the least rounds per gun and perhaps the best ballistic performance. The .40 S&W is the compromise between better ballistic performance and a larger amount of rounds available.

So to respond to the original post I believe 9mm is not as popular due to poor historical ballistic performance and newer choices that have become available as a result.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Gun battles are won or lost based on shot placement, regardless of caliber.

We have a winner!

My understanding based on experts that I have read, including Doctor Roberts(DocGKR), is that the latest offerings in defensive 9mm loadings are comparable to 40 and 45 in performace. The biggest difference is that 40 and 45 do a better job of barrier penetration than 9mm. With officers having to deal with things like car doors, windshield glass, etc., the 40 and 45 make more sense.

Link to some good reading
Two things that I have taken from this-

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

 

[KenW.]

Many a US GI and Allies died at the muzzle of a NAZI 9mm loaded with FMJ. I'll not speak poorly of 9mm with modern ammo; even though I prefer the 45ACP.

Even still, there is a XD9 subcompact on my belt right now.

 

[Fastcast]

Gun battles are won or lost based on shot placement, regardless of caliber.

Where did you get such a silly notion? .....To hear some here on THR, gun fights are won by whomever carries the largest caliber, whether they hit anything vital or not.

Now where did I put my 12ga. slug pistol.....Oh, that's right, it's in my pocket.....I win!

 

[Ken451]

To hear some here on THR, gun fights are won by whomever carries the largest caliber,

That's because we are all perfect shots. I know that's true 'cuz I read it on the Internet.

 

[xXxplosive]

Larger caliber...........more room for error mentallity.....

 

[Ken451]

Larger caliber...........more room for error mentallity....

I always thought it was the opposite: 9mm, higher capacity, more room for error.

 

[gym]

Now that you can get 0mm ammo that is almost as powerful as a 357, there is no real advantage. If you go look at Hickock 45's video where he fired just about every caliber fromm 44mag down to 22, the steel plate did not move much different from 44mag to 9mm. They are in fact, pistol ammo, and by their nature can just accomplish, so much. Much more can be said for the ability to hit the heart or head. Then you don't have to bother with debates. I would love to carry my 45's all day, and did when I was younger. Now it's like carrying around a 5 pound weight. The law of diminishing returns kicks in. You ain't getting much more for the annoyance of having your delicate parts hurting you from carrying around a hand cannon, IWB. Precision shooting will negate the difference, IMO. You give one of these little folks a 45 and you are going to have the same problem they had with the 10 mm, male or female. You cannot discriminate anymore on tests to determine strength, so it must work for everyone, seldom does that occur in real life. I saw a guy I know who couldn't rack his new 45, he thought it was broken. Laugh as I did, and said gimmie that, he still can't pull back the slide. So that has a lot to do with it. Imagine being fired at, and your partner can't properlly load up his or her weapon. Or hold on to it.

 

[Weevil]

Many a US GI and Allies died at the muzzle of a NAZI 9mm loaded with FMJ.

I wonder how much of the 9mm hate is due to it being Un-American?


It is a European caliber and was used by our enemy in two world wars, and it did indeed kill a lot of Americans. Then it has some wussy metric system name with "millimeter" in it instead of a real American name with a . something or another like a .45 or a .38 or .357. Everybody knows real Americans hate the metric system. This maybe what hurt the 10mm too.

But you can't get much more American sounding than the .40 Smith and Wesson a good ol' true blue caliber born right here in the good ol' US of A.




Just a thought.

 

[00 Buckshot]

Originally posted by Weevil:

I wonder how much of the 9mm hate is due to it being Un-American?


I'm not sure there is any Un-American bias in regards to the 9mm caliber. Following that logic the law enforcement community would only use American made firearms. That would exclude the Glock brand firearms as well as Springfield Armory's XD line (made in Croatia), Sig Sauer, H & K, Beretta, ... and the list goes on!

In the past the 9mm round was used in deadly force conflicts with unkind results: Bad guys continued to fight after being shot with 9mm rounds and hurt or killed the good guys.

As far as the context of this post is concerned the 9mm has fallen out of favor because of the previously mentioned details regarding 9mm ballistic performance.

I personally have nothing against the 9mm and have several available to me at all times for self defense purposes. I trust the 9mm completely with my life and the lives of those I protect. I also choose my ammo accordingly.

But is the 9mm my primary choice for home defense? Well, that is beyond the realm of this posting

 

[Weevil]

Well there's not going to be much hate against an XD or a Glock because they were never used against Americans in a war.

They didn't even exist a little over 20 or 30 years ago, but the 9mm has a long history of killing American soldiers on the battlefields of Europe going back almost 100 years.


The 9mm is an infamous legend from the wars over there, the archrival of America's beloved .45 for decades.


These Johnny-come-lately pistols don't have the kind of history the 9mm does.



Besides you can get all those pistols chambered in .40 and .45.

 

[DrLaw]

I know this will sound stupid, but...

I think a lot of departments go with what is fashionable or what the heirarchy likes.

When I was working, it was either Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers. Rugers? Well they were there, but nobody wanted to 'risk their lives' on something new.

Of course, at the time, everybody knew that .45 1911's were out there, but they were so inaccurate that you would not want to risk your life or the life of the public on them (probably based on worn out military 1911's).

A couple agencies had Smith & Wesson 9's, Illinois State Police being one. Then Ruger came out with the P85. Wisconsin State Patrol bought into that, and I think some eastern state. (Conn?)

But some noticed that you sometimes had to use up a whole magazine on somebody hopped up on drugs. Let's go to a bigger caliber. For a little while, there was the .45 resurging, but then, the 40 S&W came about. WOW! BLAZING POWER and controllable, too.

Of course, people are noticing again that coppers are shooting a lot with not much in the way of results, especially on people in cars. (C'mon, admit it, you watch those reality shows on Tru-TV). So the fashion will undoubtedly change again.

Another thing to consider is that just because somebody gets into a police hierarchy, it does not necessarily mean that they are the brightest bulb for the lamp. So some places will get personal preference born of ignorance. :banghead: I've known cops who did not know how to unload a Colt SAA and a Chief who believed that a 4" barrel was a thousand times more accurate than a 3-1/2 inch barrel (Who remembers the Model 27 in it's original FBI configuration?). You have all heard the stories, too, about somebody who didn't know squat about some gun and made assumptions about them.

Nope, I tend to think that it boils down to fashion and what the higher-ups think as opposed to practical reality.

The Doc is out now.

 

[george d dennis]

connecticut had beretta 92s. and now use sig 229 .40
i myself wouldnt want to be shot with a bb gun never
mind anything else. over the years its been always a
argument which caliber has the best stopping power.
and its stiil going to be one in the future. i say, what
ever you shoot good with. one day i might carry a 9mm
or a .40 or 45, depends which one i feel like carrying.
and i hope to god i never have to take it out.

 

[Manco]

Here's my take on the topic:

Gun battles are won or lost based on shot placement, regardless of caliber.

True enough, but shot placement--like everything else in the universe--ultimately depends on chance. Training and being highly skilled can increase one's odds significantly, which makes them valuable, but the outcome still rests on chance. And although controversial as to the extent, caliber can also improve the odds of individual shots being effective, which must then be balanced against other factors in the wider perspective, such as capacity and ease of shooting. Additionally, there are factors to consider such as penetration, which is influenced by both caliber and bullet design.

As somebody who has recommended .22 LR to some folks for self-defense, I'm very cognizant of the importance of shot placement, but at the same time there are reasons that I use a larger caliber myself (for one, because I can).

As stated by many in this thread, hollow-point bullet design has come a long way in the past several decades. This means smaller caliber bullets effectively become larger caliber bullets upon expanding in soft tissue (provided expansion occurs as intended).

Yes, but bullets that start out larger are typically also larger when they expand, and while expansion is usually measured in the linear dimension of diameter, the area (and volume when combined with penetration) of the wound channel--which would seem to determine how much bleeding occurs--increases much faster according to the square of the diameter. Momentum--far more than energy, it appears--is a good indicator of the potential of a pistol bullet to wound, and larger calibers tend to launch bullets that have greater momentum. How much of a difference in real-world terms this makes is debatable, and I personally think it is not great between the common service calibers (including 9mm), but it's still not nothing.

The infamous FBI Miami shootout is without doubt the single most important event to change the law enforcement community's perception of the ability of the 9mm round to effectively end lethal force confrontations!

The perception is, in my opinion, wrong, but this does not chance the fact that perceptions themselves can be a factor. Those who depend on their handguns for their protection and their very lives ideally should have confidence in the ammunition they're using, and upping the caliber is an easy and effective--if misguided and unnecessary in truth--way to eliminate the false perception that the tools they use are ineffective.

 

[tomwalshco]

Didn't read all the posts, so don't know if this is covered, but - The video of the Detroit police station shooting is floating around. What got my attention was the cop that eventually took the rat-bastard down shot him twice at almost point blank range with what looked like a 9 and the guy kept coming with a pump shotgun.

The dude did have a lot of clothes on, jacket and sweaters and such....

But it did get me thinking.

Shot placement? Worn-out old saw. Do you think those guys in Detroit were trying to find the G-spot on that guy's jacket? Anyone trying to "wing" him? Shoot the gun out of his hand like Roy Rogers? These guys did the best they could under the circumstances.

Something a dopey reporter would ask, "Tell us, Sarge. What vital organ was the focus of your shot placement? Spleen?"

 

[ET]

I used to carry a 9mm as my CC gun of choice. Yes it is cheaper to shoot, some of the +p ammo does start to approach the 40s&w energy level, but for the last 3 years I've carried either 40s&w or 357sig exclusively. The 40s&w is a more massive projectile than the 9mm. The 357sig is a 9mm-ish projectile fired with 40s&w power. In my thinking "bigger is better". I'll take the power over the cost savings all day long. Some people carry 9mm guns because the recoil isn't as hard as the 40s&w or the 357sig. Well, there is more recoil because there is more energy going in the opposite direction (when all other factors such as gun weight remain equal). Remember, every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Just saying...

 

[bigfatdave]

The 40s&w is a more massive projectile than the 9mm.

So why don't you carry .50AE or .40GI?

 

[silversport]

The perception is, in my opinion, wrong, but this does not chance the fact that perceptions themselves can be a factor. Those who depend on their handguns for their protection and their very lives ideally should have confidence in the ammunition they're using, and upping the caliber is an easy and effective--if misguided and unnecessary in truth--way to eliminate the false perception that the tools they use are ineffective.

I agree the Miami Shoot Out didn't do the most to kill the 9MM...ineffectual 9MM rounds did that but the Miami Shoot Out did do the MOST for the current development of the best 9MM rounds we have ever had...the FBI Protocol that EVERY bullet manufacturer follows (at least in some of their lines) to be LE competitive is a direct result of the Miami Shoot Out between Platt, Matix and the FBI agents...
Bill

 

[Weevil]

So why don't you carry .50AE or .40GI?

So why don't you carry a .380 or a .32acp?