What length is good?

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HI express

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My nephew came home for a visit after his first tour in Iraq. He will be heading back out for his second tour soon.

One of the things that he had to do was decompress (heavy stress from house to house searches). Meanwhile, he would grab my Springfield M1A1 Scout Rifle on the way into the house and begin "checking the house out."

With a normal three bedroom house he was noticing that cutting the pie throughout the house was not easy with a rifle, even with an abbreviated barrel. (Which is why I have handguns) and a 18" shotgun.

In your estimate, if you had to check your house out due to a bump in the night, what would be your weapon of choice and what barrel length?

Thanks for you input.
 
I tend to favor the "You can have anything in the house you want but if you come down the hallway, you won't get far" mentality. I don't much care for the idea of giving up cover and leaving my resources (ammo stored in bedroom) to check out a noise at night.

To answer your question though, I would be perfectly comfortable with my 18" shotgun.
 
The first and most important question is: Which weapon offers the most in the way of "stopping power" (to quote that horrible term)? A long gun, whether rifle or shotgun, usually offers two to three times as much energy per round as the average handgun, so that's a no-brainer. I want to carry the weapon that will do me the most good, and the BG on the other end the most damage.

That said, in very (and I mean VERY) confined quarters, a handgun may be a better choice: but one can usually position oneself, and carry a long gun in such a way, that it's still a viable option for most house-clearing chores. I agree that a shorter weapon will be easier to handle in tighter spots, which is why a 16" barrel is a good thing on a carbine, or an 18" barrel on a shotgun. If you train to use it properly, there should be no problem.
 
Maybe somebody could outline the basics of house clearing ...?

As I understand it, clearing a house is extremely difficult and there's no safe way to do it alone. Should only be attempted (like going down the stairs ;) ) when there are no other alternatives.

As for long gun length, an unmodified Scout M1A is, according to the Springfield website, 40 inches, making it considerably longer than a collapsed M4gery but about as long as the average HD shotgun. I prefer handguns in cramped quarters because they can be carried and shot from a retention position, whereas it's easy for an assailant to surprise you and get into the minimum range of your long arm.
 
Maybe I'm alone on this, but I would only need to clear as far as the other bedrooms, then get everyone safe in one place I could defend while I waited for the professionals to show up and clear the house for me. Guess it really depends on the layout of the bedrooms in relation to yours.
 
The basics of clearing a house ... ? That would take up a medium sized book. And it really and truly cannot be learned on paper; you have to learn it by doing it, over and over again, until you can, at least sometimes, get it right.

There's a reason everyone tells you not to do it!

Nevertheless. If your master bedroom is downstairs and your children sleep upstairs, you may have Darn Good Reason to check out the bump in the night. I for one have no intention of leaving my children in harm's way while I huddle in the safe room, and I cannot just set up shop at the top of the stairwell because the floor plan of my house isn't exactly conducive to that. (But what I'll do is race to where they are, cautiously but quickly. I won't do a full search, just glance and go. This is not clearing a house ... and it is stupid, just less stupid than hiding in safety while my loved ones may be at risk. That's the choice I've made.)

But maybe your situation means that you really and truly have to really search. So here's a quick overview. Again, don't do this if you have any reasonable alternative.

Important base concept: Slice the Pie. Just as you probably would not sit down to eat an entire pie in one huge indigestible mass, you cannot search an entire house all at once. If you break the pie into smaller pieces, and then break each piece into bite-size portions, the pie is more manageable ... and so is your house. From where you are standing, check everything you can see. Check slowly, and check again. Any time you get overwhelmed with the size or danger of the job you just took on, break it down into a smaller piece, something that isn't so overwhelming. Do one thing at a time, one area at a time.

So there you are, standing there. Looking.

What are you looking for? Pieces of people. You aren't looking for an entire human being. You're looking for a flash of color where it shouldn't be that color. You're looking for someone's oversized tennis shoe sticking out from under the drapes. You're looking for a sliver of someone's elbow.

You're also looking for danger points. If the room you are in is clear, your danger points are the entryways into that room -- the window(s) and doorway(s). Those are the spots to watch. If you don't yet know the room is clear, your danger points are anywhere an attacker might be hiding: the closet, the other side of the bed where you cannot see the floor, behind the wardrobe, behind the open door. You must watch all of the danger spots, every time you move. As you move, old danger spots will close off and new ones will open up to you; be aware of this and keep watching the new ones.

You're using all your senses. Smell the air. Does it smell like someone's been smoking in your non-smoking home? That's what we call A Clue that someone might be in the room with you. Listen! Do you hear anything at all? A shuffled foot, a faint breath, anything? What direction did the sound come from?

You still haven't moved, have you? Good. When you move, you're going to move quietly. But not yet. First you're going to equalize the environment. If you're in the light and the next room is dark, you are at a disadvantage, because you'll be very visible to an attacker who isn't as visible. Equalize by either turning all the lights off, or all the lights on. Don't get silhouetted in the doorway, or a window, or anywhere else.

Okay, now it's time to move. Don't move your feet yet. Start with your eyeball. Your eyeball is going to lead you around corners -- not your feet, not your hands, not the gun. Your eyeball goes first. Tilt your head and blade your body to the nearest, biggest, worst danger point so that your eyeball leads. Lean out slightly and look at everything there, floor to ceiling.

If there are other danger spots (there will be), look at them too. Then and only then, take one small step toward the danger point you just checked. Stop and listen. Keep using your eyes and your nose. Lean slightly and check everything again.

Does this sound slow? It is. Clearing a house takes just about forever.

Keep your back to a wall if you can. This cuts your danger from 360 degrees down to 180 degrees.

Remember where the mirrors are in your house. It'd be embarrassing to shoot one. (And more embarrassing to be killed by a BG who was watching your every action in one...)

Stay behind cover as much as you can, or behind concealment. (A standard indoor wall is not cover -- it won't stop a bullet. It's concealment.) Concealment is better than standing in the open.

Never ever ever expose your body to an area you haven't yet cleared.

Don't stop in doorways. See as much of the room as you can by slicing the pie first one direction, then the other direction. Then choose a specific place in the room you're going to move to -- someplace you know is safe. When you move into the room, go very very quickly. Get your back to a wall, and keep your eye on the part of the room you haven't yet seen.

Don't get outlined by a window. Remember BGs can be outside the house looking in -- or climbing in.

Human beings can fit into incredibly small spaces. Remember this well.

Don't forget to look up high. Many predators like to hunt from a high spot, because prey rarely looks up.

If you see something out of place, something you know for sure means a BG is in your home, leave if you can. Don't go into denial. Don't keep looking for more evidence. Just grab your loved ones and go. There is nothing in the house worth your life.

If you use a "quick peek" around a corner or into a closet ... and spot a BG ...don't go back! At that point, the search is over. You can stand behind cover or concealment and command him out, or you can leave the house to him and call the cops. What you cannot and should not do is go back in after he's seen you, because then he has the advantage.

If you spot a BG, but the BG hasn't yet seen you, remember you can leave. You do not have to engage him unless you desire to do so. If you do engage him, if you are inside your own home, in most jurisdictions you do not have to give a verbal warning. Remember you can give a verbal warning or command if you wish.

If you do verbally engage the BG, don't be a wuss about it. "DON'T MOVE!" explosively shouted from the diaphragm, is a pretty good opening line. "Um ...eerrrrr, excuse me, what are you doing in my house...?" is not quite as good.

BGs have friends too. If you spot a lone BG, remember this ... and don't get caught by tunnel vision.

When you think you have the basics of searching down pat, play hide-n-seek with a 10 year old who's armed with a rubber band gun ... or with a buddy who's carrying an Airsoft.

pax
 
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nicely done, pax

I'm going to have to read that through a few more time...lots of good info.
 
I live alone. I don't have to clear the house to protect loved ones. So I call the cops and let them do it.

Otherwise, I'd get a couple of large and fiercely protective dogs. Once they located and engaged the threats then I could shoot them while they are shooting the dogs or getting chewed on.

It's a shame that we have to lose soldiers clearing houses. Heavily armored bulldozers demolishing their hides would be better. Have the soldiers in covering positions to shoot anyone who tries to escaped armed.

I realized that someone was in my house at 0200 one morning. I left the house and took up a concealed position where I could see both doors after calling the cops at a neighbor's (pre-cell phone). He left through a window I couldn't see before the cops arrived. I began to carry 24/7. I bought vigilant and eager Dobermans and Rottweilers. Afterwards, if I opened my door and was not immediately greeted by a dog...I retreated and called the police.
 
Of course, it helps if the BG's in your house aren't the brightest sparks in the fireworks show... I recall clearing a house back in the '80's, when one of the BG's decided that a good hiding-place would be behind one of the full-length curtains next to the window. Good idea - except that one of his shoes protruded from underneath the curtain. He didn't survive the learning experience. :p
 
1) Ask your nephew how many people work together with him in house to house searches

2) Ask him how long they have been working together and what training they had for the job (MOUT or whatever)

3) Gather that many people, get the same training and experience, and clear away. Otherwise, you roll the dice on suicide, most especially if you wander out all alone to see what went bump in the night. House clearing is a team sport....

Seriously, get a dog. Doesn't have to be a four-figure pricetag professionally trained protection dog, a pound puppy with enough guts to bark at strangers and enough sense to be housebroken will do. Pick yourself a place to hunker down and wait it out. Use/set up the nightlights and mirrors and furniture to your advantage. Have a cell phone available, and whatever artillery you choose.

Or don't. Maybe it won't be your night to die after all, who knows?

lpl/nc
 
Let loose the hounds. They will let you know ponto if someone is in the house. If you don't have one, get two! Then after they have done their job, you can either call 911 to say you think there is an intruder in your house and your dogs are going at him or, you can come out because the dogs are calm and all is in most probability ok. Just in case though, make sure to come out with your 12 gauge or with a short carbine. I prefer the shotgun, Remington 870, 20 inch barrel. Of course the handgun would be on my side.
 
Thanks, pax :)


Just a note: some of us live 25 miles from town and deputy response (they never patrol out here). Can't be calling out the cops to figure out what one of the cats knocked over. OTOH, if the dog is happy everything is probably okay.

During the past winter, I had to "clear" our yard every morning in the dark (the reasons for this have already been discussed in a couple other threads). I did think out a path around the yard that involved the least blind corners, such that I could light up around the corners as I went. I stayed out a ways from the buildings so that I was out of reach coming around a corner. I realize that's probably not a good idea either but I was mostly trying to avoid a contact fight.
 
I know the talk about short carbines and 12-gauges are the height of this discussion; I guess this means I'm the one to start the flame war against me! :neener: :D

The proper length? The gun I can get my hands on the quickest and readied with. Heck, my .38 snub-nose will do the job if I need it to!

Then again, I live in a 1-bedroom apartment. Not much to clear there (bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, living room).

-38SnubFan
 
With my new place, a handgun is probably the best tool out of all the ones I own.

I'd grab either my FN Forty-Nine or the CZ75B. Compact and reliable. They are short and powerful enough. If one isn't enough, I have at least 13 more rounds in the Forty-Nine or 14 in the CZ.
I can hold a flashlight in one hand gun in the other.

I'd like to use my new SLR-105R, but my stairwell is really narrow and turning around would make turning around quickly rather difficult. Downstairs hallway is narrow as well...not good when one end faces the front door and the other faces the back door.

Handguns are my favorite house clearing tools.
 
Hi Express:
Firstly, I'd be concerned about letting him have a firearm right now. He's obviously a little stressed out if he's searching your home. He might need a heart to heart and some time with a mental health professional.

Secondly, I think I'm a little confused. Is he saying that the dimensions (door widths, hallways, etc) of a typical Iraqi home are different from an American home? Is this why its difficuld to clear your home with a long-gun? What was he room clearing with in Iraq?

Pax:
Damn good post.
 
Experience

Having had to "check out" my house out when I was young and less experienced..I now tend to hunker down in the bedroom at the end of the hall with my shotgun, then my rifle next to it. The pistol is on my hip.

Old age has a way of teaching some good life's lessons. :)
 
Having been trained professionally in building clearings, I'll mention this for others to ponder.

If you have a choice:

1. Stay out of fatal funnels [ silhouetted in a window, stairwells, doorways ] as much as possible

2. Do not enter rooms with unknowns by yourself

3. Do not enter rooms with another unless both of you have weapons and both of you know how to "feed" off one anothers movements and actions upon entering a room.

4. Do not go "hunting" unless absolutely necessary if awakened in the night by an intruder in the home.

5. Never enter a room with a known bad guy/intruder alone unless family members are being killed right then [ hostage situations ]. It is only going to get you killed in trying.

6. If you search with a pistol in your home, remember to compress the gun into your body with your elbows as you round corners.

7. Take corners wide, move slowly when possible and not along their edge.

8. Stairwells? Better have some real good training and partners, the angles are many that pose potential threats.

8a. If you have to run a stairwell/stairs, stay off the walls, and in the center of the stairs.

As to my preference in searching weapons if I do search?

At both swat schools, we had access to shotguns, mp-5sd's, and pistols. We were trained in their use and tactics in clearing scenarios.

When it came time to go "play" in real houses that were abandoned I chose the gov45 and the glock g17 I had brought with me instead of the Benellis or the HK MP-5's.

Robin Brown
 
When it came time to go "play" in real houses that were abandoned I chose the gov45 and the glock g17 I had brought with me instead of the Benellis or the HK MP-5's.

While watching a segment on SF in Iraq, I noticed on of their guys pull out his sidearm instead of using his longarm to clear the house. (Sorry, forgot the exact show and what special forces he was a member of.)
 
Anyone have the pic of a US soldier (or Marine, I don't recall) clearing a building in Iraq with a WWII Soviet SMG?

I thought it was funny to see that in his hands with his M4 or M16 slung over his back.
 
If you use a "quick peek" around a corner or into a closet ... and spot a BG ...don't go back! At that point, the search is over.

As stupid as it sounds, I learned this one from playing multiplayer video games like rainbow six and MOHAA. If you peek around a corner and see someone, step back, then try to peek again or enter the room, you're toast just about everytime.
 
Playing Rambo out at the range I practiced and got relativly good at the "tuck under" (Don't know if there is a real name for it) with my 18" Ithaca 37. Basicly shooting from the hip but you have the gun kind of tucked under you're armpit. Yes it is not the most accurate method, but the gun is much easier to manuver and is instantly ready if a BG gets in front of you. The gun is also quick to shoulder if needed. Just my $.02
 
Firstly, I'd be concerned about letting him have a firearm right now. He's obviously a little stressed out if he's searching your home. He might need a heart to heart and some time with a mental health professional.
dear sweet jeebus, you sound like the same types who are "concerned" about letting law abiding civilians have guns. don't you realize he was armed 24/7 while he was in country if he was going to snap, he would have. maybe it's just possible that hi express and nephew share interests in firearms and tactics. maybe he was demonstrating because of a conversation with his uncle. maybe he saw a fine piece of equipment and wanted to know how practical it was. not all combat veterans are blood-crazed lunatics. matter of fact, it is extremely rare and tends to indicate that a person was not very well balanced to begin with. you make me sick. try giving soldiers a little respect. i'm gonna mutter something about elitism now.

as far as clearing goes, i echo what others have said about teamwork being necessary and individual house clearing being very dangerous. however, i think it's ridiculous to call police every time you hear a weird noise. many of us live in apartments and it's often difficult to tell if noises came from other tennants. when you add in early morning paranoia, you find that you are not content to stay in bed and go back to sleep but maybe you shouldn't call the police on it either (they get annoyed after the 3rd or 4th time in a week). so you attempt to clear the place on your own. i've had a small amount of training in clearing buildings - enough to know that it is downright impossible to do on your own. you do have advantages in clearing your own place, though. one is, obviously, you know the layout. the other is that a crook going through your stuff is probably not expecting armed resistance, otherwise he wouldn't have come in.
 
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