What makes an AR by Colt or FN any better than the AR kit I ordered?

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I would double check the QC on a palmetto rifle if I bought it. I have used quite a few of their barrels, uppers and bolt carrier groups on some fairly hard use guns. No problems.

Two of them are equipped for suppressed use. No problems with barrel and thread concentricity.

I have shot one of them out to 600 yards with a 1-5x optic. Not bad for a $120 barrel with factory 55gr ammo.

Rifle on the right, upper receiver, barrel, bolt and carrier are all PSA. It shoots great.

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With all due respect, you cannot "inspect quality" into your product. By the time inspection gets to it, either the product is in spec or it isn't. No amount of measuring or weighing will change that. If the NDI inspector find a crack, the inspection will not un-crack the part.

Also with all due respect, the above sentiment is absolutely incorrect. Inspection is most frequently a means to prevent defects from reaching the customer. It can’t fix the individual defect, but it CAN AND DOES fix your saleable product volume.

As I pointed out above - inspection is not a lead measure for quality CONTROL, but rather is a lag measure for quality ASSURANCE. In a manner of speaking, inspection can absolutely reduce the number of defects which reach the market.

Improving QC methods is not the only role of QA. If a manufacturer produces and inspects 10,000 triggers, and they catch every defect with insufficient sear length or chipped edges, they’ll send out a perfect batch. If their QC is bad, they’ll only have 1,000 left to sell instead of 10,000, so that’s their “Cost of Poor Quality.”

Quality Assuance is used in all kinds of industries to improve saleable product quality (or even reduce it to industry standards). The good ol’ RBOB is an example of how QA inspectjon is used to REDUCE product quality - reformulated gasoline produced which has a lower RVP than required by the destination state is then blended with high range RVP or even out of high spec batches to hit the states’ mandates. In other words - great gas is tainted with poor gas to make OK gas. Another example of a QA program effect on saleable product quality is the food industry - metal detection at the front of food production processes - quality control - is only refined enough to stop large enough pieces of metal which would damage equipment. The product metal detection limits are set to reject MUCH smaller particles. For some food production processes - example: whole muscle meats like steak - there is no metal detection up front, only on the output product. So in a world where a piece of slag in your Sirloin is a defect, the ONLY quality control mechanism is actually a quality ASSURANCE inspection of the finished product, before it leaves to be sold to the consumer. Pharmaceutical products work much the same way, input products are certified by their respective manufacturers, but are not quality tested by the final drug manufacturer - so the QA program by the primary site acts as part of the QC program for the final product manufacturer. The final producer then inspects, analyzes, and certifies his finished product for quality, and rejects out-of-spec product.

CCI’s BR primers are another example - they check weigh every individual primer in a batch to ensure tight tolerances. Out-of-spec primers are rejected from the batch, which assures product quality to the customer, who is wanting a consistent lot of primers. So this inspection process indeed reduces the variability of the product the consumer will buy - in a world where out of tolerance variability is a defect.

Ford sells trucks - if their brake rotor inspection process eliminates all excursions of trucks hitting the lot with cracked rotors, then inspection DID improve quality of their products. Colt sells AR’s, if MPI’s - magnetic particle INSPECTIONS - eliminate their AR’s from hitting the sale rack with cracked bolt lugs, then their product quality is improved by inspection. Without question, Ford would still have a pile of rejected cracked rotors, and Colt would still have a pile of rejected, cracked bolts, but neither hit the consumer.
 
Also with all due respect, the above sentiment is absolutely incorrect. Inspection is most frequently a means to prevent defects from reaching the customer. It can’t fix the individual defect, but it CAN AND DOES fix your saleable product volume.

You're changing and blurring the definitions of quality control and quality assurance.

Manufacturing controls the quality of the product.

Inspection can only assure quality. If they find a defect, they can only reject the product. Quality Assurance is important to catch mistakes.

While working at McDonnell-Douglas, I attended training to teach us the differences and the role of each in improving the control of each process and the quality of the product.
 
With all due respect, the subject of this thread isn’t to define the difference between QC and QA, so in reality it isn’t particularly relevant to the subject matter. What we’re here to answer is what makes one or the other AR manufacture’s products “better;” not what makes their manufacturing process better so that QA doesn’t reject as many defects; what makes their products better?

I’m in the products business. Product quality is different than manufacturing quality. How do you define quality as it relates to products? I define it as “the degree to which the customer perceives the product has met their expectation of value.” You can control the quality of your product by several means. One of which is to use a high focus on quality control within your manufacturing process to increase conformity to specifications. A second way can be to focus more on quality assurance to reduce the number of low quality products that reach the hand of the customer.

When we are purchasing a product, generally we care more about product quality and the fact that the manufacture had to melt down 100 widgets for every 1 good widget makes no difference to us as long as QA ensured I got the 1 good one, and the manufacturing model is such that economics work out so that I feel I’m paying a reasonable price for my product. Now, a manufacture of course cares about QC because it affects their bottom line. If the expense of manufaturing a widget is high, Youre likely focus heavily on QC and ensure that You have a high degree of repeatability. If the cost of manufacturing a widget is very low compared to the finished value, you may decide to instead invest more on QA because it’s more economical to have waste or rework than it is to invest in a more repeatable manufacturing practices.

When working at McDonald Douglas I’m sure there is a high degree of focus on both. The reason being is that manufacturing a a great upstream expense to building something like an extruded spar cap for an aircraft, and you don’t want to have a high degree of manufacturing defects. Secondly, the when you’re manufacturing an Aerospace product there is a great downstream expense of a defective product making it into a customer’s hands.

Ryan

You're changing and blurring the definitions of quality control and quality assurance.

Manufacturing controls the quality of the product.

Inspection can only assure quality. If they find a defect, they can only reject the product. Quality Assurance is important to catch mistakes.

While working at McDonnell-Douglas, I attended training to teach us the differences and the role of each in improving the control of each process and the quality of the product.
 
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With all due respect, the subject of this thread isn’t to define the difference between QC and QA, so in reality it isn’t particularly relevant to the subject matter. What we’re here to answer is what makes one or the other AR manufacture’s products “better;” not what makes their manufacturing process better so that QA doesn’t reject as many defects; what makes their products better?

I’m in the products business. Product quality is different than manufacturing quality. How do you define quality as it relates to products? I define it as “the degree to which the customer perceives the product has met their expectation of value.” You can control the quality of your product by several means. One of which is to use a high focus on quality control within your manufacturing process to increase conformity to specifications. A second way can be to focus more on quality assurance to reduce the number of low quality products that reach the hand of the customer.

When we are purchasing a product, generally we care more about product quality and the fact that the manufacture had to melt down 100 widgets for every 1 good widget makes no difference to us as long as QA ensured I got the 1 good one, and the manufacturing model is such that economics work out so that I feel I’m paying a reasonable price for my product. Now, a manufacture of course cares about QC because it affects their bottom line. If the expense of manufaturing a widget is high, Youre likely focus heavily on QC and ensure that You have a high degree of repeatability. If the cost of manufacturing a widget is very low compared to the finished value, you may decide to instead invest more on QA because it’s more economical to have waste or rework than it is to invest in a more repeatable manufacturing practices.

When working at McDonald Douglas I’m sure there is a high degree of focus on both. The reason being is that manufacturing a a great upstream expense to building something like an extruded spar cap for an aircraft, and you don’t want to have a high degree of manufacturing defects. Secondly, the when you’re manufacturing an Aerospace product there is a great downstream expense of a defective product making it into a customer’s hands.

Ryan
You still don't get it
 
While working at McDonnell-Douglas, I attended training to teach us the differences and the role of each in improving the control of each process and the quality of the product.

As a black belt in lean six sigma, I’ve been the guy the last decade who trains people like you on the difference in each.
 
Ryan,
It's because they have the pony. Seriously.
Except for FN. They have no pony. They suck.

Until we start talking lithium, titanium and beryllium, they aren't better.

Unless you count a historic track record of making great firearms!

A two blocks of aluminum the same exact shape will be the same, except for the roll mark!:thumbup:

The betterness does come from the QA or QC or PDQ, pqp? Whichever!;)
 
The importance to me, in distinguishing QA vs. QC vs. warranty vs. customer service, in the context of mil-spec products is the overwhelming blind trust some folks put into the words “mil-spec”.

Many contracts have customer requirements which dictate 100% inspection, like MPI testing of mil-spec bolts. That is a quality program mechanism which helps ensure bolts don’t leave with microfractures. It prevents products leaving the station with Defects which aren’t defective - yet. So that’s a quality assurance mechanism which establishes the quality of the product leaving the plant.

Now say Ruger uses the same Base material, same equipment, same process control mechanisms, but only does straw sampling of a batch instead of 100% inspection. Do we really think they produce a weaker bolt, or produce more bolts in the market with higher “infant mortality?” Or do we realize they just don’t have an expensive stamp of certification which promises they tested EVERY bolt, instead of a promising they tested a statistically sufficient volume of bolts to ensure the bolts in the batch are not defective.

If you bake a batch of cookies - the old school baker’s dozen - and test ONE cookie for taste and it tastes good, do you need to taste all of them to know they taste good? Not all processes require 100% inspection.

Equally, I have NEVER seen, despite asking for it many times in threads like this, the quality control or quality assurance tests which tell me a trigger/hammer pin in a Colt, or other mil-spec AR has any enhanced quality of materials or construction, nor any enhanced quality control or quality assurance. I have never seen a protocol, despite asking for it, the quality inspection or production control protocol for mil-spec hammer springs which suggests a non-mil-spec hammer spring set would be inferior. I’ve never been provided any evidence a geiselle hi speed national match FAILED a mil-spec FCG test (although I do recall years back seeing the protocol for mil-spec trigger testing - a sample process, naturally).

Sure, MPI’s and shot peening on bolts, 9130, I’m 100% on board. Chrome lining chambers in select fire weapons - you have my vote. Buying a 6920 just because Colt stamps it as mil-spec, and Ruger doesn’t their AR-556? Or not buying a Brownells branded BCG because it’s a semiauto profile and not mil-spec? Nah, I’ll take a hard pass on the blanket mil-spec or nothing mantra...
 
I think a fair amount of the process of getting products to market relatively defect-free has been well explained. What has not been determined is whether any government contractors deploy the same amount of care when dealing with non-contract products. By the definition of “milspec” as outlined the obvious answer would be no.

Same workers, same factory, same assembly line does not equal same materials, specs, testing, inspections, and won’t come with a final “ok” from the government.

So is a Colt or FN better than a PSA? Time and testing might determine that on a small sample size basis for any given point in time, but the reason Colt and FN are well thought of is a track record of producing reliable products using good materials and are both likely to continue to do so.

PSA while not brand new has earned a good reputation for selling reliable products at a good price. If they meet your expectations for function and form (rail you like, barrel twist you prefer) then I say shoot it till it breaks and use the warranty.
 
Buying a 6920 just because Colt stamps it as mil-spec............

No, colt does not roll mark a 6920 or any other AR-15 as mil-spec. Neither does FN. I don't even own an AR-15 and know that much. Look at any 6920 and see if you can find "Property of US Government" on it anywhere. That's in the military specification believe it or not. If it ain't there it's not mil-spec.

Flunked mil-spec 101. I think that falls under QC.
 
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