What should LEOs do in a case like this?
- Thread starter Desertdog
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Okay, I don't get it. Why did the wife finally opt to stop when she and her husband arrived on hospital property, but not stop in front of the Emergency entrance?
Aren't you special? You are correct that you can't help anyone if you don't make it there, but in this case, the only thing keeping the wife from making to where her husband could get needed help was that highly trained professional cop, not some sort of collision. Apparently from the story, the cop wasn't about to let the wife get help for her husband. It took the actions of another cop who followed the chase to go inside and get medical help.
While it is cool that you went to driving school, I bet the cop in the story did not. Most don't. Given the wealth of Louisiana, I am betting most LEOs in the state don't get much more than some rudimentary closed course parking lot training.
Aren't you special? You are correct that you can't help anyone if you don't make it there, but in this case, the only thing keeping the wife from making to where her husband could get needed help was that highly trained professional cop, not some sort of collision. Apparently from the story, the cop wasn't about to let the wife get help for her husband. It took the actions of another cop who followed the chase to go inside and get medical help.
While it is cool that you went to driving school, I bet the cop in the story did not. Most don't. Given the wealth of Louisiana, I am betting most LEOs in the state don't get much more than some rudimentary closed course parking lot training.
First, we're all taking this newspaper story as gospel. I learned a long time ago that any story consist of: What you say happened. What I say happened. What really happened. And what sells newspapers.
Several problems with driving a family member during an emergency. You're emotionally involved. Even if you are the best driver in the world, you have to remember that the worst driver in the world is just around the corner. No one else knows (or cares) that your loved one needs medical attention. If you cut someone off, they might cut back (literally). And I stopped one guy who was driving his small son to the hospital because he got hurt at a family picinic. So son was bleeding badly, but the stupid part is that the father was drunk off his backside.
Several problems with 911 and EMS. How far away are they, compared with how far away are you to a hospital? What is the normal response time? Is it a normal response day/night?
Several problems with the police in incidents like this. Cops may have extra drivers training, but some are not that good at driving. (Traffic accidents have surpassed gunshoots as the #1 on-duty cop killer). Just because we're cops, doesn't mean we all have common sense. Just like not everyone on this forum has common sense. I would have called for medical personnel to start treatment while I talked to the driver. Also, what happens to the cop that stops someone and then says "Okay, you go ahead and drive to the hospital." If they drive off alone and get into an accident...cops liable. If the cop 'escorts' the vehicle to the hospital and they get into an accident....cops liable. Hard to win.
Several problems with driving a family member during an emergency. You're emotionally involved. Even if you are the best driver in the world, you have to remember that the worst driver in the world is just around the corner. No one else knows (or cares) that your loved one needs medical attention. If you cut someone off, they might cut back (literally). And I stopped one guy who was driving his small son to the hospital because he got hurt at a family picinic. So son was bleeding badly, but the stupid part is that the father was drunk off his backside.
Several problems with 911 and EMS. How far away are they, compared with how far away are you to a hospital? What is the normal response time? Is it a normal response day/night?
Several problems with the police in incidents like this. Cops may have extra drivers training, but some are not that good at driving. (Traffic accidents have surpassed gunshoots as the #1 on-duty cop killer). Just because we're cops, doesn't mean we all have common sense. Just like not everyone on this forum has common sense. I would have called for medical personnel to start treatment while I talked to the driver. Also, what happens to the cop that stops someone and then says "Okay, you go ahead and drive to the hospital." If they drive off alone and get into an accident...cops liable. If the cop 'escorts' the vehicle to the hospital and they get into an accident....cops liable. Hard to win.
The Drew
Member
"Only those with special training have the ability to drive over the speed limit..."
There is no better training than experience... but, those with the god complex think that "civillians" aren't capable of anything... Including driving loved ones to the hospital and carry a gun in self defense...
Being in law enforcement doesn't make you special... It just gives you authority... I know plenty of cops that are much worse shots than me and are much worse drivers....
There is no better training than experience... but, those with the god complex think that "civillians" aren't capable of anything... Including driving loved ones to the hospital and carry a gun in self defense...
Being in law enforcement doesn't make you special... It just gives you authority... I know plenty of cops that are much worse shots than me and are much worse drivers....
CAS700850
Member
When my wife was pregnant with our first child, she had problems. Called me from work one day with all of the symptoms of toxemia. I drove to get her while she called the doc. Doc said get here (hospital) now. So I did. 18 minutes later, we pulled into the E.R. Did I mention it was 23 miles from her office to the E.R.? Sometimes, I miss that old Chevy Beretta.
As I told the Trooper who followe dme into the E.R., write me whatever you want after we get her into the doc. He didn't write me for anything, and we're actually friends now.
As I told the Trooper who followe dme into the E.R., write me whatever you want after we get her into the doc. He didn't write me for anything, and we're actually friends now.
IlikeSA, you seem a bit pompous like a lot of cops. Also sounds like you figured he handled it properly "according to the book". I suppose that the stupid woman didn't know that it was more important to get him there dead than to take a bit of a risk to try to get him there alive. Gosh, he coulda been killed in a traffic accident. I agree with other posters that would break a traffic law when in concern for the life of a loved one. I would kill someone that was endangering the life of that loved one. I have that right. In most states rights are similar to Florida. Here you can shoot when you BELIEVE that your life or someone else's is threatened, or you believe you or someone else is in danger of great bodily harm. Personally, I think that the officer's action if correctly described as delaying help, placed someone under threat of death or great bodily harm. I would not want to be placed in that situation with a member of my family, since I would have to make a choice. Traffic infractions do not come close to being a reason to delay someone seeking medical help for a life threatening problem.
CAPTAIN MIKE
Member
Police Escort versus Traffic Stop
What if she had pulled over and told the officer "Glad you're here officer - My Husband is having a Heart Attack. Please get in front of me Code Three and give me a police escort to the Emergency Room".
What if she had pulled over and told the officer "Glad you're here officer - My Husband is having a Heart Attack. Please get in front of me Code Three and give me a police escort to the Emergency Room".
Steve in PA
Member
"What if she had pulled over and told the officer "Glad you're here officer - My Husband is having a Heart Attack. Please get in front of me Code Three and give me a police escort to the Emergency Room"."
As I'm sure with most depts (mine included) this is expressly forbidden by policy.
As I'm sure with most depts (mine included) this is expressly forbidden by policy.
mmike87
Member
He should have let them go into the hospital. Geeze - it's just a ticket, and it's not like he doesn't know who she is and couldn't give her the ticket later.
If this is true then the trooper is an ass.
If this is true then the trooper is an ass.
mmike87
Member
Great. Under your logic, only police should have guns, too.
If someone in my passenger seat is DYING for whatever reason I am not stopping - you'll have to shoot me. I am sure that would make the department proud.
Zundfolge
Member
Actually it does. Its called an affirmative defense.
Same thing as illegally CCWing ... if you end up using your gun in legitimate self defense you won't be charged with the illegal CCW.
I wonder if the trooper's action was because she had a coffee can in the car. If so, I'd throw her in Guantamino.
Here's a story for you people that believe in waiting for EMT's rather than driving your loved ones to the hospital. My grandmother was found on the floor after having fallen. Neighbors called EMT, they came looked at her (when I say look, they looked at her and never physically checked pulse or anything). Declared her dead and left. An hour later the police came and noticed she was still moving and was moaning. Called the EMT back and they took her to the hospital where she died a few hours later.
Apparently this is not an isolated case and happens often.
Still trust the EMT's? I sure as hell don't.
Here's a story for you people that believe in waiting for EMT's rather than driving your loved ones to the hospital. My grandmother was found on the floor after having fallen. Neighbors called EMT, they came looked at her (when I say look, they looked at her and never physically checked pulse or anything). Declared her dead and left. An hour later the police came and noticed she was still moving and was moaning. Called the EMT back and they took her to the hospital where she died a few hours later.
Apparently this is not an isolated case and happens often.
Still trust the EMT's? I sure as hell don't.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
What state are you in? EMT's cannot declare anyone dead in Georgia or South Carolina. Only a MD, a coroner, or an assistant coroner can do this. There is a paramedic that can declare death in my home county but he wears another hat as an assisitant coroner.
I'm an emergency RN. I see people die fairly often. I call the doc in and tell him to start earning the big bucks. Usually while running a code until told to stop by the MD.
Otherguy Overby
member
Affirmative attitude
Cops and guns, cops and cars.
At least with guns cops have had a modicum of training.
A cop graduate of a "police" academy driving course might barely qualifiy in the last row of a local Saturday night race. IOW, if a cop was actually faced with driving into a turn at track speed, the EPA Feds would have to show up afterward in space suits to collect and dispose of said cop's underwear.
I've taught driving courses at the same facilites that police use. Their visual aids (from squad cars) consist of what not to do scenarios. They've no video of what to do. IOW, none of these people have actually been out on the track and humbled by real experience. The PIT maneuver is taught which is pretty much an example of all the wrong things to do in racing. To do a PIT, you need to focus attention on the rear quarter of the car in front. This leaves one with less attention to spend on the real world...
The real strategy is to race one's own race and if you get your car's nose underneath the pursued car and steer into it, just a nudge is all it takes. Trust me, at track speed it isn't quite as simple as cops perceive, or teach each other.
Cops and guns, cops and cars.
At least with guns cops have had a modicum of training.
A cop graduate of a "police" academy driving course might barely qualifiy in the last row of a local Saturday night race. IOW, if a cop was actually faced with driving into a turn at track speed, the EPA Feds would have to show up afterward in space suits to collect and dispose of said cop's underwear.
I've taught driving courses at the same facilites that police use. Their visual aids (from squad cars) consist of what not to do scenarios. They've no video of what to do. IOW, none of these people have actually been out on the track and humbled by real experience. The PIT maneuver is taught which is pretty much an example of all the wrong things to do in racing. To do a PIT, you need to focus attention on the rear quarter of the car in front. This leaves one with less attention to spend on the real world...
The real strategy is to race one's own race and if you get your car's nose underneath the pursued car and steer into it, just a nudge is all it takes. Trust me, at track speed it isn't quite as simple as cops perceive, or teach each other.
Greg L
Member
Well, it is near the end of the month. He might have had a whole bunch that he needed to write to make his quota.....
In that situation, unless you force me off the road, we will be talking at the doors to the hospital after medical attention has started. From my house to the nearest hospital is probably 60% 4 lane divided highway. At that time of day I could easily see myself going 90+mph for that portion of the journey.
If the story is accurate he needs to be fired.
Jeff Timm
Member
The fact remains, turning on the four way flashers does NOT make a car an Emergency Vehicle.
Delaying treatment may constitute a felony on the part of the LEO, or at least leave him and his Department on the receiving end of a large financial penalty.
I'd advise driving to the hospital at the speed limit while a 3rd party, if available, screams for help with a cell phone.
Geoff
Who knows circumstances are NEVER ideal.
Delaying treatment may constitute a felony on the part of the LEO, or at least leave him and his Department on the receiving end of a large financial penalty.
I'd advise driving to the hospital at the speed limit while a 3rd party, if available, screams for help with a cell phone.
Geoff
Who knows circumstances are NEVER ideal.
My intention was not to sound arrogant or cocky. I am in full favor of Vermont style carry, and I dont do the silly CCW w/o license charge...ever. That's my discretion.
As to the driving, my intent was not to cut anyone down with their driving; I'm just stating the facts. My job is to protect and serve, not an individual, but society as a whole (I'm sure you've read that SC decision, as most of us here are pretty similar when it comes to our independence). When your actions threaten society as a whole (such as "reckless driving"), the citizens of the city I work for pay me to stop that person from their dangerous behavior to safeguard the lives of others on a whole.
I think that ya'll should place yourselves in the LEOs shoes for a moment. A person with emergency flashers on comes speeding by...let's say I let them go...and at the next intersection they hit a car with two couples on a double date, killing 2 and severely injuring the other 2. My car has GPS and a camera, so everyone knows I am in the area. They pull my tape, and ask, "Why didn't you stop that car?" I have sworn to protect people and uphold the law, and while I have discretion as to carrying out that charge to me, I am also held liable to anything I do or fail to do.
Yes, everyone seems to be against the LEO in this case, and it's a tough call. Policy at my department states that I will render emergency aid to the best of my ability and get an ambulance. As to the question of the "Code 3 escort", that's a bad idea. It sounds good on paper, but most people notice the blue lights (or red lights) and siren, but fail to see the next vehicle entering the intersection.
As to the driving, my intent was not to cut anyone down with their driving; I'm just stating the facts. My job is to protect and serve, not an individual, but society as a whole (I'm sure you've read that SC decision, as most of us here are pretty similar when it comes to our independence). When your actions threaten society as a whole (such as "reckless driving"), the citizens of the city I work for pay me to stop that person from their dangerous behavior to safeguard the lives of others on a whole.
I think that ya'll should place yourselves in the LEOs shoes for a moment. A person with emergency flashers on comes speeding by...let's say I let them go...and at the next intersection they hit a car with two couples on a double date, killing 2 and severely injuring the other 2. My car has GPS and a camera, so everyone knows I am in the area. They pull my tape, and ask, "Why didn't you stop that car?" I have sworn to protect people and uphold the law, and while I have discretion as to carrying out that charge to me, I am also held liable to anything I do or fail to do.
Yes, everyone seems to be against the LEO in this case, and it's a tough call. Policy at my department states that I will render emergency aid to the best of my ability and get an ambulance. As to the question of the "Code 3 escort", that's a bad idea. It sounds good on paper, but most people notice the blue lights (or red lights) and siren, but fail to see the next vehicle entering the intersection.
I've put myself in that state trooper's position and I still say he's wrong.
He's a fool and hopefully he'll be an unemployed fool soon.
The public doesn't need stupid officers like that. The LE/Joe public relations right now are at a pretty low. Don't need to hear stories like this happening. How do you think it makes the general public feel seeing how a ticket is more important than someone's life.
Whether or not it is a true perception, it is one that will linger in Joe Public's mind.
Re-read the article, the trooper stopped the woman after she had pulled into the emergency parking lot and prevented her from going to get help. Thank God for the DeRidder Police Officer.
Don't you think if you were in that situation you would allow the woman to call for attendants first THEN maybe give her a ticket.
Poor judgement if you ask me. And I sure as heck don't want an person like that enforcing the laws.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
As a RN, in either GA or SC, I can use a stethoscope and obtain neither heartbeat nor breath sounds. use a cuff and get a blood pressure of 0/0, run an EKG and get nothing but a flat line. And I am still required-BY LAW- to continue resuscitation interventions unless there is a valid Do Not Resuscitate order of which I am aware or a physician or a coroner pronounces death. The EMT's are operating under the same laws in GA and SC that I am.
I don't know California law or EMT regulations but I seriously doubt if they are different. The EMT's could have checked with every technology known to medical science and still could not have ceased to give care. Contact the coroner, yes, but you conduct a code until the coroner pronounces death. There are exceptions to this: patient has no head, patient is totally carbonized, half of torso has not yet been brought to the gurney, etc.
is that why police officers feel they can drive 30 miles over the speed-limit when they are not responding to emergencies?
The Samurai had something (cant remember the Japanese phrase) called 'The right to execute and be excused' which basically meant that if they encountered someone doing something horrendously stupid (like this cop did) they could behead that person on the spot and be excused when they explained what that person did that was so dumb/terrible.
I only mention it because I can't imagine something like this happening in ancient Japan.
What are the relevent laws in the US?
I may be wrong, but I think that in the UK "speeding" is legal if you are taking someone to hospital / responding to an emergency (and illegal if you are not, even if you are a cop/ambulance driver, although they can generally get away with it). An emergency wouldn't excuse dangerous or reckless driving, however (i.e. endangering the public).
oldfart
Member
Back in '68 a similar thing happened to me. My wife was bleeding out from a miscarraige and being transported in an ambulance. I was following behind with my flashers on when a CHP car turned on his lights. I kept going, since I then had flashing lights in front and behind me too. We rolled up to the hospital and I bailed out to go into the ER when the CHP officer told me to stop. I took my driver's license out and handed it to him and headed on inside. He insisted that I stop so I just turned and told him what was happening and that if he really wanted me to stop he'd have to shoot me. He followed me inside and after speaking to the Doctor, gave me my license with a simple "good luck." The wife pulled through but it took 8 units of blood before she could be stabilized.
I'm not a great fan of police departments but there are a few really good men working for them.
I'm not a great fan of police departments but there are a few really good men working for them.
JohnBT
Member
""Why didn't you stop that car?""
"I couldn't catch it" would be a good answer. So would "It wasn't safe for me to drive that fast through town so I radioed ahead."
Okay, let's say you did catch up to it and the driver kept on driving to the hospital. What were you going to do, run it off the road? Shoot the tires out?
The enforcement of the law requires judgment, good judgment.
John
P.S. - "I'd advise driving to the hospital at the speed limit"
Yeah, right, like I'm going to slow down from my usual 5-over because it's an emergency.
"I couldn't catch it" would be a good answer. So would "It wasn't safe for me to drive that fast through town so I radioed ahead."
Okay, let's say you did catch up to it and the driver kept on driving to the hospital. What were you going to do, run it off the road? Shoot the tires out?
The enforcement of the law requires judgment, good judgment.
John
P.S. - "I'd advise driving to the hospital at the speed limit"
Yeah, right, like I'm going to slow down from my usual 5-over because it's an emergency.
Shouldn't the woman share any blame for stopping for the officer?
I know if I was speeding someone to the hospital in my car in a life-and-death situation, I wouldn't stop for anything or anyone short of an M1 Abrahms, and even then that M1 would have to forcibly stop me!
I know if I was speeding someone to the hospital in my car in a life-and-death situation, I wouldn't stop for anything or anyone short of an M1 Abrahms, and even then that M1 would have to forcibly stop me!
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