What weapon in searching the caves?

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Fix, have you been paying attention in the last year or so?

Or any that some may have dropped.
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Let's hope they dropped some.

I wish CQB could be that simple. You could, in theory, break out your reloading equipment in the cave too I suppose.
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Didn't it make you wonder why Knight's Armament got the contract to build a batch of SR-47's? I'll give you a hint, simply use a search engine, and the keywords "Afghanistan", "small arms", "ammunition cache", and "destroyed by U.S. forces". I'll bet you'll even see some pics of GI's maneuvering around stacks of 7.62x39 ammo tins. All that ammo, free for the taking, in those durable AK-47 magazines, no less. Made the folks in the Pentagon sit up and take notice... :scrutiny:

The Krinkov as a cave-sweeper ain't a bad idea at all, George.
 
Approaching cave...JDAM (GPS guided 2000lb bomb)

For clearing cave...SMAW, Frag, M-4A1

For living in cleared cave...12 Gauge Pump (for the 6" camel spider that just jumped over your ruck and is now crouched over your head on the cave roof...in the dark)
 
All that ammo, free for the taking, in those durable AK-47 magazines, no less.
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I understand the concept, but just question the utility of it while actually engaged in a gunfight. No doubt it's a good idea overall for those who spend considerable amounts of time detached from the supply chain. So I guess my position is that it is a good idea while moving to the objective, but pretty much irrelevant once there.
 
I understand the concept, but just question the utility of it while actually engaged in a gunfight. No doubt it's a good idea overall for those who spend considerable amounts of time detached from the supply chain. So I guess my position is that it is a good idea while moving to the objective, but pretty much irrelevant once there.
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Don't be silly. They're not trying to take ammunition from Achmed's corpse while exchanging fire with Abdul and Ibrahim; they're picking up all the dead bad guys' ammo after they've cleared the cave because there's another thirty guys in the next cave and they can't exactly carry fifty magazines apiece.
 
Yeah that 7.62 by 39 Knight rifle or a Krinkov would be just fine for spelunking... one GI described the "mountains" of AK mags they'd find.. it was quicker to resupply from enemy munitions dumps than to send in another air drop of US ammo and magazines. Besides, our allies use the AK as well.

It's getting shot at from half a mile off with a heavy MG that makes me thing the return of the 308 isn't such a bad idea. Or that whole 'dedicated marksman' thing.

Maybe what you really need is a rifle with an interchangeable long and short barrel?

And a handgun of some sort.. just in case.
 
What's the scoop on that M203-esque shotgun? It's obviously a box-fed semiauto. What action is it based on, or is it brand new?
 
how come nobody has said anything about the shrike? it seems to me that it would be nice for clearing caves. with all that muzzle flash you might not even need any other light source. if the shrike was in production it might be a good option.
 
You talking about that belt-fed upper for the AR? I think the army might just be inclined to give you a M249....

BTW zach, you need a ride to the PA THR meet later this month? :D
 
Why aren't we using what worked so well on the islands in WWII?

Flamethrowers.

Is there some sort of fighting protocol that no longer allows us to engage our enemies with the most effective tools available?
 
Flamethrowers!

I second the Flamethrowers. That and frag grenades. Heck, you could have some fun with a flare and a barrel of diesel.
 
yep, the shrike is the belt fed upper for the AR. I say the shrike because its much lighter than the m249. I've heard its like holding an AR with 200 extra rounds of ammo.

mark are you goin to the meeting? I'll go with if it doesn't conflict with schedule.
 
Is there some sort of fighting protocol that no longer allows us to engage our enemies with the most effective tools available?
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Interestingly enough, under Clinton's watch, the Army published an updated Flame Weapons doctrinal manual which specifically reaffirms US policy and intent to use flame weapons during war (including napalm, flame throwers, incendiary launchers, etc.). The problem isn't that we won't use them. The problem is that we don't currently own any traditional flamethrowers and have destroyed most of our rusting/weeping stocks of napalm.

The old M202 Flash (a 4-barreled LAW-like WP rocket launcher) was a marginal solution during the 70's & 80's but suffered from minor flaws like the live warhead separating from the rocket booster about 2 meters in front of the muzzle... It had the range but needed some tweaks. Extremely Much Fun to shoot BTW.

Flamethrowers have always offended the sensibilities of some military leaders in much the same way as snipers. MTOE Snipers and their training programs were traditionally mothballed after every war until the advent of the standing all-volunteer force during the 70's.

Flamethrowers are bulky, heavy, offer limited range, and provide limited repeat fire. They are difficult to resupply. The operator must get very close (inside of 50 meters) to the enemy. The operator becomes a magnet for every enemy weapon on the field of battle while simultaneously requiring his buddies to provide good close-in rifle covering fire. This makes the flame gunner a lonely man (whom no one wants to be near) due to: 1) all the desperate enemy fire directed his way 2) the anticipated fireball when he and his weapon are finally hit.

Lastly, no one found with or near a flame thrower is likely to survive capture...People are rather opinionated about being burned alive.

For all that, the concept of flamethrowers and air-delivered napalm is being seriously re-looked after Afghanistan, where it was repeatedly called for in after-action-reports. We just don't have a capable modern version ready for deployment (yet).

We need to reinvent the "Alligator" of WWII Battle for Okinawa fame. Imagine an M1 Abrams towing an armored fuel trailer. Drive close to cave (with infantry support), shrug off RPGs and bullets, bring everyone to Jesus from 150 meters away...
 
What would I take? I would take an AC-130 Spectre."

OK, you fly it, and winstonsmith and I will run the guns!

Might get a little hairy flying in those caves, though
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Cool! Uh, I hope it flies like a 182...



Hrm, I wonder just how napalm in the 40mm or 105mm cannons in the Spectre would work? That'd be some nice controled aimed flamethrowing action from very long range away.



Electronic Muffs might be a neat gadget to try in the caves. Be ready to rip them off when (not if :p) they die in battle. But could give you an edge untill then.

They muffle rifle blasts like earplugs (30db down) but only for the few miliseconds when the rifle is actually blasting. The rest of the time you can turn them up for an 8db ambient GAIN to hear Habieb Wannakillya long before he hears you!


PS: out of a 20" bbl .308 battle rifle, just who exactly do you think you're going to shoot at 1200yds?
 
would it be necessary to get within 50 meters?

I'm not familiar with the geology of the Afghani caves but wouldn't it just be necessary to consume all the oxygen within them?

If the caves dead end and have no other openings, it would be a simple matter of starting a LARGE fire within the mouth of the cave (and hopefully out of the range of the enemy located deeply within) and let it consume all the oxygen inside the cave. Of course, if the caves have additional exits or vents, this probably wont work, but it does open the possibility of pumping an oxygen scavenging gas (like CO) into the cave for a few hours. The equipment to do this could actually be smaller than what is necessary to make big, long burning fires.
 
Tactical nukes. Can't hurt the landscape and might improve the culture.

Good luck to your son. We're all proud that he is serving for us.
 
For searching/clearing caves in Afghanistan? I think I would like:

1. Winchester Mod. 12 trench/riot shotgun with a mix of slugs and buckshot.

2. A couple of 1911s.

3. A good mix of frags, CS, smoke and flashbangs. It might also be nice to have one of the "vomit" gas grenades if you can find them.

4. The brightest "stun 'em" light I could find.

5. A Camelbak full of Jack Daniels.

6. The loudest audio device I could find to loop a ultra high volume recording of Dianne Feinstein's senate floor statements on the Gun Manufacturer's Lawsuit bill (this might not be permissible under the Geneva Convention).

Godspeed and a safe return to your son!
 
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Burn 'em out...

And then you wouldn't find documents or hard intel or guys to question about the whereabout of the important bad guys.

They have made bombs that suck all the O2 out of a hole, and it works to varying degrees.

It's simply impractical to airdrop a bulldozer over every hole.
 
During WWII my fathers unit used incenerary rds (white phosperous) sp. delievered by 105 hwtzrs. to the mouth of caves to clear them. He stated that when he intered the caves the Japs were setting along the side of the cave walls with all their equipment at the ready but were dead from suffication. For what its worth
Vern
 
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