Halo
Member
I don't know, someone unfamiliar with guns might have thought "this is a perfect reason for a woman to buy a gun!" People volunteer unnecessary information and stupid cover stories all the time, you can see it on any episode of "Cops".
Gun Store Incident - Some people are just WEIRD!
- Thread starter ZeSpectre
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highorder
Member
This is the theory I posed; not that the ATF was doing a "sting."
ErikS
Member
I dont know if I fit that description, I probably dont, but I'd like to point out that this sale wasn't stopped by any gun control laws. This was stopped by the store simply refusing to sell it on their own.
I seriously doubt that they would have sold the gun to her, even if buying guns was as legal as buying candy.
American_Pit_Bull
Member
I am very familiar with guns and I thought that it sounded like a perfectly good reason!
What if a woman came in and stated that she wanted a gun because her ex used to put her in the hospital once a month and now he is stalking her and she may have to defend herself?
Do you think that he still should have refused to sell?
Was is all about semantics? or could you tell something was off?
Wow talk about wackjobs!! Good thing the police were called though. One time I was in a local gun store when this guy came in and wanted to buy his son who looked no older than 5 years old a high powered rifle, not exactly a genius idea to start off a kid with something like that in my opinion, the guy didn't take too long in randomly selecting the cheapest one available either while yanking the kid around and basically growling to the kid to shut up every time he uttered a noise (I think you can get an idea of the kind of person this guy was) anywho when the guy found the rifle and went to fill out the paperwork and everything he didn't clear on the background check, I remember the guy asking why and the employee saying 'they don't tell us sir,' only for the guy to say "Must be all the restraining orders" and walk out the door. So yeah, good thing you guys called the police; wackjobs and guns obviously don't mix.
Sun195
Member
I love this part...
I didn't believe you, but sure enough, it did get weirder!
I've had a spate of encounters with gun store crazies lately. Last week, I ran into a guy who was rambling on-and-on-and-on about how he had a felony, but the courts said he could keep or trade guns, but not buy them (then, what are you doing at a gun store... where you BUY guns?) That felony was for stealing a wood stove - he and a buddy brought a gun to shoot the owner of the stove, but the owner wasn't there, and while they were stealing the stove, the gun went off, striking his friend in the leg...blah, blah, blah. This guy was clearly off his rocker. I asked the owner if NICS came back with an approval (not likely), would they sell him a gun? The owner said no-way.
I've also witnessed two attempted straw buyer purchases. In both cases, the stores turned them down.
I didn't believe you, but sure enough, it did get weirder!
I've had a spate of encounters with gun store crazies lately. Last week, I ran into a guy who was rambling on-and-on-and-on about how he had a felony, but the courts said he could keep or trade guns, but not buy them (then, what are you doing at a gun store... where you BUY guns?) That felony was for stealing a wood stove - he and a buddy brought a gun to shoot the owner of the stove, but the owner wasn't there, and while they were stealing the stove, the gun went off, striking his friend in the leg...blah, blah, blah. This guy was clearly off his rocker. I asked the owner if NICS came back with an approval (not likely), would they sell him a gun? The owner said no-way.
I've also witnessed two attempted straw buyer purchases. In both cases, the stores turned them down.
FieroCDSP
Member
Being a good sales-person is not just about being good at selling something, but about being able to read the customer. This comes through experience.
In the OP, we have a woman that could possibly be a victim of domestic abuse, still unsure of whether she can take a final step of defending herself, but she blew it with stating her (feigned or otherwise) intent to kill or otherwise assault him. To sell to her would certainly be in the way of "sell to an individual indicating intent to do harm."
In your example, a woman who could be the victim of domestic abuse, who is already divorced/separated is the subject of a continued crime, i.e. stalking. She wants the gun to defend herself.
The difference between the two is the intent. The first implies action, the second, reaction. As we all know, intent is a good portion of what will keep you as an actor either in or out of jail.
It's nearly impossible as a seller to justify selling to someone who is indicating they intend to act in an agressive manner. It goes over as well as "well, he looked okay to me." It is defendable, however, to be able to say "they indicated they wanted it to 'defend' their self against an abusive Ex. Maybe it is only context, but it makes all the difference in a court of law.
American_Pit_Bull
Member
But she didn't say that she was going to go home and shoot him because he got physical with her a few days prior... She said that he is getting rough and that she may have to shoot him (i.e. defend herself).
That is why I asked if it was all about semantics. If she would have stated her intent more eloquently, many of the posters would have posted opposite reactions to the experience of the OP.
ZeSpectre
Member
We could all tell that something was off. The woman was very twitchy during the whole conversation (mousy and passive, then aggressive, swinging back and forth) but I will admit that looking back with 20/20 hindsight I can see your point about the question asked.
HOWEVER, since I was there I stick by the assertion that she'd been pushed too far and was actively planning on shooting the guy (not "I might have to defend myself" but more like "when he gets home...boom") but that was the kind of gut feeling you only get by being on the scene when it happens.
Of course I have no way of knowing what happened in the past nor what steps the woman had already taken to protect herself (though leaving the guy wasn't one of them obviously) but it did sound like she jumped to "shoot the guy" as her first solution.
OTOH, I have no -confirmation- that she was actually on meds or crazy, that's just what I heard the guy say and he certainly could have been telling lies about the whole thing.
Regardless, I'm glad the store DIDN'T get sucked into that deal and I'm glad the cops DID get involved!
bogie
Member
What would you do if someone walks in, looks to buy a small gun, and says something like "this'll scare 'em."
I suspect that a LOT of men have died (and not of fright) due to little .22 or.25 autos in the hands of women who knew squat about what they were doing...
I suspect that a LOT of men have died (and not of fright) due to little .22 or.25 autos in the hands of women who knew squat about what they were doing...
Just when I thought ZeSpectre's experience holds the "title" for lunacy, I hear this one!
At least with ZeSpectre's experience we are dealing with mental disease but this "attractive woman" experience now holds the title for the dumbest woman story IMHO. I mean, come on, how could ANYONE be that stupid?
FieroCDSP
Member
I'm looking at the whole tone as related in the story. I know I wasn't there, but if you'll hear me out, I'll explain my reasoning.
If someone is afraid like this- has (presumably) been battered, has started thinking towards defending theirself with lethal force, and enters a gun store appearing as our OP described, they are waaay the hell out of their comfort zone. A person like that is not entire in control of their thoughts in that the line between reason and emotion has been crossed. Act of passion/heat of the moment kind of stuff. A gun sale to someone who is visibly distressed is not good practice, and I personally would feel right about it.
Also, when someone is in such a state, the first thing out of their mouth is often the closest to the truth. This is why after a defensive shooting you keep your mouth shut after asking for a lawyer. Diarhea of the mouth happens in a stressed state. In this case, the first statement is:
Whether the story ends up being missed meds, a straw purchase, or a legitimate defensive purpose, this is not a statement made by someone who has throught out what they're going to say and is in control at the moment.
Having ID'd the first red-flag, the salesman requested clarification, to which a story was given which, while fitting the legitimate reason for a purchase, was not delivered in a manner in which was convincing of simply being misspoken.
Upon denial of sale, the salesman offered to have the police intervene, and while few victims are enthusiastic at the idea for fear of retribution, the response was not what could be considered typical.
Again, being a good salesperson is being able to read the customer, and in this case, the guy read the signs and acted appropriately. I personally would not refuse a sale to a woman who appeared in control, if a bit timid or unsure. Abuse victims come in all shapes and styles, but I wouldn't sell to anyone who seemed controlled by their emotions at the time. If I got a read off someone like this story seems to have had, I wouldn't have acted any differently than the salesperson.
Norinco982lover
Member
hahahahah rofl wuchak.
bogie
Member
About 10 years ago, my favorite gun store had a customer come in, and "try on" a Mossberg Cruiser, to see if he could put the barrel to his head, and reach the trigger. Upon seeing that, he was questioned further, and they denied the sale. IIRC, this was before NICS.
After he left, they called the police, and then started calling around to other gun stores, telling them to look out for the fellow, and not sell to him.
One store owner told them "thanks - I'll make sure to get cash instead of a check." - sigh...
The fellow ended up going off a bridge.
After he left, they called the police, and then started calling around to other gun stores, telling them to look out for the fellow, and not sell to him.
One store owner told them "thanks - I'll make sure to get cash instead of a check." - sigh...
The fellow ended up going off a bridge.
I also think this was an attempted straw purchase. She probably thought the domestic violence story would work because that is a stereotypical reason why woman buy guns. But she went too far with her story. If she really was buying it to shoot her husband she never would have told him she was turned down. If their relationship was that troubled he surely would be suspicious if she was buying a gun.
Tom Servo
Member
Actually, yes. An inexperienced, untrained person under considerable emotional duress could represent significant liability for the shop that sells her one. It sounds cold, but it's true.
I know restraining orders and such aren't much in the way of protection, but if someone's on the verge of hysteria and they're not in their right mind, do you really want to find out you sold a gun, and it ended up in tragedy?
Then again, are you sure she's telling the truth? What if she's just mad that he's behind on child support, and she wants to "teach him a lesson?" People lie all the time.
I've been told, "I just need a gun that'll $#&* someone up good," and refused the sale. About a month ago, a really nervous guy was filling out the 4473, and after a minute's hesitation asked me to define "domestic violence." I refused the sale.
I once had an elderly man tell me he needed a gun for self defense. So far, so good. However, as we talked a bit more, he informed me that there were a lot of "minority types" moving into his neighborhood, and that "someone's gonna do something about that." Sorry, but I'm not giving someone the means to go vigilante.
It may sound callous, but you have to imagine justifying your decision to sell someone a gun in court.
That's another shaky one. Sometimes, folks will have their friend "advise" them on their choices. You have to learn to distinguish that from a straw purchase.
(Usually, this entails the "expert" friend recommending something woefully inappropriate..."my 95lb girlfriend who's never shot needs an airweight .357 J-Frame")
There's a difference between the boyfriend/spouse advising, and a straw purchase. If the female is handling the gun and asking questions, it's likely a bonafide transaction. If she's shown no interest and just steps in to do the paperwork, it's a different story.
My recent favorite: a guy walks in, spends twenty minutes playing with a Bushmaster AR-15 pistol, then leaves. Two minutes later, a woman comes in asking for the "Bush" rifle. She points out the same gun.
I ask her if it's for target, hunting or self-defense, and she replies, "uh, burglars?" I ask her if she knows what caliber it is, and she says, "twenty...three?" I explain just what happens when you buy a gun for someone who's not qualified, and she goes, "seriously? Man, he ain't all that!" and marches out.
Wish I could've seen that conversation.
Halo
Member
And indeed it is, but still you can't blame the store owner for having some alarm bells go off when a customer basically says she wants to buy a gun so she can go use it on her husband. Shooting him in defense of an attack is one thing, but going home and unloading on him because of a history of abuse is a different matter entirely. Apparently the store owner was afraid the latter might happen if he sold her a gun.
ZeSpectre
Member
You know, the thing that still astounds me almost 24 hours later is how UNCONCERNED the husband was after the cop told him that his wife had talked about shooting him.
It was all so weird at the time but the more I think about it the more the guy's unconcern seems really off kilter.
Believe me, if my wife were found in a gun shop, trying to purchase, and talking about using it on me, I'd be showing a good bit more worry about the matter!
It was all so weird at the time but the more I think about it the more the guy's unconcern seems really off kilter.
Believe me, if my wife were found in a gun shop, trying to purchase, and talking about using it on me, I'd be showing a good bit more worry about the matter!
SCKimberFan
Member
At least she has good taste in guns.
highorder
Member
I used to work at a Gander Mountain.
One night, a woman came in at 5 minutes to closing and immediately said she wanted two Springfield 1911's; a 45acp GI, and a Stainless 38 Super. She didn't want to see or handle them or even look them over for cosmetic defects.
I engaged her in conversation about the 38 Super, as they are a bit of a niche item. The woman was stiff and defensive about answering any questions, or even casually conversing while I got 4473's etc. ready. I asked her about her plans for the 38 Super, thinking she was planning to use it as a competition gun. She said "we'll do whatever we want with them" and got agitated. I then asked who "we" meant and she again told me it was none of my business.
I politely told her that I didn't feel comfortable selling her two handguns not knowing who the other "person" was and suggested that we would gladly finish the transaction the next day with the other party (and my manager) present. She exploded and cursed me out while storming to the front of the store. I didn't follow her, exchanged a strange glance with my co-worker and began closing procedures.
The next day, the Store manager called me into his office and dressed me down for being "suspicious" of a customer! I explaned that my reaction was beneficial to everyone involved who wasn't trying to break the law. I got written up, and was compelled to write the woman a letter of apology! :banghead:
Did I make a mistake by listening to my gut? I thought I was looking out for her, me, and gander...
One night, a woman came in at 5 minutes to closing and immediately said she wanted two Springfield 1911's; a 45acp GI, and a Stainless 38 Super. She didn't want to see or handle them or even look them over for cosmetic defects.
I engaged her in conversation about the 38 Super, as they are a bit of a niche item. The woman was stiff and defensive about answering any questions, or even casually conversing while I got 4473's etc. ready. I asked her about her plans for the 38 Super, thinking she was planning to use it as a competition gun. She said "we'll do whatever we want with them" and got agitated. I then asked who "we" meant and she again told me it was none of my business.
I politely told her that I didn't feel comfortable selling her two handguns not knowing who the other "person" was and suggested that we would gladly finish the transaction the next day with the other party (and my manager) present. She exploded and cursed me out while storming to the front of the store. I didn't follow her, exchanged a strange glance with my co-worker and began closing procedures.
The next day, the Store manager called me into his office and dressed me down for being "suspicious" of a customer! I explaned that my reaction was beneficial to everyone involved who wasn't trying to break the law. I got written up, and was compelled to write the woman a letter of apology! :banghead:
Did I make a mistake by listening to my gut? I thought I was looking out for her, me, and gander...
Halo
Member
Yep, that's what makes me suspect he was just trying to get her to buy a gun on his behalf and that was the little story they concocted for her to use. That's why earlier I suggested it was someone who didn't know much about buying guns, because someone familiar would know you can just go buy the gun, you don't have to start volunteering "I need one because" stories. I agree with the other poster who said it was a cliché stereotypical "woman needs to get a gun" story which they must have felt was necessary to seal the deal or something.
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