What would you do to improve an AR for defensive use

[Zak Smith]

The purpose of learning from a carbine class and not the internet is that you have direct experience that applies to how you operate your specific rifle and what changes might enhance or detract from its operation. The challenge put to the shooter and the carbine in a modern fighting rifle class is much more discriminating than either speculating idly on internet forums or plinking at the range.

 

[Z-Michigan]

A defensive weapon needs a good red dot, a flashlight, and some kind of handguard with picatinny rails.

What role do the red dot and picatinny rails play in a scenario involving lawful self defense, which will generally mean less than 25 yards to the target?

 

[briansmithwins]

What role do the red dot and picatinny rails play in a scenario involving lawful self defense, which will generally mean less than 25 yards to the target?

The red dot is going to get you hits on a bad guy faster and more accurately than irons.

Railed handguards do offer you a place to put a light. So you can see who you are thinking about shooting before you pull the trigger. BSW

 

[possum]

i am currently ordering all the parts for a BCM rifle right now, to replace my current ar. it is for defensive/ fighting use, so i figured that i would chime in

BCM 16" Socom upper
BCG this is very important so i am going to go with BCM of course
Spikes tactical lower
M2 sling (any fighting gun needs a good sling, i run single points more than anything else, and i like to have the option to make it 2 point if need be.(not that i will that often, however it is value added)
Optic and sights i have used and trained with alot of different optics in the militray and training sector, and i prefer the eo tech, so that is what i run, and with any optic you need a back up, i will be running an MBUS on my new ar.
lights you need a good light, i have several and i haven't descided which one i am going to use yet, but it will have one.
magazines you need good reliable magazines, i use pmags.
Odds and In's redi mag to speed up my reloads, and a BAD lever to make my speed reloads more efficient, and clearing a type three as well.

 

[possum]

the main thing is stay in context of what you need the rifle to do. for example i have an ar now with a knights armament rail, but the next rifle doesn't need that. i just need a handguard that will allow the attachment of the vfg, a light and a sling swivel. this way i save money, and i don't have a million miles of rail that i don't need.

now in the military context (as I am an Infantryman) i want as much rail as i can get for lights, peq 15, vfg etc.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The red dot is going to get you hits on a bad guy faster and more accurately than irons.

Yes, I know this is the standard advice, but is it really going to matter within 25 yards? FYI, I've done 2-gun competitions where I scored better with iron sights than with an EOTech. YMMV and I know that isn't how it works for many people, but you must understand you own skillset.

Railed handguards do offer you a place to put a light. So you can see who you are thinking about shooting before you pull the trigger. BSW

I agree on the light, but you don't need a fancy quadrail which is what the person seemed to be indicating. A $8 polymer rail section attached to your stock or MOE handguards will hold a small, high quality tactical light in place nicely, without adding much weight or costing a fortune.

 

[Girodin]

Light, Aimpoint micro T1, AFG, stock (likely a UBR), suppressor, BAD lever, MAgpul ASAP (pictured below),Magpul MS2 sling, Magpul MOE trigger guard, MIAD grip. Not all of these things are necessary. They are however modifications that I find useful.

To those commenting about training. You are of course right that it is more important than accessories, at least it is IMHO, but the two are not mutually exclusive. Thus to answer the question and say how you set up your rifle or would set it up is doesn't assume there will not also be seeking training, buying ammo or whatever else.

To those putting on ACOGs and talking about 400 yard shots, I cannot imagine a realistic defensive scenario in which I am shooting to 400 yards.

 

[gun guy]

It's not so much, how you change a weapon for offensive/defensive it is the tactics and thought process that makes the most difference. The AR or Assualt Rifle is just that. The rifle was designed to press forward an attack, by a group of soldiers. It has long been shown that a high volume of fire, even delievered with poor hit probability, poured on a static postion, tends to keep the heads down of the defenders, and make them rush their shots. Also due to the sheer volume of spray and pray, some hits can be expected. A superior force, with a high volume of fire, can overwhelm a fixed defense.
Conversely, as the defender, careful aimed fire, designed to cause the maximum casulty rate is the desired goal. Only systematically eliminating the attackers number will cause the assualt to wavier and fall apart. If you are planning on mainly defense, those items that will increase your hit probability taylored to existing conditions. Day, night, close quarters, farm land etc. Items such as scopes, aim points, lasers, folding stocks etc. The pitfall you want to avoid, with all the gadets and rails available for the AR, is overloading the weapon with gizmo's, which slow the weapon moving into battery. And depending on those gizmos while neglecting range time. Remember Murphys law, and respect the KISS principal.

 

[gun guy]

A good commander will usually only consider assualting an fortified defense, with a 10 to 1 advantage. All to often even a 5 to 1 advantage has failed to overtake a fortified position. Always remember, most criminals are cowards, and not very bright ones to begin with. So if a couple of them, decide to rush your house as it were, they have already lost to the force multiplier by a factor of 5. Hit one, his BFF will most likely turn tail and head for greener pastures.

 

[ugaarguy]

The AR or Assualt Rifle is just that.

Except that the AR in the AR-15 stands for Armalite Rifle, not Assault Rifle. Not the current Armalite either, but the original one; the division Fairchild Aviation where Eugene Stoner designed the weapon. Further, an Assault Rifle, by definition, must be capable of burst or fully automatic fire.

 

[Girodin]

folding stocks

That is not real practical on an AR.

 

[redbullitt]

I vote lots of ammo OR .22 conversion and shoot the heck out of it. That will take care of your sighting, controls etc. This has helped me a TON.

Either way, shoot it and try to drill with it.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

The best thing you can give your defensive weapon is lots of practice. Tactical doodads don't make you better with your weapon. However, quality magazines and a good sling will go a ways to making you better able to employ your weapon.

 

[Barbara]

Same stuff.

Practice/training.
Good magazines.
Good, dependable, repeatable ammo for defensive use. Less reliable ammunition can be used for practice but have a mag or two of the good stuff ready to go.

Beyond that, I have a lot of things attached but the minimum are probably a an optic with BUIS, a light and a decent sling.

Those are things that would be requirements for me, but there are a lot of things that I prefer.

I like a VFG which requires a rail but that's not a requirement and I find I've been sliding towards mag well use anyway, as it feels more stable for me.

An adjustable stock is good because I'm built relatively small.

Rail covers, hogue grip, etc? I have them but other than maybe a small spot of cover where my left thumb hits the rail, none of the other stuff is necessary.

 

[Kentucky]

OK, I probably should have elabroated a little more in my original post. Yes I understand that practice and training are priority #1. I practice a little more than I can actually afford to on my own dime. In addition, I am on my department's entry team, so that combined with our other regular training and shoots help the cause a little bit more.

I kinda wish I had left accessories out of my original post, and I was moreso talking about component changes to the AR. I probably just read it sideways, but in taliv's post where he mentions his fighting rifles being superior to the TDP for that purpose I thought perhaps he was talking about component changes to enhance reliability. For example, Noveske's barrels, which are supposed to be better than the barrels spec'd on the TDP.

Perhaps a better quality steel in the barrel? More stringent testing on the BCG? A more reliable extractor? Things like that. I thought perhaps there was an entire market of high-quality AR parts floating around out there and I was hoping to have an evolutionary leap forward in my understanding and knowledge of the AR rifle.

Yes, everything is loud but a .223 or bigger going off indoors will be enough to not only disorient the shooter but also permanently damage your hearing.

You know, I keep reading this but it is not neccesarily true in my opinion. I have fired quite a few rounds indoors now, some in shoothouses with rooms that are smaller and more confined than my own house, and I have not noticed any disorientation or permanent affects. As a matter of fact, when I am busy I don't really notice the noise of the shots much at all. I had never really thought about it until I was at a Dave Grossman class last week and he talked about auditory exclusion that often accompanies combat. I suppose that is the reason, in any event I don't find the 223 too loud for indoor work, especially when I consider the AR platform to be superior for fighting.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

If you have a mil-spec weapon, the parts on it are gonna be more than good enough for home defense. I assume you're not riding around in a HMMWV busting down doors in the desert, so your rifle is not really gonna be seeing all that much wear and tear. Even going to carbine classes and taking it to the range often is not going to damage a good mil-spec weapon, like BCM. I will recommend both the Magpul ASAP sling plate pictured a few posts above. That helps tremendously with shoulder to shoulder transitions, which are essential when operating indoors. I'll add to that a new charging handle with the extended grip, which you can also find on BCM. Those are great for operating the charging handle easily with one hand so that you do not upset your grip on the weapon. Beyond that, replacing stock parts really isn't an issue. If you have a good AR in the first place, which BCM is certainly that, the parts it came with are more than enough.

*If you're in a state that allows it, I would definitely consider going the SBR route. Shorter barrels are always easier to use indoors, and the loss of long range accuracy is irrelevant with a home defense gun.

 

[Zeke Markham]

Quote:
Yes, everything is loud but a .223 or bigger going off indoors will be enough to not only disorient the shooter but also permanently damage your hearing.

You know, I keep reading this but it is not neccesarily true in my opinion. I have fired quite a few rounds indoors now, some in shoothouses with rooms that are smaller and more confined than my own house, and I have not noticed any disorientation or permanent affects.

Oh give it time, sooner or later you'll notice. I know it isn't always going to be available, but when ever possible, use hearing protection.

 

[Tirod]

I'm going to step on some toes and suggest that three gun and defensive fighting are two different things.

If you plan on carrying a pistol, have practiced transistion drills, and use a sling, have you done so indoors in your home? That is just one scenario of defensive fighting, and not the only one. Assuming you have your gear available at a moment's notice, can get into it, and be prepared to confront someone, would you be putting on a belt and holster, or just grabbing the AR?

My point is, sling use is another tacticool recommendation made by users who focus on a competitive event and assume it would be useful in actual combat in a defensive role.

Most likely, someone armed with an AR won't have a pistol, won't need to keep the AR from hitting the ground while using the pistol, and should be doing a better job of using the AR or making sure it was highly reliable to not need the pistol. The transition to sidearm scenario is based on sudden failure, that LEO/Mil will see it more often due to their constant confrontational work habits. It's a nice accessory for a two gun advanced user, not the casual gun owner. It's not even a recommendation by the military on a consistent basis.

In urban use, vehicular, or in buildings, slings get caught on stupid things, which create sudden changes in the users handling and negotiation of obstacles, like staircases, vehicle doors, fencing, furniture, vegetation, ad infinitum. A single point sling reduces the exposure, but no sling at all minimizes the risk to zero. You won't ever see snag obstacles on a range precisely because it's unsafe. Nonetheless, the world is filled with them.

The constant chant of the mantra "optic/light/sling" distracts from the fact a user needs to practice without them and get the basics down to the point they can't make a mistake. The chant focuses on buying gear rather than training, and assumes a high standard of expertise on someone with a credit card, rather than reinforcing the need to invest time in training.

I have no complaint about optics, especially red dots, and lights can be helpful if correctly controlled, I draw the line at slings. Unless highly skilled, slings can do more harm than good for an excited and untrained user.

 

[possum]

when you do get the gun, and gear figured out, i highly suggest that you attend some training, heck someone that is highly trained on an a2 bone stock gun is better off in my book than someone with all the bells and wistles, and no training. I have the training, and i will continue to do more. (another carbine class in march).

with that said, my first 2 carbine courses, which were both 5 days each was with a bushmaster a2 carbine post ban. i have moved on since then and figured out what i like and or need in an AR and what works best for me. It is a never ending process, as now there are even more things out that i want to try, and atleats give them a chance. (ie the afg, redi-mag, bad lever etc) if they work out they will stay on the gun, if not they will be sold.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

The constant chant of the mantra "optic/light/sling" distracts from the fact a user needs to practice without them and get the basics down to the point they can't make a mistake. The chant focuses on buying gear rather than training, and assumes a high standard of expertise on someone with a credit card, rather than reinforcing the need to invest time in training.

A: I think it's a bit presumptuous for you to assume that people who use or suggest slings lack skills and just try to make up for it with gear purchases.

B: A rifle is generally a two handed weapon. What do you propose the defender do with his rifle in a home setting when one or both of his hands are needed for something else?

C: Have you ever actually practiced with a sling and had it get caught on something or really just be that in the way to the point you think sling use is foolish?

 

[taliv]

I kinda wish I had left accessories out of my original post, and I was moreso talking about component changes to the AR. I probably just read it sideways, but in taliv's post where he mentions his fighting rifles being superior to the TDP for that purpose I thought perhaps he was talking about component changes to enhance reliability. For example, Noveske's barrels, which are supposed to be better than the barrels spec'd on the TDP.

Perhaps a better quality steel in the barrel? More stringent testing on the BCG? A more reliable extractor? Things like that. I thought perhaps there was an entire market of high-quality AR parts floating around out there and I was hoping to have an evolutionary leap forward in my understanding and knowledge of the AR rifle.

KY,

that's pretty much it. You can get much better barrels than milspec, with better specs. For instance,
longer or shorter barrel, as appropriate for your needs
hammer forged or stainless if it's more appropriate to what you're doing
a wylde chamber (or noveske's et al copies, or sam-r)
a profile that's lighter weight
thicker chrome in noveske's barrels (arguably mil-spec, just not for the M4)

and that's just the barrel
look at the KAC SR-15 bolt lugs (better than milspec), extractor (better than milspec) and dual extractor springs (better than milspec)
the geissele SSA trigger is a lot better than mil spec and still reliable.
if you're looking for improvements in the receiver, look at the monolithic uppers

that's just a couple things off the top of my head. i'm sure there are literally hundreds of products out there that are better than mil-spec.

I'm going to step on some toes and suggest that three gun and defensive fighting are two different things.

i don't think you're stepping on toes so much as standing up straw men. off-topic strawmen at that. Please start another thread if you want to debate your opinion on slings.

 

[Delta39]

Abolish all laws restricting the ownership of SBR's. I know, ain't gonna happen.

 

[C-grunt]

I would suggest a sling and a light. Those I would say are needed.

The light to ID your target.

The sling can be usefull for many things. Like freeing up your hands to do what ever. More importantly it is good for weapon retention. If someone grabs your barrel and you are slung up, take a large step back and go to a knee quickly, this will usually either free the rifle up or bring the muzzle into the bad guy.

Red dots are helpfull for sure, especially at night. But I wouldnt say they are NEEDED.

 

[CraigC]

What role do the red dot and picatinny rails play in a scenario involving lawful self defense, which will generally mean less than 25 yards to the target?

Ever try to find your iron sights in the dark or while using a weaponlight? Finding your targets on a 3-gun course in broad daylight is a lot different from finding the intruder in your living room at 2am.

You know, I keep reading this but it is not neccesarily true in my opinion. I have fired quite a few rounds indoors now, some in shoothouses with rooms that are smaller and more confined than my own house, and I have not noticed any disorientation or permanent affects.

Without hearing protection???

 

[Barbara]

The constant chant of the mantra "optic/light/sling" distracts from the fact a user needs to practice without them and get the basics down to the point they can't make a mistake. The chant focuses on buying gear rather than training, and assumes a high standard of expertise on someone with a credit card, rather than reinforcing the need to invest time in training.

It doesn't at all focus on buying gear. If that were the case, I'd have suggested froofroo stock, a big honking quad rail with flashlights in two positions, a bad lever, redi-mag, and a Schmidt and Bender optic. Instead, I focused on the three things, for me, that made the carbines I shoot regularly useful for my purposes which are home defense and two gun shooting.

In the one situation where I used (but did not fire) my rifle in a home defense situation, I used the sling. I did not use a holster and in fact, set my pistol down to hold an additional carbine magazine. If I had been wearing more than a t shirt and undies, I'd have probably used a pocket but that wasn't an option. But my hands were full. I was glad to have the option of extra support if necessary.

My iron sights are sited in (well, they were until this past weekend, when I completely unassembled my barrel and upper receiver during an armorer's class..but by the weekend, they'll be back there.) and I can use them, although I'm not as fast with them and in the close quarters I'd ever likely need them, as accurate.

I've trained at least moderately well for a civilian and I'm confident in my abilities to hit bad guys, which is my goal for training. These three items are the ones, for me, that my training and use have led me to believe would be most useful to me in a defensive situation.