What would you do to improve an AR for defensive use

[Zak Smith]

Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. Torching rounds off outside with no earpro will cause some hearing damage - inside, definitely. You might or might not notice, but it's there.

I don't like a lot of junk on my rifles, and I do not usually like to have a rail fore-end. The exceptions are if I will be using a VFG more than half the time (useful when shooting full-auto or suppressed to deal with barrel heat) or have a light mounted. But there are a bunch of modular float tubes that allow just the rail sections you need to be mounted, which can reduce the overall bulk of the front end of the rifle.

I'm going to step on some toes and suggest that three gun and defensive fighting are two different things.

This shouldn't step on toes. Fighting and competition are two different things by definition. However, 3-Gun competition is a crucible in which better techniques and equipment are evolved to solve practical shooting problems. Fighting adds other aspects and when taking those techniques and tools from competition to fighting, judgment and experience must be brought to bear on if they are appropriate or not, an advantage or not, a liability or not, etc. However, with that said, competition is the place where most of the better tools and techniques are developed: the US Army and USMC both understand this and that's why they have 3-Gun (and other practical shooting teams).

My point is, sling use is another tacticool recommendation made by users who focus on a competitive event and assume it would be useful in actual combat in a defensive role.

I find this statement curious. I have taken a bunch of fighting rifle classes from a variety of trainers, and I have competed in 3-Gun at the national level since 2003. Categorically, 3Gunners are less concerned about slings and almost always only put them on their rifles when the stage requires it (otherwise they get in the way and can slow you down), while the fighting rifle trainers always indicate that the sling is mandatory.

You won't ever see snag obstacles on a range precisely because it's unsafe.

In 3-Gun matches I've shot from within/on/in vegegation, vehicles (moving and non moving), doors, walls, wobbly platforms, helicopters (both "prop" and flying), armored vehicles, trenches, trees, stairs, furniture, bunkers, etc.

 

[EdLaver]

Keep it light, enhance the trigger, add a 1-4x optic with an etched illuminated reticle (So if the batteries run out, you still have a reticle). Choose a grip and stock that fit your hand and cheek weld. Sling of your choice and if you decide, a flashlight.

 

[LiquidTension]

As long as you start with a quality gun such as a BCM and run it enough to make sure it's reliable, I don't see the need to upgrade any of the core components.

If we're talking accessories, I feel a light is mandatory for HD use. Other items could of course be useful (red dots, slings, VFGs, suppressors, etc.) but the light is the only thing you really can't do without.

 

[benEzra]

Yes, I know this is the standard advice, but is it really going to matter within 25 yards? FYI, I've done 2-gun competitions where I scored better with iron sights than with an EOTech. YMMV and I know that isn't how it works for many people, but you must understand you own skillset.

I am definitely a bit faster with an Eotech than with irons even in good lighting and a normal shooting position, but where the Eotech really pulls ahead is in lousy/contrasty lighting, oddball shooting positions, and moving targets (or shooting while moving), IMO. The fact that you don't have to refocus your eyes from the target to the front sight post to make a precise shot is nice, also.

Yes, everything is loud but a .223 or bigger going off indoors will be enough to not only disorient the shooter but also permanently damage your hearing.

Because the loudness of a gunshot is proportional to caliber and inversely proportional to barrel length, a .223/16" barrel is not significantly louder in terms of peak dBA than a 9mm or .40 with a 3.5" or 4" barrel, and is considerably less loud than a .357 revolver due to the barrel/cylinder gap. The sound spectrum may be a bit different, but in terms of hearing damage a .223, a 9mm, a .40, a .45, and a 12-gauge/18" barrel are all about the same.

 

[CraigC]

Pressure relative to bore size is also a factor and I have a REALLY hard time believing that a .223 rifle fired indoors will have no more effect than your average duty pistol.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Ever try to find your iron sights in the dark or while using a weaponlight?

I have actually practiced both of those skills. Cheekweld and practice, cheekweld and practice, cheekweld and practice. At greater distances and in perfectly-bad lighting conditions I can see the benefits of the RDS. Inside the house or at other short typical defensive distances I am not convinced of a significant benefit. The RDS is also a benefit if you're in the dark and your target is a big dark blur inside of dark. In that case, how do you know that your target is (1) a bad guy [rather than the cat, or your daughter's boyfriend] and (2) actually threatening you at the moment you shoot, therefore making the shoot a lawful defensive shoot?

I am definitely a bit faster with an Eotech than with irons even in good lighting and a normal shooting position, but where the Eotech really pulls ahead is in lousy/contrasty lighting, oddball shooting positions, and moving targets (or shooting while moving), IMO. The fact that you don't have to refocus your eyes from the target to the front sight post to make a precise shot is nice, also.

No argument here.

I'm not saying that the RDS is necessarily a bad choice, I'm saying that I do not consider it anywhere near essential for civilian defensive use. And it has some big drawbacks:
-cost - $400+ for a quality "bet your life" Aimpoint or Trijicon option
-turning it on - unless it's one of those two (leave an Aimpoint on constantly)
-even if it's one of those two, it can fail. If it's anything else, it's prone to fail.
-leave your rifle stored on its buttstock for months? I'll bet your optic has a lot of dust on the lens, making it poor to useless. Oh, unless you keep a lens cover on it, which would then be one more thing to have to deal with, or forget, in the heat of a defensive scenario.

I want to emphasize that I consider the optic choice more personal than many other gear choices, in large part because eyesight varies a lot from person to person in several different ways. I have great eyesight, I can shoot irons with both eyes open with no issues (ditto with an ACOG), and I apparently have an astigmatism that causes conventional RDS (not the EOTech) to be a blob instead of a small dot in moderate to dim lighting conditions. If you have poor eyesight, or at least don't have the astigmatism, the RDS might work better for you. But my understanding was that the discussion here is focused on essentials, not "nice to have" type items. If we go the latter route I would be asking for a para-M249 with EOTech, NVG, and maybe an assistant gunner to carry spare belts for me.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I think removing your irons and relying on optics only is a bad idea. Doesn't matter if its electronic or standard glass.. scopes get banged around and can fail. A sling of some sort is useful so you can use your hands. A flashlight is useless at long range but makes sense up close.

Good magazines are critical. Almost everyone is using Mag-pul now. I've had no jams with Colt or Mag-pul magazines.

Set your collapsing stock to where its comfortable and leave it. I used a bit of pac-skin to cover the hole in the top of the stock where it yanks on my beard. Stock AR grips aren't for everyone. I haven't replaced mine yet, but I'm planning on a Houge grip, same as my defensive handguns. I also added a slip on recoil pad.. not that an AR kicks much just the stock butt of the Colt 6920 has serrations etc that I found uncomfortable and would snag on my shirt when shouldering it.

And yes SHOOT IT A BUNCH and not just off a bench.

 

[mljdeckard]

I am a fan of everything magpul, and I might throw many things onto it, but at the same time, there is something to be said about learning the rifle bone stock, how to run it, how it will behave, what to expect, BEFORE you start tinkering with it.

The rule is; "Everything you need, nothing you don't." As with everything gun-related, the line between 'need' and 'want' lies with the individual. Just be willing to ask yourself if an accessory really makes the gun run better or if you just think it's cool.

 

[Ike R]

Essentials are sling either 2 point or 1 point that is capable of unsnapping, 100 lumen light, iron sights. it is nice to have am eotech or other RD sight, but it is not necesary in the home IMHO. A laser is not a bad idea IMHO, but once again not nessecary.

The other advantage to a sling that alot of people don't seem to mention is that you won't drop your rifle if you encounter an obstruction, slip, trip, fall, get stabbed, shot, tackled ect. I mention slings capable of unsnapping because in a carbine class I watched a poor uninformed student get stuck so many times because he couldn't clear a tangle or switch to off shoulder quickly enough with his stiff, immaculately tooled padded leather hunting sling that was permantly attached to his shoulder.

What is needed is training either from a pro or lacking the cash practical application of what you do know! I have taken a few carbine and pistol courses but I feel training in the area you have to work in is paramount to defending your home.

For example are you home alone? Are the kids gone, maybe the wifes out with them or friends? Sling on your rifle and cook a meal, or vacume the house, clear each room one at a time as you would in a SHTF LEFMO situation....get active in your home and on your property WITH your equipment so that muscle memory tells you how to move with that rifles weight hanging on your shoulders. Note area's that you can't move at the ready through and objects that give the appearance of an intruder, fix those issues if possible. Once you are comfortable with this include your family in the drill.

I do this regularly, in fact clear my entire property regularly, I let my nieghbors know what i am doing and invite them to participate, normally its me my father and brother (who live on each side of me) but some night's the young lady next door participates with her pistol. LE stopped one night as they drove by but a few words from my mother who waits by the road and he left about his business again. We clear the area's in and around all 4 houses, the rice dryers, and 3 shops, we move as a 2 or 3 person team, covered at range by someone in a "sniper" type position. its about a 7 acre tract, it takes about 20 mins starting on one side of the property together and going to the other, takes about 45 if my brother exits his home and clears his way to me, then me and him to my father, then us to our nieghbors.

 

[Zerodefect]

Ok, good thread. Good question. A defensive carbine should be kept simple, but have/do everything it can to keep you safe. No exceptions for cost or comfort.

Assuming using a basic base Flattop M4 type AR like a Colt 6920 or BCM I would add/change (in order of importance):

-Magpul AOTTC 2 DVD. Gives you and idea where to start, what works, and what you can expect at defensive carbine classes. Skip the first one, the basics are still covered in the second.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magp...actical-carbine-2-dvd-p/magpul dvd dyn002.htm

-Tacticle carbine training. Costs less than an optic, and is worth much, much more. Classes are $300-600 usually and about 1000rnds 5.56 and 300 for your secondary.

-Ambi safety, you don't get to choose to shoot left or right handed in a defensive situation, your cover determines which arm you use. And you can't just leave your safety off when moving.

-Magpul 30rnd pmags
-1x optic. Aimpoint ML3, M3, T1, H1
-Larue Optic mount (best of the best)
-Magpul Ms2 sling. Great sling, switches from 2 point to a perfect single point in less than a second.

-sling mount plate

-BCM chest carrier. You can keep 4 mags in this ready to go. Grab it and throw it over your shoulder anytime you grab your AR. Things have gone way south if the pistol on your hip didn't do the trick and your going for your
AR anyway.

-Magpul BAD lever. Speeds up mag changes, double feed clearence, and lefty operation.

-Rifle length Free Float rails. DD or Larue. You can't put a light on a carbine rail and still have a proper grip, you'll need longer rails unless you use a obsolete grip stance. If you want to stay with a standard carbine than MI makes a pair of rails that atach to the front sight base. It spaces your light out farther for a better grip stance.

-Troy BUIS, obviosly needed if you hacked off the front sight for your rail system.

-Light in a offset QD mount. I like Larues mount and a Surefie G2LED.
-Magpul XTM rail covers. Nice and tight.
-Forward sling mount on your rails. So you can switch the MS2 sling to 2 point mode.


Basicly I run nothing less than the above for defense. I may QD the light and ditch it during the day.

 

[Ike R]

Wanted to add that EMA tactical (www.EMAtactical.com) makes a very excellent CQC light laser combo called the TLL. its very small and while not mil spec I have had no issues mounting it on anything I own.

150 lumens on the light and runs 6 hours,

laser stays solid at POA even without locktite after rapid fire. (tested this on a 223 full auto fired off a grip pod)

has thumb and pressure switch with 4 settings to turn off, light on alone, laser on alone and light and laser on

its also quick detach

Price at a local gunshop was 107 dollars out the door with 2 spare batterys

no reason not to have both light and laser equipped at that price IMHO.

Also I am a big fan of vertical forgrips, especially the ones that allow you to hold a magazine, if you have one on your carbine then won't forget a reload

 

[Kentucky]

look at the KAC SR-15 bolt lugs (better than milspec), extractor (better than milspec) and dual extractor springs (better than milspec)
the geissele SSA trigger is a lot better than mil spec and still reliable.
if you're looking for improvements in the receiver, look at the monolithic uppers

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate everybody's standard answer of getting training, and practicing, but believe me I am doing that and equipment does not preclude training. I have more classes on my wish list than I could possibly get to next year, I was hoping to discuss equipment upgrades that enhance reliability or functionality of a fighting gun.

Assuming using a basic base Flattop M4 type AR like a Colt 6920 or BCM I would add/change (in order of importance):

-Magpul AOTTC 2 DVD. Gives you and idea where to start, what works, and what you can expect at defensive carbine classes. Skip the first one, the basics are still covered in the second.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpu...d dyn002.htm

-Tacticle carbine training. Costs less than an optic, and is worth much, much more. Classes are $300-600 usually and about 1000rnds 5.56 and 300 for your secondary.

-Ambi safety, you don't get to choose to shoot left or right handed in a defensive situation, your cover determines which arm you use. And you can't just leave your safety off when moving.

-Magpul 30rnd pmags
-1x optic. Aimpoint ML3, M3, T1, H1
-Larue Optic mount (best of the best)
-Magpul Ms2 sling. Great sling, switches from 2 point to a perfect single point in less than a second.

-sling mount plate

-BCM chest carrier. You can keep 4 mags in this ready to go. Grab it and throw it over your shoulder anytime you grab your AR. Things have gone way south if the pistol on your hip didn't do the trick and your going for your
AR anyway.

-Magpul BAD lever. Speeds up mag changes, double feed clearence, and lefty operation.

-Rifle length Free Float rails. DD or Larue. You can't put a light on a carbine rail and still have a proper grip, you'll need longer rails unless you use a obsolete grip stance. If you want to stay with a standard carbine than MI makes a pair of rails that atach to the front sight base. It spaces your light out farther for a better grip stance.

-Troy BUIS, obviosly needed if you hacked off the front sight for your rail system.

-Light in a offset QD mount. I like Larues mount and a Surefie G2LED.
-Magpul XTM rail covers. Nice and tight.
-Forward sling mount on your rails. So you can switch the MS2 sling to 2 point mode.


Basicly I run nothing less than the above for defense. I may QD the light and ditch it during the day.

Thanks, this sounds like a great setup and kind of mirrors my own desires.

So when talking about component upgrades in the AR system to enhance reliability and usability, this is what I see on the list so far.

- KAC SR-15 bolt lugs
- KAC extractor
- KAC dual extractor springs
- Geissele SSA trigger
- Noveske barrel
- BCM charging handle

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Note that the KAC bolt requires a KAC barrel extension as well. You can't retrofit the KAC bolt to a BCM barrel.

 

[benEzra]

Pressure relative to bore size is also a factor and I have a REALLY hard time believing that a .223 rifle fired indoors will have no more effect than your average duty pistol.

Because of the duty pistol's far shorter barrel, the gas pressure behind the bullet at muzzle exit is not much different than the pressure behind the .223 bullet out of a non-NFA-length barrel at muzzle exit. Now, if you were comparing a 16" 9mm to a 16" .223, or a 4" 9mm to a 4" .223 (ha!) then obviously .223 would be louder. But 4" 9mm vs. 16" .223 is comparable.

I'm not sure if the following figures are dB (flat) or dBA (weighted to reflect the frequency response of the human ear). dBA is the more important number of the two, and I think these are dBA.

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)

.410 Bore 28" barrel.....150dB
26" barrel...............150.25dB
18 _" barrel.............156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel......152.50dB
22" barrel...............154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel......151.50dB
26" barrel...............156.10dB
18 _" barrel.............161.50dB

Dr. Krammer continues to say that shotgun noise averaged slightly more that 150dB. This is approximately 14dB beyond the threshold of pain, and more than sufficient to cause sudden hearing loss with complications.


Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel.....155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel...........................155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel.........................156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel.....................157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel...........................156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel.........................158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel.......................163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake...........170 dB

Krammer adds that sound pressure levels for the various pistols and ammunition tested yielded an average mean of 157.5 dB, which is greater than those previously shown for shotgun and rifle noise levels. There was also a greater range, from 152.4dB to 164.5dB, representing 12 dB difference, or more than 10 time as much acoustic energy for the top end of the pistol spectrum. It should be noticed that this figure of 164.5 dB approaches the practical limit of impulse noise measurement capability inherent in most modern sound level meters.


Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA

.25 ACP...........155.0 dB
.32 LONG..........152.4 dB
.32 ACP...........153.5 dB
.380..............157.7 dB
9mm...............159.8 dB
.38 S&W...........153.5 dB
.38 Spl...........156.3 dB
.357 Magnum.......164.3 dB
.41 Magnum........163.2 dB
.44 Spl...........155.9 dB
.45 ACP...........157.0 dB
.45 COLT..........154.7 dB

The figures he gives are for a 18" .223, so add a couple dB for a 16" barrel. And note that the loudest of all handguns are the the magnum revolvers, due to the combination of the relatively high working pressures and the barrel/cylinder gap.

Also note the big difference that a muzzle brake on a rifle makes. IMO this is one big reason not to use a muzzle brake or compensator on an HD rifle (the other reason would be the likelihood of momentarily flash-blinding yourself in dim light).

 

[taliv]

KY, note that i qualified most of those statements by mentioning your use case.

i don't really think the noveske barrel is necessarily, quantifiably more reliable than a bcm barrel. it MIGHT be sub-MOA a couple thousand rounds longer than a bcm barrel (assuming both started out sub-MOA). so if you NEED that, then go for it. clearly, the military doesn't think they need it, so they opted for the much cheaper spec.

i don't really know, but my guess is that as an LEOs in WY, you might need to shoot something a good bit farther away than an LEO in rural TN, since walmart parkinglots are about the only place you can see farther than 30 yrds

my point is just don't go buying everything on that list unless you need it or just want to

 

[kwelz]

Some good points Zero. if I could interject a few thoughts...

Ok, good thread. Good question. A defensive carbine should be kept simple, but have/do everything it can to keep you safe. No exceptions for cost or comfort.

Assuming using a basic base Flattop M4 type AR like a Colt 6920 or BCM I would add/change (in order of importance):

-Magpul AOTTC 2 DVD. Gives you and idea where to start, what works, and what you can expect at defensive carbine classes. Skip the first one, the basics are still covered in the second.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpu...d dyn002.htm

Magpul vids are good. but I suggest also looking at some others. Vickers is expecially good.

-Tacticle carbine training. Costs less than an optic, and is worth much, much more. Classes are $300-600 usually and about 1000rnds 5.56 and 300 for your secondary.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO THIS!! This is the single most important thing you can do. Period.

-Ambi safety, you don't get to choose to shoot left or right handed in a defensive situation, your cover determines which arm you use. And you can't just leave your safety off when moving.

I agree this can be helpful but with the proper training you can work a standard safety left or right handed.

-Magpul 30rnd pmags
-1x optic. Aimpoint ML3, M3, T1, H1
-Larue Optic mount (best of the best)
-Magpul Ms2 sling. Great sling, switches from 2 point to a perfect single point in less than a second.

Agreed on the optics but I suggest the Vickers Tactical 2 Point sling. At the prompting of people here I gave 2 point slings a try and have found them much more useful/ Plus the MS2 sling is far to thin and prone to twisting. Also check out American Defense mounts. I like them slightly better than the Larue. They also don't scar up your upper like the Larue mount does.

-sling mount plate

-BCM chest carrier. You can keep 4 mags in this ready to go. Grab it and throw it over your shoulder anytime you grab your AR. Things have gone way south if the pistol on your hip didn't do the trick and your going for your
AR anyway.

Agreed although I would also suggest looking at a belt setup. You can fit a bit more on them like Pistol mags, lights, etc. But I in no way think the Chest Rig idea is a bad one. I have a couple

-Magpul BAD lever. Speeds up mag changes, double feed clearence, and lefty operation.

Here is the one area I am going to disagree on. I had them on all my guns. Thought they would be great for everything you said. They worked great in dry drills. Then I hit the range. Adrenaline was pumping. I was moving. I reloaded. I hit the Bad lever, and I sent a round into who knows where. When your blood gets pumping it is far to easy for your finger to continue moving into the trigger guard and light a round off. I have spoken with a couple people who know a heck of a lot more than I do about such things and they agree. B.A.D. is a great idea in theory but has a big flaw in practice. Especially with someone who is un or under trained.

-Rifle length Free Float rails. DD or Larue. You can't put a light on a carbine rail and still have a proper grip, you'll need longer rails unless you use a obsolete grip stance. If you want to stay with a standard carbine than MI makes a pair of rails that atach to the front sight base. It spaces your light out farther for a better grip stance.

Amen, I would also suggest the Troy TRX extreme and VTAC rails. Both are undere 200 and work great for a Home defense carbine.

-Troy BUIS, obviosly needed if you hacked off the front sight for your rail system.

Big thumbs up to this.

-Light in a offset QD mount. I like Larues mount and a Surefie G2LED.

A lightless carbine is pretty much useless at night.

-Magpul XTM rail covers. Nice and tight.

This is one reason I like the TRX. No need for covers.

-Forward sling mount on your rails. So you can switch the MS2 sling to 2 point mode.


Basicly I run nothing less than the above for defense. I may QD the light and ditch it during the day.
Sounds like great minds things alike. Some minor variances but overall I agree with you.

 

[Kentucky]

i don't really know, but my guess is that as an LEOs in WY, you might need to shoot something a good bit farther away than an LEO in rural TN, since walmart parkinglots are about the only place you can see farther than 30 yrds

Well, I work for the city, so probably not too much further, at least in the line of duty. You are right about the distances though, even after a year+ out here I am still amazed by how far you can see sometimes. A 50 BMG wouldn't reach far enough to hit what you see sometimes

my point is just don't go buying everything on that list unless you need it or just want to

Yeah, I won't be because I don't know if I could get everything put together in time to defend myself against the wife when she saw the bill This thread was moreso to flesh out the idea and create a list of "better than milspec" components for the AR. And by better I mean "more reliable" or "more functional" without losing reliability.

I forgot to add a midlength gas system to my earlier list.

 

[Zak Smith]

I walked into a Super-Walmart once and started counting paces. I could walk over 300 paces line of sight in at least one direction.

 

[Tirod]

A: I think it's a bit presumptuous for you to assume that people who use or suggest slings lack skills and just try to make up for it with gear purchases.

B: A rifle is generally a two handed weapon. What do you propose the defender do with his rifle in a home setting when one or both of his hands are needed for something else?

C: Have you ever actually practiced with a sling and had it get caught on something or really just be that in the way to the point you think sling use is foolish?

A: Having read a lot of these posts in the 'net, I don't think it's presumptuous at all. I see a lot of recommendations for first time users to adopt gear that is professional grade and requires training first. Having been a young male, and still selling auto parts to them, I think I do understand that there are some that make gear purchases with no real understanding or experience. They buy more gun than they can shoot, they buy more hot rod parts than they can competently install and coordinate.

B: The Home Defender stereotype is to act like a Police Officer and attempt an arrest. Armed with a rifle, he's better off repelling the intruder and letting them go. Constitutionally, he's more often well within the law to shoot them once identified. I see little reason to need either hand for something else if both are on a carbine directed at the intruder. They are either leaving or down.

C:OIBC 4-83, 22 years Reserves. My last four years in I worked in an MP unit. Yes, I have worked with and without a sling, in the field, in admin situations, for weeks at a time. A Infantryman is not a cop, and beginning riflemen don't need complications in their initial training that cause problems. Again, get trained first, then add the doodads if needed.

Being most of my initial instructor's were badged to the max combat vets of Vietnam, and their consistent recommendation was no sling, I did it without much thought. Later on I got it, and still see little advantage to the beginning users. MP's, LEO, competition, no problem. Newb AR users with zip training, why create a buy impulse on something that's a bling item for their skill level?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm also gonna have to disagree on the use of Ambi-safties and the BAD levers. I understand this is a carbine for personal use and so my point is somewhat lessened, but I am a pretty firm believer in not adding anything to the weapon that changes its basic operation. One can train themselves to use a standard safety off hand. And the BAD levers just add a lot of stuff that someone else may not be familiar with. If someone else has to use your weapon or if the police have to pick it up, clear it, and log it in as evidence, I personally would want the operation of that weapon to be as close to standard as possible.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

B: The Home Defender stereotype is to act like a Police Officer and attempt an arrest. Armed with a rifle, he's better off repelling the intruder and letting them go. Constitutionally, he's more often well within the law to shoot them once identified. I see little reason to need either hand for something else if both are on a carbine directed at the intruder. They are either leaving or down

So that home defender would not need to use a phone, door knob, light switch, perform first aid, pick a sleeping baby or child out of a bed to take them to the master bedroom, anything like that?

C:OIBC 4-83, 22 years Reserves. My last four years in I worked in an MP unit. Yes, I have worked with and without a sling, in the field, in admin situations, for weeks at a time. A Infantryman is not a cop, and beginning riflemen don't need complications in their initial training that cause problems. Again, get trained first, then add the doodads if needed.

You didn't actually answer whether or not you ever found that sling to be in the way. I have also used a sling on my M4 as an MP and for civilian LEO training. I have never found the sling to be anything less than a great help.

I also gotta wonder at the logic behind the OP or any other civilian being smart enough to become reliable trained to use any rifle, yet somehow a sling is too complicated?

 

[Zak Smith]

I didn't see on that page of dB data where the measurement was taken; however, from testing suppressors using the mil-spec standard (ie including location of mic), peak dB for a .308 with no muzzle device is always over 160 dB.

 

[UnTainted]

sell it and buy a sig 556? I hear they do well at the classes. I'd get the "pistol" version, SBR register it, put a stock on it, and add a suppressor.

 

[kwelz]

Sig is ok but offers nothing over an AR and has a few shortcomings of its own.

 

[benEzra]

Not sure where the mic was in this test, so I would be careful about comparing those numbers to numbers generated by different equipment. Within the same test, though, the comparisons should be reasonably accurate.

Regarding the milspec suppressor testing procedure, would that be MIL-STD-1474D, or something else? Depending on how recent the spec is, it's hard to say which would be more accurate in absolute terms (milspec measurement vs. top-of-the-line civilian equipment), BUT the milspec would probably make the measurements very consistent and allow good comparison between different suppressors.