What would you do?

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Stinger

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I was watching a show on ABC called "What would you do" and it contained an interesting scenario. A homeless man/woman was being assaulted by some hoodlums. All of the participants were actors, so there was no actual assault.

ABC was wanting to see what the response of passersby would be in this situation. There were various responses, but that is not really what I'm interested in.

What concerned me was what would happen if someone with a gun had come to the aid of the homeless man and woman. Things could have gotten out of hand very quickly and someone could have been seriously hurt. The hoodlums actually had a bat (rubber) that they were using to hit the hobo.

I guess you can do things like this in certain parts of country. Where I live, though, these thugs would have been confronted with force. What say you?
 
Depends on what level the assault was. If they were just shoving the homeless person around some, I would probably call the cops and keep an eye on the situation.

If it was a full on beat down (technical college terminology) then I would like to think I would get involved (easy to say here, I hope I never find out).
 
In thinking about it, as much as I hate to say it, it probably depends on who the homeless person was as well.

In my home city there is a perma-fried guy who everyone calls Dizzy, he wanders main street using a broom as a guitar, singing songs about whatever is on his mind, and flipping people off. He's practically an institution, and were some thugs to gang up on him in public half the city would be after them.
 
A couple of years ago on a crowded street in downtown Denver, I witnessed a punk kid punch some crazy old street preacher in the face. I wasn't carrying a gun. The preacher guy was shouting scripture to anyone who cared to listen and probably was somewhat annoying, but he did not deserve to get his nose bloodied and his glasses broken.

The preacher man immediately shouted “HELP, POLICE”, but no one other than me seemed to even break stride as they went about their business. As I approached, the punk immediately realized he might be in trouble and started to walk away very quickly. (I was about 4" taller and 70lbs heavier than this angry ~ 20yo kid) The preacher man followed close behind him, still clutching his broken glasses and shouting for the police.

As I followed the two, I dialed 911 on my cell phone and attempted to report this assault. Unfortunately, the phone I was carrying at the time was a Phoenix number... the 911 operator was more interested in drilling me with questions about who I was and where I was from than listening to me report the crime. Eventually I managed to relate the incident to the operator but by that time all three of us were 2 blocks away around a corner. The kid stopped and confronted the preacher again, this time asking why he was following him and denying that he had punched him. There was a moment when the kid turned to me and asked what my problem was... I told him I saw everything and he still denied everything.

The kid started to walk away again, the preacher and I looked at each other and just let him go.

I guess maybe I'm gutless, but I just couldn't see myself fighting in the street over an incident that had already passed. Everyone went their separate ways before we saw any cops, and I lost a little respect for a whole bunch of things ....including maybe myself.
 
homeless man/woman was being assaulted by some hoodlums

First I'd be moving toward the fray and yelling..

For me to draw a sidearm, it would depend on how many hoods and what implements are being or are about to be used. In other words, if there is an immediate threat to life.

If it's a farce, I would suspect they would throw up their hands and make it clear that it is all an act.

If it was for real .. and they attack rather than run or give up..
:fire:
 
Spyvie said:
As I followed the two, I dialed 911 on my cell phone and attempted to report this assault. Unfortunately, the phone I was carrying at the time was a Phoenix number... the 911 operator was more interested in drilling me with questions about who I was and where I was from than listening to me report the crime.
The first thing you do when using a cell phone for a 911 call is state where you are. Even when you are at home, you may have your call picked up by the regional call center (around here that's 90 miles away). So ALWAYS start a (cell phone) 911 call with the city you are in and a street location (corner of walk and don't walk isn't helpful :D ). Then state what the problem is. ID911 summarizes everything you need to do/say.
 
When you dial 911 on a cell phone,does it default to the local 911 center or the one from your area code?
 
The first thing you do when using a cell phone for a 911 call is state where you are.

The incident happened at a well known intersection, 16th an Stout. I told the operator the location immediately and she still seemed more interested in who I was and why I was calling from an out of state phone. That part of the conversation was very frustrating and took probably 30 - 40 seconds.

When you dial 911 on a cell phone,does it default to the local 911 center or the one from your area code?

I dailed 911 and got the local (Denver) operator.
 
first of all it would depend on whether I was alone or had my family with me.

I think whipping out my cell and making it apparent to the thugs that I was in the process of calling the police would probably defuse the situation. This would have to be done at a safe reaction distance. If things escalated I'm more than capable of handling myself.

My next course of action would be directly related to the severity of the assault. I think that it is my responsibility as a member of society to stand up for the weaker among us. If everybody turns a blind eye to this type of behavior it only tells these punks that what they are doing is OK and before you know it this type of behavior gets out of hand.

We as a society need to take a stand against the gang bangin, intimidators and their untouchable mentality....my .02
 
i saw an episode of scare tactics a few years back... the girlfriend of this guy set him up... they went on a dune buggy ride on the beach... and as they crossed over this one dune, there was another buggy with a mounted MG on it that took aim at them and hijacked their buggy... i was thinking to myself, what if the guy had a gun and decided to shoot it out...
 
There's a legal doctrine that basically says you can legally step into another's shoes . What this means - assuming your state recognizes this doctrine - is that if you see someone who is being assaulted with lethal force and that they could legally respond with lethal force that you can step into their shoes and use lethal force in their stead to defend them.

It was made very clear by the attorney who taught the CCW class I attended that unless you know 100% for sure what's going on stepping into another's shoes was not a sound decision to make. He related numerous examples of real life scenarios that illustrated exactly why.

In the case of the scenario related by the OP - IANAL - it is my opinion that stepping into the hobo's shoes and pulling a gun on the attackers would get you in a serious bind. No law was being broken, lethal force was not being used. The fact that you didn't know that is irrelevant. No shots fired and you might get off with a brandishing charge otherwise...

Calling the cops is probably the best thing to do in any situation where a stranger is in danger - you think - and you aren't - unless you are willing to suffer all the legal headaches, potential prison etc that goes with it.

That's a pretty sad statement concerning the society we live in but that's just the way it goes.
 
Why is this even a question CCW or not the answer from every one should be .......cell phone and 911
 
Posted by Eric F:
Why is this even a question CCW or not the answer from every one should be .......cell phone and 911
If you see someone getting beaten with a baseball bat in broad daylight, you are going to call 911 and watch?
 
If you see someone getting beaten with a baseball bat in broad daylight, you are going to call 911 and watch?
Yes, as here in Va ccw only covers self defence which includes you your family and more in the gray area folks in your "party". Now if I should stand there and taunt said BG into attacking me then game on right wrong or indiffrent my life is now endangered. I am not the police. I stsrted a thread on this a few days back look at that for further details on my thoughts.
 
There was a similar "What would bystanders do?" scenario run in New York, with a "child abduction".

Basically, the child was coached on all the proper phrases ("You're not my daddy!", "Help, this man isn't my daddy!", etc), and placed on the sidewalk (with LOTS of camera coverage, and police unseen nearby).

The "abductor" would walk up, and try doing the "low intensity" abduction: grab arm, and start to walk away with child). The cameras filmed while numerous folks just walked by (some detouring to avoid the situation)...

when someone WOULD intervene, the "abductor" would immediately put his hands in the air, and explain the situation (followed by interviewing the good samaritan)...
 
Had something very similar happen to me about a year ago. Won free tickets to a concert in downtown Little Rock. CCW'd, of course. Wife and I were almost to the concert hall, about to cross the street, when I hear a woman's voice yelling/screaming. See her across the street, struggling with a man. But it looks like he's trying to get away from her. She keeps clinging to him, then I hear her demand "her money";). He keeps trying to pull away, looking very embarassed, since it was still daylight & 100+ ppl around. When he started to get pretty forceful about trying to pry away from her I crossed the street to around 15 yds away and waited with my gun hand resting on the front of my belt (gun behind R hip). Decided if he got more agressive/violent I would firmly command him to stand down while moving hand onto gun. Fortunately he saw me & settled down a bit. Unfortunately this just gave her more courage & she got louder & slapped him across the chest. Thankfully, about that time a LRPD car was driving by & she yelled at them for help. Wife & I went inside. Don't know if she got her $$ or a trip to jail. Sorry for the long-winded answer & not trying to hijack, but since I responded like that in a similar case, I guess I'm saying that's how I'd handle the ABC-contrived one. Where it went from there would depend on the response I got to the command/hand on gun.
 
A homeless man/woman was being assaulted by some hoodlums.

Disparity of force? Check.

The hoodlums actually had a bat (rubber) that they were using to hit the hobo.

Deadly weapon present? Check.

Deadly felonious assault in progress? Check.

Opportunity, intent, and capability all exist. Is someone being hurt? As far as you know, check.

Call 911 on cell phone, report location, description of events, my name and description, that I have a firearm and am going to intervene (gets locals there a lot quicker). Leave cell phone on so events can be recorded.

Take a position of advantage, draw weapon and loudly tell the attackers to "STOP NOW OR I WILL SHOOT!" Keep head on a pivot to look for their buddies, etc.

Wait for the cavalry, if attack continues, stop the attack (shoot).

All of the participants were actors, so there was no actual assault.

ABC was wanting to see what the response of passersby would be in this situation. There were various responses, but that is not really what I'm interested in.

Silly TV producers... is this all they can think of?

What concerned me was what would happen if someone with a gun had come to the aid of the homeless man and woman. Things could have gotten out of hand very quickly and someone could have been seriously hurt. The hoodlums actually had a bat (rubber) that they were using to hit the hobo.

I guess you can do things like this in certain parts of country. Where I live, though, these thugs would have been confronted with force. What say you?

Yep, and not just any force, they would be confronted with deadly force.
 
We have discussed this show before. It should make an interesting episode when they eventually stumble upon a CCW holder.

I doubt it would prove to be "Interesting" for the CCW holder....
 
Two similar situations happened when I was younger and not carrying, not to get off topic but they seem applicable. First situation I was about 16 or 17 and walking to a friends house when I came upon our neighborhood punks roughing up another friends little brother whom I knew personally, I grabbed a rock and lobbed it their way hitting one in the shoulder, the rest of the thugs scattered and as he was getting up, the coward I hit with the rock cussed me out and threatened to kill the kid, he was met with a boot to the mouth and never bothered us again, I got lucky. The second time a I saw a girl my age in a telephone booth getting beaten by a guy. A friend and I decided to step in and we lay down some justice on the guy, as we were dealing with him she took a board across my head and started wailing on my buddy. Apparently the guy rearranging her face was her boyfriend she was used to it, and didn't appreciate two guys who thought such things were wrong. Take these accounts for what they are worth. I now use better judement in situations...
 
The second time a I saw a girl my age in a telephone booth getting beaten by a guy. A friend and I decided to step in and we lay down some justice on the guy, as we were dealing with him she took a board across my head and started wailing on my buddy. Apparently the guy rearranging her face was her boyfriend she was used to it, and didn't appreciate two guys who thought such things were wrong. Take these accounts for what they are worth. I now use better judement in situations...

A cop friend of mine says that will happen 100% of the time in a domestic situation. No matter how bad. It's like an instinct or something.
 
Ya think anyone watching the ABC crew taping this would figure out that it was all an act? Seems a crew and video cameras would be a clue that it was't real.
 
Yes, as here in Va ccw only covers self defence which includes you your family and more in the gray area folks in your "party". Now if I should stand there and taunt said BG into attacking me then game on right wrong or indiffrent my life is now endangered. I am not the police. I stsrted a thread on this a few days back look at that for further details on my thoughts.

Eric F - would you please post your citations for such a statement? I have read case law as well as the Code of Virginia and cannot find the limitation on self defense you say exists.

In the scenario in the OP - One of the actors playing the thugs had a baseball bat and was beating the homeless-looking guy. As I understand the scenario there are at least 2 persons assaulting 1 person, and 1 of the assaulters is using a baseball bat which means using deadly force. There is no information about what if any weapons the homeless-looking guy has. For the sake of discusion I will presume that means he has none.

We have disparity of force x 2 (numbers and deadly weapon).

There is no information available to me about why the interaction is taking place, so I do not know who is the "innocent" in this situation.

In my mind, reaction depends on what is happening right now as I am witnessing the interaction. If the homeless-looking guy is being whacked with the baseball bat I'm of the mind that direct intervention is needed before I make te call to 911. My reaction would be to shout something along the lines of "Stop that!" and prepare to draw my CCW (hand on grips but not yet beginning to clear the holster). I might shout a second or third time - depends if my action stops the beating with the baseball bat or not.

Presuming my verbal intervention works, I'd reach for my cell phone with my off hand and request ambulance and police at the location, then tell dispatch why they were needed. I'd continue to watch the beaters and the homeless-looking beatee in case any of them decided to include me in the activity. I'd also try to do 360* checks to see if anybody was coming towards me from the general area of behind me. If I see anyone approaching (from any direction) I would loudly tell them that I had called for an ambulance and police because those 3 (or whatever number the total was) had been fighting and one of them was badly hurt. I'd ask the person who approached to call 911 also, and to look for the ambulance and cops to direct them to the scene. (Makes them a participant and reduces the chance they will get involved with the combatants or me.)

If verbal challenge did not stop the fray, I would have to decide if I should become involved. Common Law (and case law where I live - Virginia) says I can come to the defense of an innocent as if I were that innocent person - meaning I could use dealdy force if necessary. The problem here is I do not know who the innocent is. All I can see is one person being assaulted with deadly force by 2 or more others.

It is a sad comment on our times that a person would need to think long and hard about the possible ramifications of coming to the aid of another person who was being assaulted by deadly force before deciding to intervene or not. I can only speak for myself. If my verbal challenge and continued presence did not stop the beating with the baseball bat, I would intervene. I would be screaming at the top of my lungs as I drew, ordering the person to drop the baseball bat. I would be hoping and praying that a maniac yelling "Drop the bat! Drop the bat!" over and over would be effective, but if the bat were not on its way to the ground by the time I had reached full extension then the next sound heard from my direction would be gunfire. (Presuming I had a clear shot.)

As soon as the gunfight was over and I had scanned for any possible additional threats to me (screw the homeless-looking guy for the moment) I would be using my off hand to call 911 and say police and an abmulance were needed at <location>. I would tell the dispatcher that shots were fired and x number of people were down. I would stay on the line with the dispatcher until the police showed up. If anybody else came up, I would tell them 1) "That man <pointing to the person I had just shot> tried to kill him <pointing to the homeless-looking guy> with that baseball bat <pointing to same>." Then I would tell them to call 911 and get police and an ambulance sent. I would try to keep everybody away from the scene so as to not disturb the evidence. I might rememberr to ask somebody to write down the names of any bystanders and of anybody who came up to gawk before the cops/ambulance arrived.

I would probably keep my weapon at low ready until I heard the approach of sirens, then switch to a hold by the muzzle with both hands in the air.

My statement to the police would consist of "That man <pointing to the person I had just shot> tried to kill him <pointing to the homeless-looking guy> with that baseball bat <pointing to same>, " followed by a statement that I can't tell them anything more until after I have met with my lawyer. (Yes, I would give them all the ID they wanted - no question about that. But nothing further about what happened. If necessary, repeat "That man <pointing to the person I had just shot> tried to kill him <pointing to the homeless-looking guy> with that baseball bat <pointing to same>" until they get sick of hearing it.)

YMMV.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
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