what would you have done in this situation?

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I am so disappointed in what our society has evolved into. The responses by the majority of you are truely disgusting.
I contend that if you cannot help your fellow man, not just your loved ones, then you are unfit to carry a concealed gun.
The more I hang out here the more depressed I get. I think I will just stay over at LRH.
Goodbye.
 
If you're going to avoid intervening in a situation where your very presence could save a life this is NOT the excuse to use. It detracts from the credibility of many of your arguments. "I'm not going to get involved beyond video taping and witnessing because I'm afraid someone might retaliate" If that's the case you have no business being in this country's military service. Are you going to stay in the barracks when the rest of your unit goes on patrol because yesterday your unit was involved in a firefight with BGs and you're afraid their friends might shoot at you?
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Sure toughguy.... internet heros are a dime a dozen. Next time you deploy, in the real world (not in junior boyscout boot camp), and live in 'barracks' you let us know. I've lived in tents, patrol bases, and CHUs myself in my real world deployments.

And

I am so disappointed in what our society has evolved into. The responses by the majority of you are truely disgusting.
I contend that if you cannot help your fellow man, not just your loved ones, then you are unfit to carry a concealed gun.
Click to expand...

PPPLLLLEEEEAAASSSEEE - There are a lot of internet heros here...

WHO ARE YOU HELPING??? NOBODY HAS BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION!!!!

You are ASSUMING that your internvetion is going to SAVE a life. That's a big assumption. It could cost lives. Whose life? I dunno. Maybe your daughter's life. Maybe a strangers life. Maybe your wife's life. Maybe the lives of the firefighters called to extinsguish your enferno house that the gangbangers decided to burn. I dunno. What I do have enough smarts to know is that I don't intervene in the middle of domestic disputes or gang fights. From the description, this appeared to be possibly both.

You are also assuming a positive peaceful resolution to this matter. That is a dangerous assumption. You go out there and try to intervene - what if the men with bats turn on YOU, and view you as a sympathiser with the others? That pretty much forces your hand to kill one or several of them. Or what if the men with bats were holding off the armed attacks of the others, but your distraction allows the actual aggressors to regain the upper hand and retrieve their lost weapons and fire at you or others? Maybe the cops will be there in 1 minute. Maybe 20 minutes. Are you going to place people under citizen arrest? The fact is you have no effective plan - and people without plans in these situations get into deep and hot water fast.

The reality is that your CCW permit, or your ownership of a home defense shotgun, is not some police detective badge or permit to go chasing and arresting 'bad guys.' That's how innocent people get killed. You wanna go foray into the middle of some large domestic disturbance with a dozen folks armed with bats and whatnot, yelling "HI-HO Silver" then I'm not going to try to talk sense into you. Have fun with the results you get, none of which will be positive.

Do you think the group of gangbangers is going to thank you for saving them? Do you think the group with the bats is going to thank you for interfering? I doubt the answer will be yes to either of these. Instead both groups will probably look at you with scorn and derision.

Getting in the middle of what could very well be a gang fight is asking for a quick exit from this world. That's not cowardly, that's sensible.
 
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unlike many posters here -

I am not a lawyer
I am not a cop
I am not a sheep
I am not a sheepdog
I am not clairvoyant

based on the very limited information observed and reported by OP
a bunch of angry people are running about, threatening each other, nobody is running anyway, nobody has a gun, nobody is shooting, nobody is on the ground being beaten to death, the people being threatened by others with bats are NOT running away, nor even trying to

somebody could get seriously hurt and/or dead here
but NEITHER side shows any inclination to avoid violence
both sides look fully willing to participate in violence, nobody is running away or escape
and NONE of them are my family, nor even close friends
and I don't have the slightest clue what this is all about, or whether "he/she touched me first"

I go get his and her's 357s, and make sure the door is locked
while she dials up 911
then I hit the 911 wired alarm button, the siren/strobe light goes off (very loud)
maybe they get the idea that cops are on the way and scatter
or maybe they don't
either way I sit and watch discretely from window, the eggs get cold

if they scatter fast (which they real likely will anyway when they hear and see "cops coming"), the cops are going to have to do some work to find out who/what/where/why/how.. that is their job
but maybe the participants will scatter before somebody gets seriously hurt or dead, which I figure is a good thing

if it settles down pretty shortly thereafter, I turn off the alarm and go eat my cold eggs

we could add endless variants and s-t-r-e-t-c-h scenarios to what could happen next, but that I will leave to the clairvoyant amongst us, including what might or might not happen to vigilantes and sheepdogs who assume things that the cops will probably not assume upon arrival

given the reported outcome of the actual event described
(nobody got seriously hurt or dead), just exactly what BETTER outcome would you expect to achieve by whatever other action you might have taken

I am not a cop, and glad of it, for many reasons
one of those reasons being "domestic violence" calls
 
what would you guys have done?
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Eaten my eggs...

I have not much sympathy for punks who look like wannabe gang bangers.

If you wear the costume, expect to be treated as such imo...
 
oldfool said:
based on the very limited information observed and reported by OP
a bunch of angry people are running about, threatening each other, nobody is running anyway, nobody has a gun, nobody is shooting, nobody is on the ground being beaten to death, the people being threatened by others with bats are NOT running away, nor even trying to

somebody could get seriously hurt and/or dead here
but NEITHER side shows any inclination to avoid violence
both sides look fully willing to participate in violence, nobody is running away or escape
Click to expand...
Dead wrong, see below statement...

FMJ (Post No. 25) said:
i didn't see any actual hits with the bat, the kids were running pretty quick. they sure did try to hit them though.
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Leadcounsel: I'd quote you, but I'm not sure which hieroglyph is 'quote'

You're about a frickin kazillion percent right on the 'no plan=romeo foxtrot op' thing. Like I said, fluid situation. Prepare for all or do nothing.

I don't consider my shotgun a badge. For the most part the one I was referring to stays at the front door loaded with buckshot for dealing with feral cats, skunks, feral dogs and other large farm pests. I just don't happen to have a warren of gangbangers on my acreage, so that is a large pest I have not yet had to deal with. (here, at least...) I can just see it now. The boss shows up and says "we've got Cholos in the corn, you got your traps?" Or "There's a new hole under the dairy barn. Whole posse of Jamaicans in there. I spooked one feeding the calves."

In the end I'd do whatever I had to do. It's not a decision I can make sight-unseen. I'm not the man on the ground. That being said, anyone not smart enough to at least weigh the suggestions of someone who is paid to be shot at and return fire (leadcounsel)... well, you need to evaluate your ability to accept constructive criticism. Someone who has confronted armed people while armed themselves has a grasp of the situation that cannot be learned any other way.

I guess I didn't make it clear the bacon is served with the Tasty Eggs.
 
Lead counsel

Heroics, at least any thought out them go out your head the first time a triple set of wired 155 play bingo cage with you. What you find left is a rather grim and gritty reality, and remember some people will never be able to comprehend that it exists, and I have to laugh when someone thanks you for your service, after, expletives, over what you did on a daily basis.

It is stupid to get KILLED over butting in on something you know nothing about.

To those who wonder go read S&T, to many stories like this where the "good Samaritan" ends up badly. I'm not a cop, I'm not paid to intervene anymore, I'm not a coward

Just remember the difference between a fool and a true hero is that a fool doesn't understand what he is going into, A hero Knows and Understands, yet still goes in and does his job.

Replying to me will be mostly wasted as I said my piece and am going to enjoy my eggs.
 
Grab a bat yourself and go help the adults deal with the punks :)

Seriously, though, I can't say for sure without being in the situation, but I probably would not interfere, precisely for the reasons others already outlined. Call the cops. The camera is a good idea, although I probably wouldn't have thought of it (besides, the one most easily accessible to me is the one on my phone, which I'd be using to call 911). Be ready to retrieve weapons for self-defense if not readily available, but do not interfere. You're not a cop, but you can be a good witness.
 
post #107, Mav
dead wrong, mebbe so... (well mebbe wrong, but not dead)

"i didn't see any actual hits with the bat, the kids were running pretty quick. they sure did try to hit them though."

If they were running away, then I don't know what all the yabba jabba chest thumping is all about, nobody to be saved from certain death
I sit back down and finish my eggs, before they get cold, then go see the (other) old guy next door to find out what that was all about.

"i didn't watch the entire ordeal, but there was no amber lamps on scene, so assumably they were ok."

nope, I didn't see the entire ordeal, either
maybe you did
so... I dunno.. ongoing threat, continuing conflict, response as noted above

people running away, I will let you young tough guys go run 'em down, I ain't that quick on my feet.. but if they were tap dancing with each other long enough for LEOs to arrive on scene, the young ones being quick enough to evade, but too dumb to make distance happen, well, let 'em tap dance until the cops arrive
strikes me unlikely anybody hangin' on the scene that long was real interested in avoiding conflict
but...
I didn't see the entire ordeal
maybe you did

I am going to go eat my eggs now, the coffee is gettin' cold
enjoy the day
do no harm to yourself or others unless obliged to
 
Well at least this thread helps bring enlightenment on one thing... I can see how that lady in NY died on the streets without anyone doing anything.
 
leadcounsel said:
WHO ARE YOU HELPING??? NOBODY HAS BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION!!!!
.
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(edited for shortness)

I'll answer that directly since you havent deduced it as of yet from the other 5 pages.

Who you are helping is a person that is under attack by a group of people that have decided to take the law in their own hands rather than follow the law.

In the OP scenario, the people with the bats are laid out as the agressors.

You can "what it" this to death but if you actually stick to the OP and not "what if" difference aspects INTO the scenario to create a scenerio that fits your arguement, maybe you could make a valid point. But I guess that what lawyers often do; twist a story into it fiting the benefit of their client.

If you what to play "what if", another thread would be more appropiate.

But for now.... lets try to just stick to the OP.

You see, in the USA we have laws. We have laws upheld by due process of prosectution and penalties as defined by laws. We dont tolerate street crime nor street justice; to tolerate it is to accept it.

As a lawyer and soldier, I would have expect that you realize and support that concept.
 
You see, in the USA we have laws. We have laws upheld by due process of prosectution and penalties as defined by laws. We dont tolerate street crime nor street justice; to tolerate it is to accept it.

As a lawyer and soldier, I would have expect that you realize and support that concept.
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Oh really? We have laws. What are these mystical things you speak of...?

Thank you for stating MY point. Anyone who goes out to intervene is playing cop and is frankly unwise. I 100% support the concept. When I see violent crime in progress, I call the police and observe from a safe distance. It is unwise to get tangled in the action folks, unless you have a personal stake in the matter. When the cops show up and you're the guy waving the gun around, they have to deal with YOU which detracts from the real situation.

Where in "due process" or "prosecution" do you fall into the equation? Are you a cop? Are you a prosecutor? If the answer is NO to either of these, then you are part of the problem when you run out and 'intervene.'

In this situation, how do you know from watching that the younger group wasn't the aggressor and the adults grabed bats to protect themselves and banded together as a neighborhood watch, for instance, to stand up to the younger group?

The OP didn't say anyone was yelling "help" or "save me" etc. He described chaos and mutual combatives, and some of the group were obviously armed with bats. Are the others armed with guns, knives, etc. that you cannot see?
 
When the cops show up and you're the guy waving the gun around
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Not one person here that advocates getting involved ever mentioned running out the door waving a gun around
In this situation, how do you know from watching that the younger group wasn't the aggressor and the adults grabed bats to protect themselves and banded together as a neighborhood watch, for instance, to stand up to the younger group?

The OP didn't say anyone was yelling "help" or "save me" etc. He described chaos and mutual combatives, and some of the group were obviously armed with bats. Are the others armed with guns, knives, etc. that you cannot see?
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This is where situational awareness comes in to play. Of course it's foolish to get involved in an armed altercation where both sides have weapons (visible or not) however again I state: Not on MY watch. I say have the gf/wife/significant other call the police and videotape the event while I go out and sort things out as it's happening in front of my house. No adult has any business swinging a bat at a kid unless that kid is actively attempting to harm or kill said adult or another person.

Thank you for stating MY point. Anyone who goes out to intervene is playing cop and is frankly unwise. I 100% support the concept. When I see violent crime in progress, I call the police and observe from a safe distance. It is unwise to get tangled in the action folks, unless you have a personal stake in the matter.
...
Where in "due process" or "prosecution" do you fall into the equation? Are you a cop? Are you a prosecutor? If the answer is NO to either of these, then you are part of the problem when you run out and 'intervene.'
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Cop or not, prosecution or not, there wouldn't be laws on the books allowing the use of force (deadly or otherwise) in defense of another. You sir, lack the common decency that was so prevalent in my grandfather's day, that he and my father so carefully encouraged in me. Common decency means standing up for your fellow man, not standing by and videotaping while he's beaten with a bat. Who's to say your presence doesn't give the kids the time they need to create enough distance to end the conflict?

Let's put it in a different perspective: one of those kids is your child, or the child of a family member or neighbor. Regardless of if they did wrong initially (re: the beating of the 12 yr old) or if you know it or not, I'm willing to bet you'd be out there handling your business right? Ok, doesn't nearly every major religion preach something along the lines of "love thy brother"? It doesn't say "stand back and enjoy the show if you don't know the victims"

Every human being should have a personal stake in violence done against any other human being. Regardless of color, race, creed, gender, religion, etc; we all came from the same place in the beginning. Standing back and watching is like saying "Go ahead and off each other in record numbers... less competition for me... besides, I'm a lawyer, you people are just giving me more business"
 
in my state you can use deadly force to protect someone else's safety.
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Mine too, but I wouldn't get involved without knowing the situation 100%, like somebody shooting toddlers at Santa's Village at the mall, or an obvious holdup.

I called the cops on an upstairs neighbor who beat his woman, multiple times. Every time she denied he'd beaten her. I'm not going to get in the middle of something like that. Cops get paid for that kind of thing and have qualified immunity. I don't.
 
I would have called the cops, just in case no one else had, and then went out (with my pistol concealed of course) and video recorded what was happening.

I would tell them that the cops are on the way and they are all on candid camera!
You would be amazed at how folk's behavior changes once they know that they are being recorded.

And if they did kill the kid, the recording would be very useful in court.
And it would probably make a great Youtube vid as well!
 
Cops get paid for that kind of thing and have qualified immunity. I don't.
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Bottom line, right there. I'm not Batman.
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You don't have to be Batman just to shout out "I've called the cops!" or "I have you all on tape!"

It's not like anyone expects you to dive in and fight all the guys off the kid.
 
Seems like some folk think that it's best to visibly intervene in some way; others see too many downsides to make that path palatable. Each side has articulated their position, and each side has provided counterpoint to the other. After one hundred and twenty one posts, I don't think that anyone is going to change anyone else's mind on the topic.

Time to call this one done, ok?

Each of us gets to make the intervene/don't intervene decision when presented with a public confrontation, and until that moment in time we never really KNOW how we will react. It also goes without saying that each scenario is different, with different things visible and different things not visible, and that for each unique scenario there will be differing possible paths for intervention. The decision on how to react to the public confrontation cannot be made for us by strangers on the Internet. Each course of action has a downstream set of consequences, and each of us needs to decide which consequences we're willing to accept and which we are not.
 
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