Titan6
member
If it were DC, LA or NY this would be a non-issue. Only the criminals (and elite who would not be on the streets) have guns there. Although it might have turned into a really amusing turf war.
What would you do?
- Thread starter Stinger
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Here's one of the true life situations as told by the lawyer that taught my CCW class. He claimed it was true and I have no reason to doubt him.
Remember - Oklahoma recognizes the step into another's shoes doctrine.
It's around 2AM in the morning. Well dressed woman in an expensive car (I forget whay kind) pulls into a downtown OKC self serve gas station. This woman gets out of her car and starts pumping gas. About a minute later a piece of junk car roars into the gas station and out jump 3 guys who for all the world look like they could be enforcers for the Hell's Angels. The grab the woman who struggles, screams and throw her over the trunk of her car to restrain her.
The gas station guy on duty sees this, reasonably concludes this woman is in serious danger, grabs his gun, rushes out and draws down on the 3 guys. The next thing he knows he's got three tough guys pointing guns at him and yelling police, get down, get down. The woman hops in her car and drives away.
The 3 scumbags - undercover OKC cops.
The woman - drug dealer
The gas station attendant - doing time at McCalester State prison
Like I said before - wanna play Rambo you better be prepared to pay the piper because what you don't know will get you in serious trouble. It is entirely irrelevant that based on what you see that any judgement you make is reasonable. If you don't know all the facts and judge wrong you are risking your life to step into another's shoes.
Remember - Oklahoma recognizes the step into another's shoes doctrine.
It's around 2AM in the morning. Well dressed woman in an expensive car (I forget whay kind) pulls into a downtown OKC self serve gas station. This woman gets out of her car and starts pumping gas. About a minute later a piece of junk car roars into the gas station and out jump 3 guys who for all the world look like they could be enforcers for the Hell's Angels. The grab the woman who struggles, screams and throw her over the trunk of her car to restrain her.
The gas station guy on duty sees this, reasonably concludes this woman is in serious danger, grabs his gun, rushes out and draws down on the 3 guys. The next thing he knows he's got three tough guys pointing guns at him and yelling police, get down, get down. The woman hops in her car and drives away.
The 3 scumbags - undercover OKC cops.
The woman - drug dealer
The gas station attendant - doing time at McCalester State prison
Like I said before - wanna play Rambo you better be prepared to pay the piper because what you don't know will get you in serious trouble. It is entirely irrelevant that based on what you see that any judgement you make is reasonable. If you don't know all the facts and judge wrong you are risking your life to step into another's shoes.
sacp81170a
Member
I can't help but assign this little story to the "iffy" pile. I fail to see how the 1) "drug dealer" was able to get away if there were 3 undercover officers there, 2) what crime the gas station attendant was charged with and 3) how "reasonably concluding this woman was in serious danger" earns you time in McCalester absent a whole bunch of other circumstances. I've seen first hand(working in the court system and law enforcement) how hard it is to earn a trip to a State penitentiary and I'd almost guarantee it doesn't happen on a first offense. I think an instructor is pulling some legs to emphasize a point.
Strings
Member
You can also play "what if?" games from now 'till doomsday...
This is a case where each individual has to make the decision, and each person is going to be "right", because they're deciding FOR THEMSELVES what THEY are willing to risk.
Kinda personal note: as a BACA member, *I* made the decision to be willing to step into harm's way to protect an abused child. Might mean serious risk of injury/death/jail time. This was the right decision for ME. Others may come to different conclusions for THEMSELVES.
Of course, just because the choice you make might be "right" for you, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct under the law. But if you're going to live in a way to avoid any possibility of legal trouble, you probably aren't going to be doing much in life (or having much fun)...
This is a case where each individual has to make the decision, and each person is going to be "right", because they're deciding FOR THEMSELVES what THEY are willing to risk.
Kinda personal note: as a BACA member, *I* made the decision to be willing to step into harm's way to protect an abused child. Might mean serious risk of injury/death/jail time. This was the right decision for ME. Others may come to different conclusions for THEMSELVES.
Of course, just because the choice you make might be "right" for you, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct under the law. But if you're going to live in a way to avoid any possibility of legal trouble, you probably aren't going to be doing much in life (or having much fun)...
American_Pit_Bull
Member
"iffy" is being generous... I would toss it into the BS pile...
I agree on the BS call.
There should have been all sorts of yelling "police, get down, get down" when they first grabbed the woman, which would have prevented the gas station guy from reasonably concluding this woman is in serious danger, grabbing his gun, rusheing out and drawing down on the 3 guys.
Also raining the BS meter reading is the woman getting back in her car and driving away in the confusion. Unless the gas station guy was a real sprinter, she should have been in cuffs by the time he arrived.
I'm saying there has to be more to the story for the gas station guy to end up in prison, even if he stepped into the middle of an undercover bust in progress.
stay safe.
skidmark
There should have been all sorts of yelling "police, get down, get down" when they first grabbed the woman, which would have prevented the gas station guy from reasonably concluding this woman is in serious danger, grabbing his gun, rusheing out and drawing down on the 3 guys.
Also raining the BS meter reading is the woman getting back in her car and driving away in the confusion. Unless the gas station guy was a real sprinter, she should have been in cuffs by the time he arrived.
I'm saying there has to be more to the story for the gas station guy to end up in prison, even if he stepped into the middle of an undercover bust in progress.
stay safe.
skidmark
bogie
Member
Any of y'all who said "those folks would be in a world of hurt, because I'd be shooting them" are going to jail. Do not pass go.
CCW does not mean "shoot the threatening person." It means "get a grip on the situation, and if deadly force is the ONLY means that will stop it, then that's that."
Yell, whatever. If the folks turn toward you, and advance, then draw and scream something at 'em. If they don't scatter, and keep coming after you, shoot the SOB with the bat first.
But you have to basically give 'em a chance to get outta dodge, or you're gonna be in the pokey.
CCW does not mean "shoot the threatening person." It means "get a grip on the situation, and if deadly force is the ONLY means that will stop it, then that's that."
Yell, whatever. If the folks turn toward you, and advance, then draw and scream something at 'em. If they don't scatter, and keep coming after you, shoot the SOB with the bat first.
But you have to basically give 'em a chance to get outta dodge, or you're gonna be in the pokey.
NASCAR_MAN
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Seems like a lot of people are making excuses not to stop violence. I mean, god help them should they risk anything.
bogie
Member
But you do NOT escalate the violence to deadly force. And if you can stop it by yelling that you're calling the police, that's fine.
Some of you "shoot first, and clean up the mess later" folks need to realize something: If you see a maniac waving a machete around, holding a screaming damsel by her hair, and threatening to start playing ginsu on her, if you just draw and shoot his sorry butt, you're likely to run up some MAJOR legal bills. And more if his mommy thinks that he was a good boy.
END the situation. That's the bottom line. And if you can end it WITHOUT paying a bunch of lawyers, that's the best situation.
Some of you "shoot first, and clean up the mess later" folks need to realize something: If you see a maniac waving a machete around, holding a screaming damsel by her hair, and threatening to start playing ginsu on her, if you just draw and shoot his sorry butt, you're likely to run up some MAJOR legal bills. And more if his mommy thinks that he was a good boy.
END the situation. That's the bottom line. And if you can end it WITHOUT paying a bunch of lawyers, that's the best situation.
bloodedsky
member
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- Oct 18, 2007
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I'd still have done what the gas station attendant did. The chances that she was actually the Bad Girl and they, the Good Guys, were slim.
I sent several emails to vcdl and also have had more than 1 ccw "instructor" tell me this. As far as written law or case study I do not have one to give you. However if vcdl and the one instructor who I do know and trust as he is a LEO who is going to colledge to be a lawyer specializing in gun/ccw area tell me that it is a questionable event than I take their word at face value. Please remember that you can still help and shooting folks is not the end all in defense of yourself and others.
I will send out a few emails tonight and see what I can get back as far as why I was told this information.
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