What would you do?

[mugsie]

I was listening to the TV this morning before leaving for work. I live in PA about 45 miles or so north and east of Philly. Apparently there was some joker in Philly asking people for help with an ATM or something like that. Of course some people stopped to help, and when they did he would inform them he had a gun, then proceed to take their money. He kept his hand in his pocket. There were also no other people around obviously.

Now - I carry and I'm wondering - what would I do? If I shoot the guy, and he doesn't have a gun, I'm screwed. If I don't shoot the guy and he does, I'm screwed. If I shoot him, he dies or doesn't die, it's my word against his. I can see it now - officer, I was standing here when this guy (me) with a gun comes up, demands my money and shoots me. I'm screwed.

I can see no way out of this if he's not brandishing. Any ideas? What would you do?

 

[Leanwolf]

MUGSIE - " I can see no way out of this if he's not brandishing. "

Well, hypothetical question and hypothetical answer.

Given the scenario you posted... if the dude has his hand in his pocket, long odds are I can run away before he can draw and shoot accurately. That is supposing he actually has a handgun.

That's what I'd do, and when safe, call the police.

L.W.

 

[edSky]

judging by your name, Leanwolf, you are probably not like me. Over fifty and over weight. I can probably run a bit, but not a lot.

Then again, he probably wouldn't want to chase me, would he? I've wondered the same thing, and what to do in that situation.

I guess if someone is going to play that game he's going to risk getting himself killed. I can't imagine the perp living to a ripe old age if this is what he does for a living.

 

[expvideo]

Not showing the gun is proving the point that he's not going to use it. Shooting you will attract attention. If he wanted attention, he wouldn't be hiding the gun.

That and I would be willing to bet that 9 times out of 10, there is no gun. I'd be willing to bet my life on it. If someone tells me that they have a gun, and doesn't show it to me, that's too bad for him. Because I don't mind "brandishing" mine. I don't even mind using mine either. If you tell me that you have a gun and try to rob me, that was a really poor decision on your part. You have about 1.5 seconds from the time my hand starts moving to the time the trigger is pulled. That's all the time you're going to get to convince me that you don't have a gun and you don't want me to shoot you.

If he has the gun in his right pocket, he can only shoot to the left and somewhat in front of him. Move to his right while you draw.

I am willing to bet my life that I can shoot him before he shoots me. I am not willing to give him my money, because he is a criminal and I am an honest man. An honest man has no business giving criminals his money. A criminal that threatens my life is going to be shot. That is all there is to it. I would MUCH rather be arrested and have to pay for a lawyer than to be killed.

Besides, if you are carrying, you're probably smart enough to know that this is a setup, or at least to go into condition yellow as soon as this guy starts talking to you.

 

[the muleskinner]

How big a boy r-ya? I personally would go with the old sucker punch. Right in the teeth. 98% chance the guy is a drug addict. If he ever had a gun, he sold it for a fix.

That said you never know what you would do until it happens. All you can do is be prepared.

 

[expvideo]

Here's another idea. Put your PIN in and let him take control of the ATM. Once he does, hold him at gunpoint and call the police. Make sure you can see his hands. This is one of the few situations where you can comply with the robber and stop him in the act of robbing you.

 

[moooose102]

Hollar like crazy to attract peoples attention. Using this time as he panics to ready your weapon in case he does actually draw. If he does show he has a pistol, and you are ready, you should be able to get the drop on him. If he doesnt, you can simply walk away.

 

[mcdonl]

"If he has the gun in his right pocket, he can only shoot to the left and somewhat in front of him. Move to his right while you draw."

Good info...

 

[poor_richard]

Apparently there was some joker in Philly asking people for help with an ATM or something like that. Of course some people stopped to help,...

Don't stop to help.

Really, How many people truly need help operating a ATM machine in this day and age. Being a good Samaritan is one thing, but don't let other people make their problems yours.

 

[Kat144]

I had understood that if someone ordered you to give them your money, you had to--self-defense was not an option unless you honestly thought they would hurt you even if you handed over the cash (and obviously refusal would not be an option because if you refused and they did whip out a gun and you defended yourself, your self-defense would be thrown out in court because you didn't do everything to prevent violence, i.e. giving in to the guy). I don't think it's right, but that's the impression I'd gotten from various things I've read.

 

[Leanwolf]

KAT144 - " I had understood that if someone ordered you to give them your money, you had to--self-defense was not an option unless you honestly thought they would hurt you even if you handed over the cash (and obviously refusal would not be an option because if you refused and they did whip out a gun and you defended yourself, your self-defense would be thrown out in court because you didn't do everything to prevent violence, i.e. giving in to the guy). I don't think it's right, but that's the impression I'd gotten from various things I've read."

Kat144, nothing like that is written into law in any State with which I am familiar. Are you thinking about England??

L.W.

 

[mpmarty]

Kat, armed robbery even implying you are armed while committing a robbery is a felony. Shooting a perp committing a felony is justifiable homicide where I come from. Where are you, England? Australia?

 

[mpmarty]

Facing a perp with his right hand in his pocket claiming to be armed, step to your right and into him, grab his left elbow with your left hand and rotate him away from you as you stuff your pistol in his left ear. If he pulls a gun, pull the trigger. If he doesn't come out with a gun or a knife, spread him out on the sidewalk and whistle for someone to call 911

 

[Carl Levitian]

Start gasping like I can't breath, grasp my chest with my left hand like I'm having a heart attack, stagger back to give myself room. Then if he's not running away by then, swing my blackthorn like I'm trying to take his head off at the neck. If he hasn't showed a gun, chances are he dosen't have one. If he does, the last thing he wants is a scene. So make one.

"You have a gun? (in loud shocked voice) Oh God, don't shoot me, ahhh my heart!" stagger artisticly at this point. Then swing, batter!

Sorry, guns aren't an option in Maryalnd. If my stick won't do, its time to be creative. Create a little moment of shock and discombobulation on his end, disrupting his plan.

 

[Todd A]

Apparently there was some joker in Philly asking people for help with an ATM or something like that.

As has been said....Don't stop and help.Problem solved.

It is an interveiw. I am not going to put myself in a bad situation.Awareness and avoidence come first. Then my self defense items.

Besides I do not look like or carry myself as a "helpfull" person. I doubt he would have asked me .

 

[Bubba613]

If someone says he has a gun and is threatening you, you shoot him. I don't see what the issue here is. The fact that he isn't displaying one is irrelevant. He says he has one. He says he's going to use it if you don't comply. He has the means to do so. Is there any reason to think he won't?

We had a case here where someone was sticking up pizza delivery guys with a BB gun that looked like an actual gun. Cops pulled a stake out. He's dead now.

 

[mljdeckard]

MPMarty, couple of problems. There's a big difference between reality and what you can talk a jury into. If you and he were alone, and you kill him, and there is no gun, alleged or otherwise, you are now in the position where you better hope that the D.A. and jury will believe you.

And I'm not ever going to willingly get close enough to a bad guy to start breaking his bones and stuff. THAT'S WHY I HAVE A GUN, so I don't have to get close enough for him to be able to do the same to ME.

I agree with the 'keep on walking' philosophy. Keep your eyes on him, but don't stop.

 

[Kat144]

From the UseOfForce site:

Does the Preclusion standard mean that an ultimatum like “give me your money or I’ll hurt you” requires you to, well, give him your money? Unless you honestly believe that he may hurt you anyway, yes. The law values “life and limb” above property. Or you can refuse, but you may not respond with a fist. He’s giving you a choice, which, by definition, means that you still have options other than force.
That sounds to me like it's saying "the gun stays in your pants, the wallet doesn't, tough cookies."

 

[Grey_Mana]

Pennsylvania has reasonable laws, but I believe Philadelphia doesn't allow concealed carry by mere mortals. If you shoot him and he was faking about the gun, he gets probation (for aggravated panhandling) and you do time.

 

[msb45]

Philly

If you have a LTCF (License to Carry Firearms) issued by a Sheriff in PA you're good to go with concealed (open also in theory) carry in Philly.

PA is not like New York.

 

[mcwjr13]

This scenario is exactly why I don't use outdoor ATM's. I use a bank that has a location near my home inside of a grocery store. There are too many witnesses for some "joker to try this.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Pennsylvania has reasonable laws, but I believe Philadelphia doesn't allow concealed carry by mere mortals. If you shoot him and he was faking about the gun, he gets probation (for aggravated panhandling) and you do time.

Philadelphia used to deny licenses to it's city residents. PA strengthened the laws nearly 20 years ago and made the entire state, including Philly, shall issue.

The comment about going to jail isn't accurate, either. The law will apply a reasonable man standard, and the shooter will have to persuade the judge and jury that he had reason to believe he was in fear for his life. The absence of a gun makes that harder to prove, but it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

mugsie,

The way to deal with situations like that is to use your head. Avoid the trap. Don't force yourself to think about what you'll have to do once you're in it. Train your mind to recognize danger and learn ways to avoid it.

These are thinking problems, not shooting problems.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

keep alert and play it to win.

 

[rainbowbob]

Don't stop to help.

Poor richard beat me to it. As Todd A said...it's an interview - take a pass.

 

[Sixtigers]

Probably not a popular answer, but given the situation (and I might stop...I'm built that way--I like to help), I'd let him take the maximum amount of money I could take out of the ATM, about $500 in my case. I'd give him the card and the PIN too, if he wants it. If I judge the guy will let me go if I give him the money, I figure it's cheaper than other options. I won't be giving up my wallet for any reason...don't want to have to worry about this guy coming around later.

$500 is a hell of a lot cheaper than court/legal defense, and frankly? I'm not going to waste the huge amount of money it would cost to clear my name later.

I'm not giving him a pass so much because I'm a humanitarian (scum is scum), but I'm not going to hurt my family (more: I'd definitely feel a loss of $500) any more than I have to do dealing with that jerk.

Yeah, I carry.