I don't mean to hate on the Mosin, but I've heard it's maybe the least desirable gun feature wise of the World Wars era. Soviets were fans of cost cutting back then, although didn't stop the PPSh from being a great gun.
What's a fair price for a *nice* WW2 rifle?
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bangswitch
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Oh, I don't disagree it's sort of a "meh" rifle. I got the "full kit" when I got mine, spike bayonet, woven sling with leather keepers, ammo pouch and cleaning kit, and paid less than $300 for it. Part of the appeal is that if you're into collecting US service rifles, it does qualify as one, more accurately and valuable if you can find one of the Winchester made ones, but then you're looking at a true 1891 version and not a 91/30. As many as are out there of the 91/30's, you can be selective for condition and/or the armory that made them, and look for an early receiver date. I found a nice example, one of a crate of rifles that were cherry-picked by a LGS owner who is very knowledgeable about foreign firearms (he was an armorer in the USASF). It's a 1932 dated receiver, which makes it pre-WWII, and is a hex-receiver Tula armory rifle. Collecting Mosins is as much about their history as it is about a rifle you can shoot. Mine's not what I'd call a tack-driver by any stretch, but I can get 1-1/2 to 2 MOA groups at 100 yards consistently, with whatever ammo I can find. I don't shoot it enough to warrant reloading for it and much of the factory ammo you find uses Berdan primers anyway. I'd love to find a M44 carbine to go with mine.
DeepSouth
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https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/m1-garand/
If you’re wanting a WW2 rifle, and you’re an American, you probably want (or will eventually want) a Garand. You can’t go wrong with a Garand from the CMP.
Edit to add: if you want a nice one, as in no dings and scratches new barrel, you’ll want to look at the
RM1SPECIAL
CMP Special (.30-06) M1 Garand. This is a completely refurbished rifle consisting of an original M1 Garand Springfield or HRA receiver, new production Criterion barrel, new production American Walnut stock and handguards, and new web sling. Receiver and most other parts are refinished USGI, but some parts may be new manufacture.
Receiver may have pitting.
$1050
Free Shipping
If you’re wanting a WW2 rifle, and you’re an American, you probably want (or will eventually want) a Garand. You can’t go wrong with a Garand from the CMP.
Edit to add: if you want a nice one, as in no dings and scratches new barrel, you’ll want to look at the
RM1SPECIAL
CMP Special (.30-06) M1 Garand. This is a completely refurbished rifle consisting of an original M1 Garand Springfield or HRA receiver, new production Criterion barrel, new production American Walnut stock and handguards, and new web sling. Receiver and most other parts are refinished USGI, but some parts may be new manufacture.
Receiver may have pitting.
$1050
Free Shipping
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Old Stumpy
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I don't know where you might seek a "WW2" rifle in lightly used condition, but I can suggest one to look for.
It's not actually one produced between 1939 and 1945, but it is the same model.
This would be the aforementioned 1944 Mosin Nagant carbine with the folding cruciform toad sticker.
In the 1980s I recall, I purchased a Polish-made example of one of these that had been made in the early 1950s, packed in cosmoline, and never issued or handled.
They were new and made to commercial peace-time standards of blueing, fit, and finish.
No comparison to Russian made examples at all.
Although they had light colored hard beech stocks, they were beautiful.
Best of all, I shot a 2" group at 100 yards with the factory irons and Soviet ammo.
Some of these are probably still floating around in nearly the same condition.
Old Stumpy
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I owned an Ishapore full-to-rebuild Mk. III that had originally been made by Lithgow, along with the long bayonet and sling, back in the 1980s. With a new barrel it shot like a new rifle.
Literally the best Lee Enfield that I ever owned.
Back then such rifles were a bargain at the local LGS that sold military surplus guns.
You have no idea how much cheaper that this stuff was in the 1970s and 1980s.
Corpral_Agarn
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Got my 308 Garand for around 1k
Mosin Bubba
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My recommendations, from first to worst. This is just as far as shooting - it's tough to find any of these in better than "nicks and dings" condition, and IMO you don't want better than nicks and dings condition if you plan on shooting it. Anyway, here it goes.
IMO, Mausers are about the sweet spot these days for price + quality, and there's so many different sources for them that it's not hard to find one that isn't wrecked. The action is still the gold standard for reliability and the 3 position flag safety is awesome. Ammo is the only sticking point - 8mm surplus has dried up. The factory ammo is expensive and is rarely found outside of really well-stocked gun shops. It's something you'd want to buy a case of off the Internet.
Enfirlds are nice too, and the ammo is more affordable than you think if you're fine with Wolf (ie, your range doesn't prohibit bimetal jacketed bullets or anything). The bolts are smooth and the recoil isn't bad at all - 303 is a softer shooter than the other 30 cal service cartridges of the day. You will need to order ammo online though - like with 8mm Mauser, finding ammo in stores is difficult and it's invariably expensive when you do.
Mosins suck and always have sucked, the build quality of pry 90% of the ones you'll see on the market these days is a step below the other western powers' rifles. They can be done well (ie Finn Mosin), but most weren't. They were fun to mess with while they were cheap (see my username), but the problem is they're not cheap any more. Ammo is the big plus with them - I see Tula x54R for $11/20 every time I stop by Wally World - but I wince every time I see a run of the mill 91/30 selling for $320.
The Garand and the M1 Carbine are fun and well-built, but their semi-automatic actions allowed them to soldier on for another 10 or 20 years after the Mausers and Enfields of the world got their cosmoline baths. Most of the ones floating around today are pretty darn well-used, and the prices have gone way up. $1200 for a ratty Carbine is becoming more common.
Never shot an Arisaka so no comment there. I see a lot of spoterized ones kicking around gun shows for like $200, but few in military dress.
Carcanos suck. 6.5 Carcano can be found, but 7.65 Carcano carbine ammo is pretty much unobtanium. They're cheap, but you want to avoid them.
I don't think I've ever even seen a MAS-36 in the flesh.
IMO, Mausers are about the sweet spot these days for price + quality, and there's so many different sources for them that it's not hard to find one that isn't wrecked. The action is still the gold standard for reliability and the 3 position flag safety is awesome. Ammo is the only sticking point - 8mm surplus has dried up. The factory ammo is expensive and is rarely found outside of really well-stocked gun shops. It's something you'd want to buy a case of off the Internet.
Enfirlds are nice too, and the ammo is more affordable than you think if you're fine with Wolf (ie, your range doesn't prohibit bimetal jacketed bullets or anything). The bolts are smooth and the recoil isn't bad at all - 303 is a softer shooter than the other 30 cal service cartridges of the day. You will need to order ammo online though - like with 8mm Mauser, finding ammo in stores is difficult and it's invariably expensive when you do.
Mosins suck and always have sucked, the build quality of pry 90% of the ones you'll see on the market these days is a step below the other western powers' rifles. They can be done well (ie Finn Mosin), but most weren't. They were fun to mess with while they were cheap (see my username), but the problem is they're not cheap any more. Ammo is the big plus with them - I see Tula x54R for $11/20 every time I stop by Wally World - but I wince every time I see a run of the mill 91/30 selling for $320.
The Garand and the M1 Carbine are fun and well-built, but their semi-automatic actions allowed them to soldier on for another 10 or 20 years after the Mausers and Enfields of the world got their cosmoline baths. Most of the ones floating around today are pretty darn well-used, and the prices have gone way up. $1200 for a ratty Carbine is becoming more common.
Never shot an Arisaka so no comment there. I see a lot of spoterized ones kicking around gun shows for like $200, but few in military dress.
Carcanos suck. 6.5 Carcano can be found, but 7.65 Carcano carbine ammo is pretty much unobtanium. They're cheap, but you want to avoid them.
I don't think I've ever even seen a MAS-36 in the flesh.
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Winchester did not make them Remington and Westinghouse are the two us makers of the russian rifles. These are the only two "issued" to americans. In an early example of "too big to fail" uncle sam bought what the russians would not pay for. Slap in a photo of the mark on mine. The one I own is a Westinghouse.
bangswitch
Member
Thanks for that correction. I knew it started with a "W", and it's been a long time since I'd read up on that. As for the issue, I didn't know they'd actually been issued to anyone. I was under the impression that they were just used for training, and never saw wartime use by the US.
I'd like to see more pics of yours. Does the receiver look like the ones made by Tula, or by Izhevsk? How long have you had yours, and I suppose you searched for one of the US-made rifles?
The only thing I will say is none of them "suck", and anyone that says such has very limited experience working with said rifles that they say do "suck".
I will say they are what they are. And given them in (a key word here people) good condition (at a minimum) they are all just fine. I personally like Carcano quite a bit, and own a few of them....I can say the ones that I have seen that I would call "good" I can count on one hand with fingers left over. Does anyone remember how everyone bought a "cheap" mosin to cut up and do this that or the other to....well that was carcano about 30 years before....only add in mix matched bolts to the mix. The "good" guns that are carcano are few and far between, and when you get one it will change your thought on the rifle all the way around. Same with mosin, most have lived very hard lives. That 'merican pictured above cycles like no other mosin I own....if you think it is because it is an american your bias is showing, do you really think they would build rifles that are not interchangeable with every other mosin out there....nope the innerds are all the same....it is just not used and abused like a great many of them out there....no sticky bolt, no rubbery bolt, a nice and crisp action...it just works like it should.
I am so sick of this BS of if it is not german or american it is garbage.....move forward a few years and we can now add British in there, after all Savage did make a bunch of british rifles.....forward a few more years and Japanese rifles are not blowing up anymore, and some say that the 7.7 is one of the strongest Mauser actions out there....who would a' thunk it. MAS is still going to be trash for a while longer as most people only know what some youtube idiot said about them not shooting well, and worn out russian and itialian rifles are going to be garbage for a long time to come as so many just flat wore out examples are out there and not many will ever know what a gun in good shape should feel like.
But it is the internet we need to keep the mis-information going don't we.
I will say they are what they are. And given them in (a key word here people) good condition (at a minimum) they are all just fine. I personally like Carcano quite a bit, and own a few of them....I can say the ones that I have seen that I would call "good" I can count on one hand with fingers left over. Does anyone remember how everyone bought a "cheap" mosin to cut up and do this that or the other to....well that was carcano about 30 years before....only add in mix matched bolts to the mix. The "good" guns that are carcano are few and far between, and when you get one it will change your thought on the rifle all the way around. Same with mosin, most have lived very hard lives. That 'merican pictured above cycles like no other mosin I own....if you think it is because it is an american your bias is showing, do you really think they would build rifles that are not interchangeable with every other mosin out there....nope the innerds are all the same....it is just not used and abused like a great many of them out there....no sticky bolt, no rubbery bolt, a nice and crisp action...it just works like it should.
I am so sick of this BS of if it is not german or american it is garbage.....move forward a few years and we can now add British in there, after all Savage did make a bunch of british rifles.....forward a few more years and Japanese rifles are not blowing up anymore, and some say that the 7.7 is one of the strongest Mauser actions out there....who would a' thunk it. MAS is still going to be trash for a while longer as most people only know what some youtube idiot said about them not shooting well, and worn out russian and itialian rifles are going to be garbage for a long time to come as so many just flat wore out examples are out there and not many will ever know what a gun in good shape should feel like.
But it is the internet we need to keep the mis-information going don't we.
GunnyUSMC
Member
I’m so glad that I bought so many when I did.
Now days the prices are crazy.
Your best bet is to search pawn and gun shops.
You also have to remember that most pretty surplus guns have been refinished by someone.
You can always clean up a dirty rifle without refinishing it.
Here’s a VZ24 that I cleaned up last year before I gave it away.
Now days the prices are crazy.
Your best bet is to search pawn and gun shops.
You also have to remember that most pretty surplus guns have been refinished by someone.
You can always clean up a dirty rifle without refinishing it.
Here’s a VZ24 that I cleaned up last year before I gave it away.
Mosin Bubba
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I mean, if almost every Carcano you see is "not good", then what does that make them...
And if there is a bolt action rifle out there anywhere - milsurp or commercial - with a consistently worse trigger and consistently worse accuracy than round-receiver Mosins, I've personally never seen them. Even the pre-war hex ones aren't great either.
The design is workable; if you were to take the blueprints for a Mosin and machine one out to competition-rifle specs and tolerances, I bet it would shoot MOA easily. The Finns did something similar, hand-fitting and shimming their rifles to squeeze out pretty good accuracy. But the vast majority of Mosins (especially the ones left today) weren't built with that kind of care. They're poorly made, well-used, shoot terribly, and kick like mules... the only way to sum it up is to say they suck. They're fun sow's-ears to try and make purses with though.
I think the best way to put it is that good Mosins are rare, while bad Mosins are very common. In my experience, bad Mausers are rare and good ones are common. Turks are usually seen as the bottom rung of the Mauser ladder, and I bought one sight-unseen from Shotgun News that was warped seemingly by water damage to the point where I couldn't take out the buttplate screws. It still outshoots all 3 of my Mosins.
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GunnyUSMC
Member
There are nice Carcanos out there. I have nine of them. Ammo is the problem. The new stuff is known to have undersized bullets.
You also have to understand that most of the Mosins out there are refurbished rifles that were put together from cleaned up parts and then stored away.
There’s a lot of deference in a non refurbished rifle. Most are not as pretty but their actions are smooth.
There are also the 24/47 Mausers. They can be found at good prices and make good shooters.
You also have to understand that most of the Mosins out there are refurbished rifles that were put together from cleaned up parts and then stored away.
There’s a lot of deference in a non refurbished rifle. Most are not as pretty but their actions are smooth.
There are also the 24/47 Mausers. They can be found at good prices and make good shooters.
Have you ever tried loading 6.5 carcano with Hornady's boolit....I kid you not, the first 5 rounds I made went from minute of basket ball to minute of softball. That changed my outlook on the rifles all the way around. I went into them thinking I know Italy would not send their boys out with something this horrid....and turns out they did not. Norma makes runs of brass from time to time, you just have to look for it. As far as I know Hornady are the only folk that make a bullet for Carcano, bottle nose and all, carcano never got the pointy bullet.
What some people just can't get through their thick skulls are that with the mosin the rifle was packed away being something that would go bang....and how it was packed away by Olga wondering if her husbands head was being turned into a lamp shade by Stalin has a great deal to do with just how well that gun stood the test of time packed away in a box at the back of a dusty warehouse somewhere where the temps never get above 0F and is a land of the midnight sun.
It goes back to what I said you can not judge all by bad examples.
GunnyUSMC
Member
Never said the Carcano was a bad rifle, it’s the ammo that is offered today.
Most Carcano rifles are pretty plane and not much to write home about, in the looks department. But they do function and shoot good with the right reloads.
I’ve been giving thought to selling my Carcanos except for my 1917 TS Carbine.
Did not intend that entire post to you....just the part of trying a correctly sized bullet with a nice slow powder. While it still might not be something to write home about, it will without any shadow of doubt change the way you think about the rifle.
It really has gone from one of those things that I never shoot to something I grab more often....likely because it is different, but it also shoots on par with any other service rifle of the time frame.
It is one of the reasons I wanted to shoot BP in my trapdoor......I want to the best of modern ability see what it was like to shoot these guns at the time they are issued. Was a martini a better system over the trapdoor....things like that. And shooting a carcano in good working order with correct spec ammo is one of those things that can give you a quick look into just how those guns really worked....and you don't rely on some internet idiot that said they suck for your misinformation.
I will see if I have photos handy of my last one....came out of a small museum that had to close its doors, it is made up like a LHO rifle and without a doubt the best Carcano I have laid fingers on.
GunnyUSMC
Member
The Carcano is a good rifle and can still be found at a good price, but only a good buy if you plan to hand load for it.
For 6.5 .268 bullets are needed. For 7.35 .300 bullets are needed.
But if you’re not into reloading, the Carcano would not be the best choice for a shooter.
For 6.5 .268 bullets are needed. For 7.35 .300 bullets are needed.
But if you’re not into reloading, the Carcano would not be the best choice for a shooter.
theotherwaldo
Member
You don't have to tell me that the 7.35 Carcanos can be accurate - I'm living evidence.
There were entire months that the only meat that I got to eat as a child was squirrel that Dad had barked with that old clunker.
Dad wasn't much of a provider, but he sure could shoot.
There were entire months that the only meat that I got to eat as a child was squirrel that Dad had barked with that old clunker.
Dad wasn't much of a provider, but he sure could shoot.
Old Stumpy
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The Polish made Mosins were this accurate. They were probably among the last made and many were never issued. As I mentioned in my previous post, the 1944 carbine that I had was made in the early 1950s and I was able to shoot 2" groups with it off the bench. I was a young man then in the 80s' and my eyes and coordination were very good.
The one that I owned was from a bunch of never-issued rifles made to commercial standards of blueing, fit, and finish. They languished in cosmoline, and were obviously stored in a heated warehouse for 30 years before being surplussed.
I've also thought of getting WW2 rifle just because. The more I think about it, I would not be likely to shoot a good collectible very much and if I did get an M1 Carbine, it would probably be one of the better reproductions available today. Then I could freely shoot the snot out of it and not have any concern. A real one in decent condition, I'd probably shoot it every 5 years, and take it out and hold it once a year to oil it and check it over, then back into lock up.
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