What's my TIME worth, loading? (Monetizing your time at your press)

[LiveLife]

Not sure if the "quality" of ammunition was addressed/factored in the calculation.

When I started match shooting, I shot factory ammunition. I compared different factory loads and settled with S&B and PMC for a balance of accuracy vs cost.

I started reloading to not just realize a cost savings but for more accurate loads. My shot groups shrank about half with good match grade reloads using Montana Gold jacketed bullets (and my current match grade reloads are shooting more accurate than all the factory loads I have shot). If you compete, your monetized cost savings should factor in match grade ammunition and not cheap factory target/plinking load costs.

I get the smallest shot groups with my 20" HBAR using Black Hills ammo but have you priced them lately? Even the blue box reloaded Black Hills ammo is expensive! With my reloads, I can come close enough in accuracy for match shooting with substantial cost savings.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Quality of ammo enters, but not in the calculation

The quality of the ammo is not one of the dollar costs in the arithmetic. But it can be accounted for by adjusting the price level of the comparable commercial ammo.

What price would be charged for commercially loaded ammo that matches the quality of your handloads? You are going to have to estimate here, but be honest/realistic with yourself.

The "substantial cost savings" you mention... That is the point of this thread.

Lost Sheep

 

[BADUNAME37]

I also look at reloading as part of my overall shooting pleasure/experience.

I also want to thank the OP for making it clear that, the more you load, the more you save. It made me realize that over the 30 or so years I have been reloading, I have really saved a lot of money over store-bought ammo, and the majority (99%) of those loads are premium loads, loaded for accuracy, handgun-hunting big game, etc.

 

[Lost Sheep]

As for current ammo, I have no idea - I have bought factory metallic in a decade

Sorry, I cannot make a meaningful calculation without your cost of commercially loaded ammo (if indeed, any of this is meaningful in the first place).

Lost Sheep

 

[EddieNFL]

Add time ordering and getting components.

Add setup and cleanup time. R&D.

Add the "cost" of an extra room in the house for the workbench and storage. That extra 100 square feet that you pay rent/mortgage - space isn't free. If you otherwise need a 3 bedroom house, you'll need a forth or turn a room into a gun loading room. Factor in an extra 10% onto your monthly mortgage/rent would be a fair estimate for a reasonable reloading area.

If you enjoy it do it... heck I am getting paid nothing to sit here on the computer...

...and the shop I had built, electricity for the lights and A/C (dehumidifier when I'm away), the laptop and stereo I use while loading....and if I assign the same value to my time as I earn at work I should stop now while I can still afford to eat.

 

[ranger335v]

Unless I'm ignoring some profit making activity then my other time is only worth what I do with it. So, if I'm not neglicting my paid work I can freely take vacations, day trips, have dinner out with my wife, go to church or a movie or reload/shoot, hunt, fish, read and cruise the 'net on my computer without consideration of what the time value might be if I were actually working when I'm not. ??

 

[Lost Sheep]

Lost Sheep,

Oops, I knew I forgot something!

Commercial ammo would be around $22-$23 bucks per 50. This is for .45 ACP.
Reloaded cases are so far at about 6-7 ( and counting of course )

Josh45
>>> 0 Cost of the loading tools
>>> 150 Bullets (per thousand)
>>> 35 Primers (per thousand)
>>> 20 Powder (per lb)
>>> 4.4 load (grains per round)
>>> 0.0% spillage/shrinkage (I guess at 3% unless specified otherwise)
>>> 0 Brass (per hundred)
>>> 1 # of times each case is used (account for loss in this estimate. Free brass, this number is irrelevant.)

>>> 10 Time required to load 1000 rounds. Include EVERYTHING. Picking up, cleaning, sorting, inspecting, filling primer tubes, etc.
>>> 0 Initial time learning to load

9.88 (Calculated) Cost per increment loaded
0.20 (Calculated) Cost per round

>>> 22.5 Cost per box for purchased ammuntion
>>> 50 Rounds per box referred to above

Your "Wage" to load is $25.24, no matter how many you load. Your round count does not affect your "earnings" because there is no initial dollar amount invested (fixed cost) to be amortized.

Lost Sheep

 

[jim243]

Lost Sheep, I know it is getting to the point of you having no darkness to sleep with, but,

Sorry, I cannot make a meaningful calculation without your cost of commercially loaded ammo (if indeed, any of this is meaningful in the first place).

You need to get some sleep, but in the interest of Inter-State relations, here goes nothing.

Commercial 243 ammo about $29.95 per box of 20.

I bought 500 cases years ago so I amortize them at $28.00 per 100, powder at 34.5 grains per load or (22.95 / 7,000 x 34.5) $0.113 per load, primers at $0.03 per round, bullets (on-sale) at $18.00 per 100 or (0.28+0.113+0.03+0.18) = a cost of $0.603 per round or $12.06 per box of 20 rounds. That's a cost savings of $17.89 per box. I can load about 100 rounds in two hours with case prep, priming, powder, seating and crimping (yes I crimp) or I am paying myself (17.89 x 5 boxes) / 2 hours or $44.73 per hour.

Not a bad rate of pay nowadays (a savings of $89.45 per 100 rounds)

Jim

 

[Lost Sheep]

38 special brass- free range pickup, expected life = infinite with moderate loads
small pistol primers- $.018
Powder- Titegroup $108 per 8# keg...3.5 grains = $.00675
Bullet- free from my own mold
Lead- Free from smelting range scrap
Propane to smelt & electricity for melting pot = free from selling scrap copper from range scrap
XLOX bullet lube- Free from copper sales, see above.. negligable anyway.
Total price is $.025 per round

Press time: reloading Technician First Class compensation $250/hr
Load roughly 250 rounds per hour
Actual cost: $1.025 per round
Comparable cost of factory ammo with gas, tax, time to buy it: $25/50 rounds or $.050 per shot

Net Loss per reloaded round: $.525

I should quit reloading and find a hobby that is more profitable!

So, I see loading costing you $131.19 per hour ($250 minus $118.81) or $131.19 per 250 rounds, which is right around $0.52475 for each round.

I'm glad our figures agree.

Where can I get a job that pays $250/hour?

EvanPrice
>>> 0 Cost of the loading tools
>>> 0 Bullets (per thousand)
>>> 18 Primers (per thousand)
>>> 13.5 Powder (per lb)
>>> 3.5 load (grains per round)
>>> 0.0% spillage/shrinkage (I guess at 3% unless specified otherwise)
>>> 0 Brass (per hundred)
>>> 1 # of times each case is used (account for loss in this estimate)

>>> 4 Time required to load 1000 rounds. Include EVERYTHING. Picking up, cleaning, sorting, inspecting, filling primer tubes, etc.
>>> 0 Initial time learning to load

1.24 (Calculated) Cost per increment loaded
0.02 (Calculated) Cost per round

>>> 25 Cost per box for purchased ammuntion
>>> 50 Rounds per box referred to above

>>> 50 Incremental round count

Wage Equivalent without initial cost
$118.81 /hr

Lost Sheep

 

[Teachu2]

Back in the '80s I shot a lot of .45acp (like 10k+/year) and loaded almost all my own. Components were cheap, and so was my time. When I started varminting, I loaded my own for accuracy. Now that I'm back into shooting pistols, and working 12-14 hours a day, I'm not in a hurry to buy components and set up the presses. WWB 9mm at $23/100 seems to get the job done. I'm at work now (6:30PM, been here since 7AM) and really can't get enthusiastic about reloading a few hundred rounds. Add in the cost to run the air in my shop (it's 93 here now) and it's not worth it.

Someday, maybe...but not today!

 

[blarby]

The cost of comparable commercial ammo, for me and my wife, is hard to calculate. Let me explain :

In terms of rifle, such ammunition cannot be purchased for any amount of money- it does not exist to be purchased. My ammunition is tailored for form, and function- to the particulars of my chamber and rifling. It cannot be obtained anywhere but from on my bench, with my procedures, as a result of my testing and notes and measurements.

The exception would be for semi-auto rifles, where I load to spec.

In pistol, I do load target ammunition...but most of my "custom" ammunition is designed with very specific results in mind....slug size, velocity at deployment, specific recoil...there are many customization's to be had in my ammo box. None of which, again, can be obtained off the shelf.

In terms of reliability and guarantee of function, that too is hard to quantify. I have purchased some of the best ammunition money can buy for my rifles, shotguns, and pistols...and have had issues in each, with each. From failures to feed, to failures to fire, to failures to extract.

A few test shells in each weapon guarantees to me that none of these issues will occur with ammunition I produce. That has a value which is extremely hard to calculate- It could be a jam on a paper target, or a failure to feed on a deer...or worse a followup shot on something more dangerous.

I appreciate this thread, Sheep. Keep up the good work.

 

[Lost Sheep]

And here is the basic data you asked for:

Number of times your brass can be (or will be) reloaded. Hard to tell I lose them. Say 5.
cost of your brass new 40 usd avg per bag of 250
cost of your primers 9 USD avg 100 caps
(1)Cost of powder for round: 100 USD per kilo VW. Itnis about 5 cents a round on avg.

"spillage" and your charge weight avg 7gr and spillage about 5%

Amount of time to load your typical session's production, to include ALL TIME SPENT.
2 hours 100 rounds. not counting collection and sorting.

Boxes: (please note these are european prices. stuff is expensive here)
9mm LRN box of 50 / 12 USD
45acp winchester fmj 50/ 25 usd
s&b 303 british match box of 50/38 usd
s&b 7.62x53r match box of 50 / 50 usd
.223 rem. i avoid all the cheap stuff. fiocchi 30 usd per box of 50
s&b gold tip match for 223 rem is expensive 20 usd for 20.

I do not reload (prepare) buck shot or other 12ga.

Deavalier,

Too much information all at once. I can really only evaluate one caliber at a time and you didn't provide cost for your 9mm slugs.

What I need (and this goes for everyone) is

Cost of the loading tools
Bullets (per thousand)
Primers (per thousand)
Powder (per lb, please calculate for me, per single pound)
load (grains per round)
spillage/shrinkage (I will guess at 0% if you don't specify, but who doesn't spill ANY?)
Brass (per hundred)
# of times each case is used (account for loss in this estimate. If Brass cost is zero, use 1)
Time required to load 1000 rounds. Include EVERYTHING. Picking up, cleaning, sorting, inspecting, filling primer tubes, etc.
Initial time learning to load (if you want to count this, too)
Cost per box for purchased ammuntion
Rounds per box referred to above

Incremental round count (50, 10, 20, 100: your typical production batch)

When I get the spreadsheet finalized, the spreadsheet will return with:

(Calculated) Cost per increment loaded
(Calculated) Cost per each round
Savings per round
Hourly "earnings" or savings per hour spent, after initial investment (tools and training) is amortized
Your actual breakeven point in rounds made
Your actual breakeven point in hours spent loading
Hourly "earnings" or savings per hour while amortizing the initial investment. (tabulated against the rounds produced.) This is another way to see where your "breakeven" point is

And, for my own purposes (and what I get out of this) for my education and curiosity:
I would like to know what kind of press you use, your cyclic (burst) production rate, your sustained production rate and whether you do batch processing, continuous processing or a hybrid of the two methods. Describe it if possible.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

Back in the '80s I shot a lot of .45acp (like 10k+/year) and loaded almost all my own. Components were cheap, and so was my time. When I started varminting, I loaded my own for accuracy. Now that I'm back into shooting pistols, and working 12-14 hours a day, I'm not in a hurry to buy components and set up the presses. WWB 9mm at $23/100 seems to get the job done. I'm at work now (6:30PM, been here since 7AM) and really can't get enthusiastic about reloading a few hundred rounds. Add in the cost to run the air in my shop (it's 93 here now) and it's not worth it.

Someday, maybe...but not today!

I hear you. I've been to Bakersfield. I will be visiting Stockton later this summer. Compared to Anchorage, Stockton is about all I could take.

I was stationed at Williams AFB (near Phoenix) when I took up shooting and reloading in 1975. That was plenty warm enough, too. But the evenings were GREAT!

The cost of comparable commercial ammo, for me and my wife, is hard to calculate. Let me explain :

Yep, the task of an accountant is to put a monetary value on everything. Some things simply defy quantization, much less monetization.

In terms of rifle, such ammunition cannot be purchased for any amount of money- it does not exist to be purchased. My ammunition is tailored for form, and function- to the particulars of my chamber and rifling. It cannot be obtained anywhere but from on my bench, with my procedures, as a result of my testing and notes and measurements.

The exception would be for semi-auto rifles, where I load to spec.

In pistol, I do load target ammunition...but most of my "custom" ammunition is designed with very specific results in mind....slug size, velocity at deployment, specific recoil...there are many customization's to be had in my ammo box. None of which, again, can be obtained off the shelf.

The best you could do, then is to estimate what it would cost to have someone else load to your tailored specifications. Then you know what you would be willing to pay your hireling/contractor to do the work (Not considering the relaxation that "chunking" out perfect rounds for yourself gives you - one of those unquantifiables.

In terms of reliability and guarantee of function, that too is hard to quantify. I have purchased some of the best ammunition money can buy for my rifles, shotguns, and pistols...and have had issues in each, with each. From failures to feed, to failures to fire, to failures to extract.

A few test shells in each weapon guarantees to me that none of these issues will occur with ammunition I produce. That has a value which is extremely hard to calculate- It could be a jam on a paper target, or a failure to feed on a deer...or worse a followup shot on something more dangerous.

I appreciate this thread, Sheep. Keep up the good work.

Thank you for your encouragement and kind words.

Lost Sheep

 

[jim243]

What I need (and this goes for everyone) is

Cost of the loading tools

Not relevent, one time fixed cost. Tooling cost is only relevent in Standard Costing to give a amortized cost of tool replacement.

Purchased my equipment almost 8 years ago and have loaded over 25,000 rounds. You could give a standard cost of $0.01 per round, but to be truthfull I see no wear in my dies or presses and I am not planning on replacing any of it any time soon. How much does your golf clubs add to the cost of a round of golf or cost per hole???


jim

 

[Lost Sheep]

Not relevent, one time fixed cost. Tooling cost is only relevent in Standard Costing to give a amortized cost of tool replacement.

Purchased my equipment almost 8 years ago and have loaded over 25,000 rounds. You could give a standard cost of $0.01 per round, but to be truthfull I see no wear in my dies or presses and I am not planning on replacing any of it any time soon. How much does your golf clubs add to the cost of a round of golf or cost per hole???


jim

My target audience (the shooter who is considering taking up loading) is not interested in tool replacement, but rather, if the savings is worth the start-up cost.

I have noticed a few threads that centered around the cost of getting into loading, in addition to the cost of production, so thought this approach to cost accounting would be useful.

Lost Sheep

 

[jim243]

I have noticed a few threads that centered around the cost of getting into loading, in addition to the cost of production, so thought this approach to cost accounting would be useful.

Now your getting into my area of expertise. (45 years of it)

What you are talking about is not the deprecation of the asset (cost over the life), but what is the "Return on Investment" of the project. If I invest $500.00 into a project at what point will I start to turn a profit and at what rate of return will I see.

That will depend on a obtainable rate of production over a period of time that can provide a profit to offset the variable costs as well as fixed and semi-variable costs. Do I consider the heat and light bills as part of that cost since I will normally have those costs regardless, how about rent or mortgage payments since space is now being used for the project. Labor cost of paying junior to deprime the cases and run the tumbler. Or the really big cost of buying the wife off so you can spend an hour or two at the reloading bench while she is off with the girls shopping. (BIG $$$$$)

While it is thoughtfull of you to try to answer this question as to COST, you are opening a big can of worms when you try to cost out a hobby. And let us not forget the additional cost of going to the range (gas, range fees, new rifles and test ammo).

These all should be put into the cost of reloading.

Stay safe, shoot straight and have fun.
Jim

 

[Lost Sheep]

Now your getting into my area of expertise. (45 years of it)

What you are talking about is not the deprecation of the asset (cost over the life), but what is the "Return on Investment" of the project. If I invest $500.00 into a project at what point will I start to turn a profit and at what rate of return will I see.

That will depend on a obtainable rate of production over a period of time that can provide a profit to offset the variable costs as well as fixed and semi-variable costs. Do I consider the heat and light bills as part of that cost since I will normally have those costs regardless, how about rent or mortgage payments since space is now being used for the project. Labor cost of paying junior to deprime the cases and run the tumbler. Or the really big cost of buying the wife off so you can spend an hour or two at the reloading bench while she is off with the girls shopping. (BIG $$$$$)

While it is thoughtfull of you to try to answer this question as to COST, you are opening a big can of worms when you try to cost out a hobby. And let us not forget the additional cost of going to the range (gas, range fees, new rifles and test ammo).

These all should be put into the cost of reloading.

Stay safe, shoot straight and have fun.
Jim

Well, unless you change your shooting habits the cost of going to the range will not change. A lot of non-differential costs drop out that way. (But, of course, we all know they will change habits.)

I purposefully did not put junior into the mix. I don't think anyone wants different wage rates, dependent on seniority or anything else to complicate matters.

Semi-variable costs, and replacing/upgrading and all those considerations I left out, too. Excel, my available time and my skills can only go so far.

I appreciate your comments (and your humor - did you read post #39?).

Note: I costed out the value of my first season's salmon, too. Don't ask. However, the fish was delicious.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

Anyone want to do the Beta-testing?

Break-even Analysis version 1

I left out the incremental wage rates. I think they are not all that useful to most folks. Instead, breakeven points.

I also added in a way to include in the startup costs, the time you spend in educating and training yourself.

I did not write directions, hoping the comments will be self-evident. If anyone has any suggestions for better wording, please use PMs so as not to clutter the thread.

The yellow highlighted fields are where you input your data. The last one, increment size is so you can put 20, for rifle round boxes, 50 for pistol round boxes or 100 for quantities or 1,000 for really big loading session. You can use any increment size, 500, 2,000, any whole number, one or greater.

Thanks for everyone's responses. Remember, I am interested evaluating various methods and equipment, so, if you feel like educating me, please describe your loading process, what gear you use and your rate of output (burst or cyclic rate and sustained rate).

Me, I can load 100 rounds in 40 minutes on a Lee Classic Turret using an Autodisk powder measure and a 4-die set and that includes filling the primer feed device and powder measure (but not verifying the powder throw, I stopped the clock for that). I estimate all other case prep to be about 20 minutes (cleaning, sorting, sifting from the tumbling media, etc.)

Thanks

Lost Sheep

EDIT: Anyone know how I can upload/attach an Excel Spreadsheet file?

In the meantime, open this text file, copy it and paste into a spreadsheet. The fields indicated by ">>>" in column "A" should have your values put into column "B".


OR, I just discovered, you can click on the attachment and "Open With" Excel and it works for me. You will just have to take care of cell formatting and decimal places yourself.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Or try it this way

Or, open this file directly into Excel (ignore the .txt extension)


Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

Not sure if the "quality" of ammunition was addressed/factored in the calculation.

When I started match shooting, I shot factory ammunition. I compared different factory loads and settled with S&B and PMC for a balance of accuracy vs cost.

I started reloading to not just realize a cost savings but for more accurate loads. My shot groups shrank about half with good match grade reloads using Montana Gold jacketed bullets (and my current match grade reloads are shooting more accurate than all the factory loads I have shot). If you compete, your monetized cost savings should factor in match grade ammunition and not cheap factory target/plinking load costs.

I get the smallest shot groups with my 20" HBAR using Black Hills ammo but have you priced them lately? Even the blue box reloaded Black Hills ammo is expensive! With my reloads, I can come close enough in accuracy for match shooting with substantial cost savings.

Actually, the cost of comparable factory ammunition is included in the calculation. You just have to plug in the cost of ammunition from a factory (or that could be made by a factory or a commercial custom loader).

Sorry for being so late with my reply, I did not see your post until I referenced this thread in another one (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9575389&posted=1#post9575389)

Lost Sheep

 

[CLP]

How much is one hour at a therapist?

Depends on if they're a psychiatrist or psychologist. I'm not sure what the latter bills per hour, but I don't take therapy pt's because no one can afford the hourly rate. I do med mgmt and see in-patients, like >90% of psychiatrists. Those that do see therapy pt's are usually in academic centers or mental health centers where they're paid flat salaries with modest to no RVU bonuses.

I don't put an hourly rate on down-time. It's down-time for a reason. If I go assigning a monetary value for time I spend pursuing recreational activities or time with my family I think it'd dilute the fun and enjoyment of doing so. Reloading is a big down-time activity for me. When I come home at 8-9pm, I'm unable to go to any range (actually, I could go to a local indoor range but I'd rather come home and spend time with my family), but if I spend an hour tinkering around on my reloading bench while my wife is watching some terrible show on Bravo then I'm happy. If you don't like to reload then perhaps you might think of it in terms of dollars/cents. Would definitely be cheaper for me to get rid of all my reloading stuff and just buy factory ammo, but not as enjoyable. When I started out, it was all about lowering the cost of ammo- and I did. Starting out, I was able to load a box of 45 ACP for far more less than what it would have cost me at Wal-Mart or anywhere else. Now, I guess I make some pretty expensive ammunition. Just as happy though.

 

[leadcounsel]

Yep - reloaders who would otherwise work for an hourly wage, or use their time to get ahead in their career, are dis-ingenious not to include their hourly worth of their time.

One can take this to an extreme and get depressed or cynical... but time does equal money.

When I do any hobby, lets say snowboarding, I know that the basic economic principle is that it costs me the equipment (sunk cost), the lift ticket (1 day or season pass), the gas to drive to the mountain, the cost of staying and eating there, AND the 10 hours time. Time isn't free.

If you spend time doing ANYTHING when you could otherwise be earning money, that's costing you money. Basic principle of economics. Whether it's time with the wife, watching a movie, on the internet, etc. Think of it this way... if you took an unpaid day off work to reload ammo, to fishing, go to a football game, etc. it would in fact cost you money in wages from lost work. Now often that tradeoff is worth it, in tangible or intangible ways. But it's foolish to deny a pure economic cost in the time/value of money.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.

You can fly across America for about $1,000 in a day. You can drive across for several hundred dollars, in several days. Or you can walk for free in several months. I think we can all agree that there are obvious economic costs with each option. To say that walking is "free" is nonsense.

Figure out your hourly value of your time. Add up the time shopping and ordering components, setting up your reloading gear, reloading, tear down, clean up. Also add in the 5 square feet your reloading bench takes up... for instance a house may cost $80 per square feet. So a permanent designated 15 square feet costs $1200.

 

[horsemen61]

Good thread thanks

 

[jmorris]

Old thread but I will add, what would you do if you didn't reload?

There are lots of things that will cost you more than reloading.

Do you think about how much your time is worth when your at the movies, out to dinner, hunting, boating or riding your motorcycle/atv? You have to pay to play with all of thoes activities too.

 

[maxxhavoc]

Well, the spreadsheet says I am worth $47.95/hr when I load my 9mm on my Pro 1000, and $7.95 when I handload .223 on a single stage. Of course I am in the air conditioning watching TV through most of the rifle stuff. Trimming, chamfering, deburring, primer pocket swaging and uniforming do not require a lot of brainpower.

I guess if one of my employees watched TV at work I would consider cutting back their pay, too.

Of course, since this may be seen by people considering reloading, I don't do it to save money. It started that way, but now I do it mostly for the fun of it. After I got my last new rifle, I found myself just blasting through the last half of a box of ammo just so I would have some brass to start load development with. In other words, I was only shooting so I could get home and reload...