catinthebat
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- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 54
Inexpensive, cheap to shoot, indestructible, and historical. Probably sums it up.
whats so good about mosins?
- Thread starter bigdipper
- Start date
- Status
Ash
Member
Those who have come to trash the Mosin have done so out of ignorance. They compare the crude-looking (only crude in finish, fit and accuracy were not affected) 1943 Izhevsk rifles, built in a hurry with Germans roaming about from the Steppes to nearly the Caucasus. Compare a normal Mosin, pre-war, with a Mauser of the same ere, and compare them in equally clean condition, and you find that the sights are virtually identical with identical adjustability, equally smooth-bolts, stocks that are fundamentally the same in quality, equal bluing/finishing/fit, etc.
The Mosin is a rorshach test for many. They like their personal choice, and so the Mosin must be crap. They'll proceed then to find ways it is crap. Ditto for the Carcano. Having owned them all, including good and rough versions of them all, there is nothing superior about a Mauser in a military rifle over a Mosin. Sights are identical (in the case of Finnish Mosins, the Mosin sights can be superior to any standard-issue Mauser from any nation). The Mosin safety is not for girlie men, but it is simple, extremely quiet, easy to work if you actually know how, and once engaged will not accidentally bump off. Accuracy of a Mosin is no different than a k98k of the same issue year. Compare Finnish Mosins, and you find it hard for many Mausers to even be equal. Certainly no Mauser can have a better trigger than the Finn. Design-wise the trigger is excellent. Many refurbs have inconsistent triggers, the result of an indifferent refurbishment program, but that is not the fault of the trigger design. The Remington model 700 bolt actually has as much in common with a Mosin as it does with a Mauser.
As to who designed it, well, there are a number of men involved in its design. It starts with Hiram Berdan of the good old US of A. He created the Berdan II rifle, which was the progenitor of the Mosin. Sergei Mosin evolved the US-designed Berdan, keeping the US-created aesthetics of the rifle and largely the same receiver and bolt, added a bolt head with two locking lugs, included his own trigger design, and mated it to his butt stock magazine design. This is decades and two wars before Lenin took over, by the way. The arms commission didn't care for the magazine and, depending on who's telling the story, picked the magazine from Emile Nagant's rifle submission, which they otherwise did not care for. So, the Mosin is an evolved American design following the American aesthetic created by Col. Berdan himself.
The Mosin design has served militarily longer than any Mauser design, and is still in service today (albeit in reserves in Finland as the Tkiv-85, the Czechs surplussed their VZ54/91's last year). No Mauser can make an equal claim, and Finland hardly qualifies as an ignorant, peasant-based military, nor did the Czechs.
Are there better rifles? Scoping is easier on a Mauser than a Mosin, but the Mosin M91/30PU sniper was the most successful sniper ever built. I'd wager that either of the two Mosins I posted on the previous page could compete equally well with any Mauser. The 1903 had better sights, but on a battlefield, the M39 Mosin's sights are equally as good and fully adjustable. The 1903A3 has better standard sights than any Mosin (or Mauser for that matter), ditto for the 1917 Enfield. Ditto for the adjustable #4 Enfield's sights. But there's nothing in a Mauser's sighting arrangement that is better than the updated 1930's sights - the m91's saw-tooth sights were just okay, and the Finnish M39's combat sights were better than the combat sights on any Mauser (if the Springfield/Enfield derivatives are counted separately).
Is there are better battle rifle? In bolt actions, only the SMLE Enfield gets the nod with the higher capacity magazine and short bolt-throw. But on the battlefield, history has shown the Mosin will perform equally well as any other bolt-action rifle. An army armed with Mosins would be equal to one armed with Mausers everywhere except in the imaginations of some people. Specific Mosin models can even be rated among the best ever fielded. In any case, personal preference is really king here, and one man may shoot one kind of rifle best. Since personal preference is the balance-tipper, any choice, Mauser, Enfield, Mosin, Carcano, etc is a good one.
As far as rounds go, it is absurd to say the 7.62x54r does not come close to the 30-06. It certainly does, unless by close you are using microscopic comparisons. 7.62x39 does not come close, but 54r is absolutely comparable. Unless, of course, you claim that the 308 cannot come close to the 30-06, and many here will argue that. Is the 30-06 more versatile? Only in the heaviest weights. In everything else, they are virtually the same in performance. Any argument over an FPS here or there might as well argue about spirits on a pin head. Factory loadings obviously favor the 30-06 in choice and variety - something that goes away with reloading. But good hunting loads are always available for the 54r all the same. The deer/antelope/hog won't be able to tell the difference.
The Mosin is a rorshach test for many. They like their personal choice, and so the Mosin must be crap. They'll proceed then to find ways it is crap. Ditto for the Carcano. Having owned them all, including good and rough versions of them all, there is nothing superior about a Mauser in a military rifle over a Mosin. Sights are identical (in the case of Finnish Mosins, the Mosin sights can be superior to any standard-issue Mauser from any nation). The Mosin safety is not for girlie men, but it is simple, extremely quiet, easy to work if you actually know how, and once engaged will not accidentally bump off. Accuracy of a Mosin is no different than a k98k of the same issue year. Compare Finnish Mosins, and you find it hard for many Mausers to even be equal. Certainly no Mauser can have a better trigger than the Finn. Design-wise the trigger is excellent. Many refurbs have inconsistent triggers, the result of an indifferent refurbishment program, but that is not the fault of the trigger design. The Remington model 700 bolt actually has as much in common with a Mosin as it does with a Mauser.
As to who designed it, well, there are a number of men involved in its design. It starts with Hiram Berdan of the good old US of A. He created the Berdan II rifle, which was the progenitor of the Mosin. Sergei Mosin evolved the US-designed Berdan, keeping the US-created aesthetics of the rifle and largely the same receiver and bolt, added a bolt head with two locking lugs, included his own trigger design, and mated it to his butt stock magazine design. This is decades and two wars before Lenin took over, by the way. The arms commission didn't care for the magazine and, depending on who's telling the story, picked the magazine from Emile Nagant's rifle submission, which they otherwise did not care for. So, the Mosin is an evolved American design following the American aesthetic created by Col. Berdan himself.
The Mosin design has served militarily longer than any Mauser design, and is still in service today (albeit in reserves in Finland as the Tkiv-85, the Czechs surplussed their VZ54/91's last year). No Mauser can make an equal claim, and Finland hardly qualifies as an ignorant, peasant-based military, nor did the Czechs.
Are there better rifles? Scoping is easier on a Mauser than a Mosin, but the Mosin M91/30PU sniper was the most successful sniper ever built. I'd wager that either of the two Mosins I posted on the previous page could compete equally well with any Mauser. The 1903 had better sights, but on a battlefield, the M39 Mosin's sights are equally as good and fully adjustable. The 1903A3 has better standard sights than any Mosin (or Mauser for that matter), ditto for the 1917 Enfield. Ditto for the adjustable #4 Enfield's sights. But there's nothing in a Mauser's sighting arrangement that is better than the updated 1930's sights - the m91's saw-tooth sights were just okay, and the Finnish M39's combat sights were better than the combat sights on any Mauser (if the Springfield/Enfield derivatives are counted separately).
Is there are better battle rifle? In bolt actions, only the SMLE Enfield gets the nod with the higher capacity magazine and short bolt-throw. But on the battlefield, history has shown the Mosin will perform equally well as any other bolt-action rifle. An army armed with Mosins would be equal to one armed with Mausers everywhere except in the imaginations of some people. Specific Mosin models can even be rated among the best ever fielded. In any case, personal preference is really king here, and one man may shoot one kind of rifle best. Since personal preference is the balance-tipper, any choice, Mauser, Enfield, Mosin, Carcano, etc is a good one.
As far as rounds go, it is absurd to say the 7.62x54r does not come close to the 30-06. It certainly does, unless by close you are using microscopic comparisons. 7.62x39 does not come close, but 54r is absolutely comparable. Unless, of course, you claim that the 308 cannot come close to the 30-06, and many here will argue that. Is the 30-06 more versatile? Only in the heaviest weights. In everything else, they are virtually the same in performance. Any argument over an FPS here or there might as well argue about spirits on a pin head. Factory loadings obviously favor the 30-06 in choice and variety - something that goes away with reloading. But good hunting loads are always available for the 54r all the same. The deer/antelope/hog won't be able to tell the difference.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
And the same logic can be applied to its fans.
On paper, sure. But that wasn't the argument.
All I care to say is that at least it does have its fans and y'all won't have to fight me over them at the $79 rifle rack.
Ash
Member
Yeah, Craig, but where I have mentioned that a Mauser is crap? I did not nor have I. See what you want in the ink blots. It really doesn't matter.
The argument you made as to ammo is that the 7.62x54r doesn't come close to the 30-06. That ain't paper or what ever. In the real world, there isn't a dime's difference in their performance except at the utter fringes. For every weight up to 220 grains, their performance is so close that barrel length has as much influence on performance.
I've no need nor desire to convince you to buy a Mosin. But your comments on them are biased and ignorant - and that is not to flame. Having owned all the actions, Mauser, Enfield, Carcano, etc, I can be objective enough to know that there really is no difference. Best examples of all the rifles exhibit quality workmanship, provide good accuracy, and served their armies well. There is no difference in real-world performance between any of them, except when the double-capacity magazine of the Enfield is considered or the fixed battle sights on the WWII Carcanos being inferior to other sights.
As to where you make your purchases - the $79 Mosin is largely a myth, except when on sale. Even so, I could waste my time with the same $79 Turkish Mauser mis-match kings. Or, try my hand at the absurdly-priced Russian refurb K98k's with their dip blues and rough actions. Bottom examples of all actions can be found. Apples and apples, on the other hand...compare my $300 M39 with a $300 RC K98k and the Mosin wins. That is not to say there are no fine examples of Mausers about - the Swedes and Czechs made some really beautiful versions. The Persian Mauser, apart from being very long, is a work of art. Yet I'd happily compare my SAKO M28/76 against any Mauser.
By the way, what's your best bolt action military rifle? What is the best that you own?
The argument you made as to ammo is that the 7.62x54r doesn't come close to the 30-06. That ain't paper or what ever. In the real world, there isn't a dime's difference in their performance except at the utter fringes. For every weight up to 220 grains, their performance is so close that barrel length has as much influence on performance.
I've no need nor desire to convince you to buy a Mosin. But your comments on them are biased and ignorant - and that is not to flame. Having owned all the actions, Mauser, Enfield, Carcano, etc, I can be objective enough to know that there really is no difference. Best examples of all the rifles exhibit quality workmanship, provide good accuracy, and served their armies well. There is no difference in real-world performance between any of them, except when the double-capacity magazine of the Enfield is considered or the fixed battle sights on the WWII Carcanos being inferior to other sights.
As to where you make your purchases - the $79 Mosin is largely a myth, except when on sale. Even so, I could waste my time with the same $79 Turkish Mauser mis-match kings. Or, try my hand at the absurdly-priced Russian refurb K98k's with their dip blues and rough actions. Bottom examples of all actions can be found. Apples and apples, on the other hand...compare my $300 M39 with a $300 RC K98k and the Mosin wins. That is not to say there are no fine examples of Mausers about - the Swedes and Czechs made some really beautiful versions. The Persian Mauser, apart from being very long, is a work of art. Yet I'd happily compare my SAKO M28/76 against any Mauser.
By the way, what's your best bolt action military rifle? What is the best that you own?
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Really? Can I go to the local shop and buy 7.62x54 cases? Bullets??? Are there premium 220gr bullets available or are we only looking at weight? Can you buy sporting rifles in the 7.62? Can I walk into any gunshop and stumble over a rack of good, used 7.62 that are NOT Mosins? No. It was said that the 7.62 would do anything the .308 and .30-06 can do. I never said the 7.62 wouldn't push a similar weight bullet at a similar velocity. I was addressing all the other little details you guys are ignoring. Why? Because there's no point. People like the Mosin because it's cheap and there's cheap ammo available. If it weren't cheap, few would buy them. Nobody buys them because the have fantastic triggers, gilt edged accuracy or a comfortable stock. Nobody buys them to have a $5000 custom rifle built out of them. Nobody buys them to feed them finely crafted handloads with premium bullets. So you can go on and on about how good a good one is, nobody is looking for good ones. They're looking for cheap ones.
My comments are based on inspecting rifles using the knowledge I've built over my lifetime and nothing more. No bias. As far as ignorance, well, everything I know about Mosins I learned from Mosins. Nice try at the veiled personal attack though.
I don't own any so I really have no dog in this fight. I have, however, examined and inspected enough of them to know that I would not cross the street for a free Mosin.
Matt/morcey2: Have you tried using the split keyboard? I have a dedicated (physical keyboard) for my iPad, but when I'm not using that, I love the split keyboard. I can type almost as fast on this split one (using it now), as I can on a real one. Just hold down on the keyboard button in the lower-right corner and select "Split" and it will give you a nice keyboard that is easy to use with just your thumbs!
That said, my contribution to this thread is that I like the idea of a Mosin, but from what I can see, the days of really cheap ones and cheap ammo are behind us.
Plus, I've decided that I'm a wimp! I've shot a couple of Mosins (my friends got some when they were more plentiful and cheaper), and they KICK! Like I said, I'm a wimp. I like 9mm, 7.62x39, etc. I like to be able to shoot all day, so I've decided that I'm a bit recoil sensitive.
morcey2
Member
Really? For not having a dog in this fight, you're sure putting a lot of money down on something.
What I said...
I don't know about everywhere else, but around here "pretty much" is a qualifier that means "almost", not "exactly". As far as performance is concerned that's an accurate statement. I never asserted anything about the popularity of $5000 custom rifles based on the mosin action. That also has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
We're not ignoring the other little details. I asserted that the cartridge will do almost anything a 30-06 or 308 will do and you keep bringing up paint color and stereo system availability while arguing vehicle performance.
Wanna feed them premium bullets? In .308"? Buy a finn barreled rifle (not M39 or M91/30). They have some of the best barrels ever produced.
Nothing else you've said has any relevance to what I said.
I'm not arguing which cartridge is better, just whether it's sufficient.
Matt
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Bullet selection is extremely limited. As is brass selection. As is rifle selection. As is everything else selection. So no, the 7.62x54R will NOT "do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do" because it is much more limited. In factory loads, bullet selection, component availability and rifle selection. If it did "do pretty much anything that a 30-06 or 308 can do" it would be WAAAAAY more popular than it is, other than cheap Mosin's and cheap ammo.
Everything I've said is relevant to an objective discussion on the merits of the rifle and its cartridge. You just don't want to hear it. You're blinded by your own choices.
Onward Allusion
Member
Wow, almost as good as glocktalk.com! 
Roadking Rider
Member
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 466
This should help you understand why people like there Mosin Nagants.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
Ash
Member
Craig, I mean no veiled insults. I don't do that. But without owning any of these rifles, you are posting from a point of ignorance. Inspecting a Ferrari and owning one are two different things. Ditto for a Volkswagon.
It is interesting you point out bullet choice. I have several Mosins with a bore diameter of .308 inches. Seems to me my bullet choices are outstanding. Indeed, they are equal to that of any 30-06 made. Only at the heaviest bullet weights can an issue arise, and only then in brute power.
By the way, there are many sporting rifles made for the 7.62x54r, some of them quite pricey.
http://www.rwcgroupllc.com/firearms/izmash-centerfire-rifles/67b-record-7-62x54r-wooden-stock/
Not a tithe of the number of 30-06, and nobody here pretends otherwise. That was not the question. The question was about the draw a Mosin has. It has been answered. Ditto for ammo. Ammo availability is quite good and the options are suitable for any given task and considerably cheaper than what is available in 30-06. I have sniper-grade ammo that cost half what on-the-shelf commercial hunting loads cost. I have high-quality hunting loads as well, with weights of 180 and 203 grain soft points that are accurate and powerful.
In short, from those who have owned all types of actions, the Mosin is not so quickly dismissed as you seem ready to do. I once quickly dismissed Chinese m14 receivers - that is until I learned better. With knowledge came understanding.
It is interesting you point out bullet choice. I have several Mosins with a bore diameter of .308 inches. Seems to me my bullet choices are outstanding. Indeed, they are equal to that of any 30-06 made. Only at the heaviest bullet weights can an issue arise, and only then in brute power.
By the way, there are many sporting rifles made for the 7.62x54r, some of them quite pricey.
http://www.rwcgroupllc.com/firearms/izmash-centerfire-rifles/67b-record-7-62x54r-wooden-stock/
Not a tithe of the number of 30-06, and nobody here pretends otherwise. That was not the question. The question was about the draw a Mosin has. It has been answered. Ditto for ammo. Ammo availability is quite good and the options are suitable for any given task and considerably cheaper than what is available in 30-06. I have sniper-grade ammo that cost half what on-the-shelf commercial hunting loads cost. I have high-quality hunting loads as well, with weights of 180 and 203 grain soft points that are accurate and powerful.
In short, from those who have owned all types of actions, the Mosin is not so quickly dismissed as you seem ready to do. I once quickly dismissed Chinese m14 receivers - that is until I learned better. With knowledge came understanding.
Chevelle SS
Member
They are cheap, ammo is relatively cheap, and they have some historical significance.
morcey2
Member
Factory hunting loads: Winchester, Lapua, Norma, S&B, PPU,Brown Bear, Barnaul (possibly the same as BB), Wolf Gold (possibly the same as PPU)
There are more factory loads for 7.62x54R than for 6mm Remington and they're more easily available. I'd hardly consider that a liability for a 6mm remington. If it could do anything that a 243 Winchester could do, it would be "WAAAAAY more popular than it is".
Bullet selection:Hornady, Speer, Sierra, PPU, S&B, and a couple I'm probably missing.
No, there isn't an overwhelming selection of premium bullets for reloading, but if I'm after something that needs a premium 220+ grain bullet traveling at 2400 fps or higher, I'm not going to be doing that with either a 30-06 _OR_ 7.62x54R. AND, again, if you get a finnish rifle with a 0.308 bore, you've got full access to the entire selection of 0.308" premium bullets.
component availability: Lapua, Norma, PPU all make brass and won't likely stop any time soon.
Saying that lack of demand for $5000 custom rifles chambered in 7.62x54R is hardly objective. I'm pretty sure that if I wanted a custom rifle and had $5000 to put into it, I could get it built chambering the 7.62x54R. I agree that it isn't the optimal cartridge, but nothing else is either. Would I feel undergunned taking a mosin that shoots well after deer or elk? No. How about brown bear? Yep. Same with the 30-06. Ballistically, the 7.62x54 is comparable to a 308.
And as for being blinded by my own choices, I hunt with a 30-06(among others), not a 7.62x54.
I buy mosins for the same reasons I buy Mausers. They're fun to shoot, easy to reload for, and the history behind them (If I can get to them before bubba) is lots of fun. Although, shooting an M44 or M38 without a recoil pad of some sort can make for a very short day of shooting. 20 rounds and I'm done.
I like mosins. You don't. I get it. I don't like asparagus, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good, wholesome vegetable with lots of nutrients, roughage, and a little bit of cosmoline.
And I don't think this will ever get as bad as either glock talk or ar15 dot com. We're all better than that here. I haven't seen anything remotely resembling that, even in this discussion.
Matt
leadcounsel
member
Price and history.
I love how people compare the $100 rifle and .10cent ammo to $300, $500, and $800 rifles and .50cent ammo.
I also love how people compare a rifle made by basically slave labor under harsh wartime conditions with rifles that were made by well-paid employees under non-wartime conditions.
$100 buys you a really sweet piece of history, AND a funtioning gun. Another $100 buys 440 rounds, more than you'd likely shoot in several years. What's not to like?
I mean seriously....
I love how people compare the $100 rifle and .10cent ammo to $300, $500, and $800 rifles and .50cent ammo.
I also love how people compare a rifle made by basically slave labor under harsh wartime conditions with rifles that were made by well-paid employees under non-wartime conditions.
$100 buys you a really sweet piece of history, AND a funtioning gun. Another $100 buys 440 rounds, more than you'd likely shoot in several years. What's not to like?
I mean seriously....
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
A wise man once said, "I do not have to lick a turd to know that I would not want to eat one". Just as I don't have to own a Yugo to know that they're junk, I don't have to own a Mosin to know that I do not want one and most importantly. The good Lord gave me the gift of deductive reasoning and after 25yrs of buying and selling guns, I think I've figured out how to separate the chaff from the wheat.
See my signature for a little ancient wisdom.
I got a 1931 hex receiver Mosin in excellent condition last summer for $99 + shipping. That's not much harm to learn by, heck my wife tends to sink far, far more than that into Starbucks, fast food, nail salons, Bed Bath & Beyond, etc in a month.
Cheaper bulk ammo. SHoot more and shoot often = improves marksmanship and confidence.
A win win situation. Again, get the Finn M 39 and appreciate more the potential of the Mosin design.
Its a great hunting rifle as long its within reasonable open sight distance and depending on your eye vision. For my old eyes, im confident just within 100 yds and less. But with a big target like deer or elk, i may extend that range to 200 yds. As to hogs, i ll stick my shots to less than 75 yds. The thrill of getting close to the game is the best part and not just pulling the trigger.
A win win situation. Again, get the Finn M 39 and appreciate more the potential of the Mosin design.
Its a great hunting rifle as long its within reasonable open sight distance and depending on your eye vision. For my old eyes, im confident just within 100 yds and less. But with a big target like deer or elk, i may extend that range to 200 yds. As to hogs, i ll stick my shots to less than 75 yds. The thrill of getting close to the game is the best part and not just pulling the trigger.
kBob
Member
CHeap. Durable. Goes "Boom!" The ammo is cheap. Historical.
Beats not having a rifle.
BTW I did own a Yugo, it was cheap, got good milage for the time. Steel body stood up to having a semi truck tire blow next to it and bounce off of it with out any real damage to the car or me. Once caught in a flash flood and not only did it float but continued to run and allowed me to "drive" out of the water while two other big American cars a lot nicer got trashed. When a guy pulled off to the right and then did a U turn right infront of me so I T-boned him at 55 mph the yugo crash design functioned perfectly with the steering wheel turning up rather than coming through me. My only injuries were a shoulder belt bruise (pre airbag) and busted knuckles that hit the windsheild.
Certainly it had issues but it worked.
So do mosins.
I would cross the street for a free one.
-kBob
Beats not having a rifle.
BTW I did own a Yugo, it was cheap, got good milage for the time. Steel body stood up to having a semi truck tire blow next to it and bounce off of it with out any real damage to the car or me. Once caught in a flash flood and not only did it float but continued to run and allowed me to "drive" out of the water while two other big American cars a lot nicer got trashed. When a guy pulled off to the right and then did a U turn right infront of me so I T-boned him at 55 mph the yugo crash design functioned perfectly with the steering wheel turning up rather than coming through me. My only injuries were a shoulder belt bruise (pre airbag) and busted knuckles that hit the windsheild.
Certainly it had issues but it worked.
So do mosins.
I would cross the street for a free one.
-kBob
JR47
Member
I started buying Mosin rifles when they first hit out shores. Back then, they could be had for as little as $40-50 dollars. Many were in excellent condition, and some were rare variants. They are all fun to shoot, and accurate enough for plinking in even the worst cases.
I have several Model 91/30 rifles that will hold 2 MOA with good ammunition. It's funny how all of these rifles are supposedly so inaccurate, when the Soviets used them so successfully against German snipers using K98s. There are literally tens of thousands of German soldiers who gave their lives to prove that the Mosin rifle was, indeed, accurate.
Then again, the 7.62x54R continued as a sniper round in the Dragonov rifle.
While one may not have to lick a turd to know about it, that has nothing to do with a gun. Anyone who, no matter how many years they have in the gun business, has reached a conclusion about a gun without ever firing one, is either lying, or a fool.
Remember how many of these same bozos were talking down the Glock when it was introduced? Yes, they showed us their accumulated wisdom.
If you don't care for a particular rifle of other gun, that's fine. However, don't make sweeping statements about them. That''s the province of the uneducated.
Not everyone cares to re-load. That .30-06 round with a 240 gr bullet is not loaded by anyone commercially, is it? In fact, it's hard to find .30-06 on the shelves much heavier than 175 gr., while a standard loading for the 7.62x54R is 203 gr. .
If everyone bought rifles based on some mythical usage criteria, there wouldn't be nearly as many calibers, bullet weights, or rifling choices.
Not everyone can afford a $700 rifle, much less $1000. Nor do they usually need one.
I have several Model 91/30 rifles that will hold 2 MOA with good ammunition. It's funny how all of these rifles are supposedly so inaccurate, when the Soviets used them so successfully against German snipers using K98s. There are literally tens of thousands of German soldiers who gave their lives to prove that the Mosin rifle was, indeed, accurate.
Then again, the 7.62x54R continued as a sniper round in the Dragonov rifle.
While one may not have to lick a turd to know about it, that has nothing to do with a gun. Anyone who, no matter how many years they have in the gun business, has reached a conclusion about a gun without ever firing one, is either lying, or a fool.
Remember how many of these same bozos were talking down the Glock when it was introduced? Yes, they showed us their accumulated wisdom.
If you don't care for a particular rifle of other gun, that's fine. However, don't make sweeping statements about them. That''s the province of the uneducated.
Not everyone cares to re-load. That .30-06 round with a 240 gr bullet is not loaded by anyone commercially, is it? In fact, it's hard to find .30-06 on the shelves much heavier than 175 gr., while a standard loading for the 7.62x54R is 203 gr. .
If everyone bought rifles based on some mythical usage criteria, there wouldn't be nearly as many calibers, bullet weights, or rifling choices.
Not everyone can afford a $700 rifle, much less $1000. Nor do they usually need one.
Ash
Member
Craig, you sure that's a turd or a oh-so-tasty Baby Ruth? No, I'm not going to lick a turd quite simply because it is not food or a pretty girl's lips. Those are things tongues are for. Your analogy is more akin to not licking a steak and still knowing it tastes like cotton candy. Your knowledge is based solely on your convictions, which are themselves based on nothing.
You know a Yugo is crap because they fell apart. I have a modern sniper, evidenced by the photo on the previous question, made on a receiver that was forged in 1897. You want evidence? The engineers as SAKO, a company known for putting out a quality product, felt that the metallurgy and quality of that receiver was up to the task of arming Finnish soldiers in the 1980's. That is enough for both of us without actually holding the rifle. Even so, that is not good enough for you.
The engineers at Tikka felt comfortable enough with the 91/30 action that they built thousands of 91/30's (and M91's) using Tikka barrels. Valmet felt similarly about the Mosin that they built M91's, 27's, and 39's on the same action.
Good God, man, SIG made barrels for Mosins, and Remington, Westinghouse, CZ, even FEG, FN and Radom produced barrels for Mosins or entire Mosin rifles/carbines. Broaden your scope some.
You know a Yugo is crap because they fell apart. I have a modern sniper, evidenced by the photo on the previous question, made on a receiver that was forged in 1897. You want evidence? The engineers as SAKO, a company known for putting out a quality product, felt that the metallurgy and quality of that receiver was up to the task of arming Finnish soldiers in the 1980's. That is enough for both of us without actually holding the rifle. Even so, that is not good enough for you.
The engineers at Tikka felt comfortable enough with the 91/30 action that they built thousands of 91/30's (and M91's) using Tikka barrels. Valmet felt similarly about the Mosin that they built M91's, 27's, and 39's on the same action.
Good God, man, SIG made barrels for Mosins, and Remington, Westinghouse, CZ, even FEG, FN and Radom produced barrels for Mosins or entire Mosin rifles/carbines. Broaden your scope some.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I agree with whoever it was way back there that said you answered your own question. The Mosin-Nagant rifles have a strong following. Almost like a cult thing. Some folks just collect the things in all their flavors while others see it as a good first high powered rifle.
About 15 years ago we were buying the Model 91 versions (damn those were long) for about $33 to $35 each and selling them on gun show tables for $69 after I cleaned them up. We were also buying the first Chi-Com SKS rifles at the time for about $60 and selling them all cleaned up for $109 with two 20 round boxes of ammunition included and a few stripper clips. The SKS rifles outsold the Mosin-Nagants hands down and actually the Mosin was the better rifle but not as tacticool, the Mosin also lacked the 1,000 plus after market gizmos to attach to the rifle.
I shot plenty of those rifles and were they my O3A3? Were they on par with a M1 Garand? Nope, but they did not carry the same price tag either. They were very affordable and to this day the flavors out there remain affordable. I believe affordability is the key factor. My guess is this forum and many like it have a collection of new shooters long on shooting enthusiasm and short on funds. This is where the Mosins fill a void, affordability and not every new shooter will save for buying a CMP M1 Garand or similar surplus rifle.
Following WW I large numbers of the rifles were sold off commercially, yes, that long ago and matter of fact Remington offered the cartridge with a 150 grain bullet (bronze point hunting round). Unfortunately they quit marketing the stuff around 1950. Following WW II even more of the rifles flowed in for commercial sale.
While the 7.62 X 54R cartridge is not the 30-06 but it does carry its own and does well at what it was intended to do. If we look at a 30-06 and a 7.62 X 54R side by side the 30-06 obviously offers up a greater case capacity and subsequently will fare better as we move into heavier bullets. While Norma, Lapua make the ammunition and brass for reloading enthusiast the stuff is a tad expensive for the new shooter on a budget leaving them with the military surplus stuff out there which does fine for basic shooting.
Most of the rifles I am seeing today at shows are a little rougher than the ones that were selling 15 or so years ago but as to bang for buck they are not a bad deal.
Just My Take
Ron
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Luckily I have the internet, where hordes of know-it-alls like yourself are more than willing to tell me that I've wasted my time with everything I've bothered to learn myself. That everything I think I know is false and that I don't need to know anything I didn't learn online from anonymous know-it-alls. At least I can stop wasting my money and time on books. Don't have to bother with thinking for myself any more. My own knowledge and experience is obsolete, I have Ash to take care of everything I need to know. Hell, why don't you just post for me from now on?
Jesus, condescend much? How long did it take you to know everything???
I reckon I need to add a Heritage Rough Rider, a Henry .22 and a Chiappa 1911 to my collection. Because apparently smelling like a skunk, looking like a skunk and acting like a skunk isn't enough. I have to get some stink on me to REALLY know anything.
I'm so glad I tuned in today. I'll go ahead and knock my brains out and stop thinking for myself. I reckon 25yrs of buying over 100 guns, a lifetime of shooting, handloading and study was all just a waste of time.
Ash
Member
A lifetime of shooting but never shot a Mosin so you know all there is to know about Mosins?
Listen, I'm not trying to flame you. If you think I have, sorry. I do want to keep it High Road.
But, you trash something you admit you have never owned. Beyond the list of nations that issued the Mosin, beyond the top-tier manufacturers who actually made them, there is here the sheer number of shooters who know them from first hand experience. You call them a skunk because. . . because you know a skunk when you smell one? Really? Do you really know enough of Mosins to make an objective opinion?
We know a Yugo is junk because of the drivers who bought them. Good enough. We also know that many Auto Ordnance 1911's, particularly pre Kahr ownership, are jam-o-matics because of those who owned them. Worthy of making a judgement. We are also gifted by legions of Hesse-receiver FAL's and AR's to know that they are no good.
What do the large numbers of Mosin owners say? How about listen to them. They know of what they speak.
Listen, I'm not trying to flame you. If you think I have, sorry. I do want to keep it High Road.
But, you trash something you admit you have never owned. Beyond the list of nations that issued the Mosin, beyond the top-tier manufacturers who actually made them, there is here the sheer number of shooters who know them from first hand experience. You call them a skunk because. . . because you know a skunk when you smell one? Really? Do you really know enough of Mosins to make an objective opinion?
We know a Yugo is junk because of the drivers who bought them. Good enough. We also know that many Auto Ordnance 1911's, particularly pre Kahr ownership, are jam-o-matics because of those who owned them. Worthy of making a judgement. We are also gifted by legions of Hesse-receiver FAL's and AR's to know that they are no good.
What do the large numbers of Mosin owners say? How about listen to them. They know of what they speak.
OrangePwrx9
Member
Someone once said that only accurate guns are interesting. That may or may not be true. However, after shooting a Mosin, I found it very uninteresting.
I can see someone wanting a Mosin if he has little money and no gun; but there are better choices.
Fifty years ago when I was in my teens and working for a dollar an hour I decided I wanted a single shot Winchester shotgun. My boss at my part-time job was a dealer in both Winchesters and Remingtons. I went to him and asked him to order a single shot for me. He told me to save a little more money and he'd get me either a Model 12 Winchester or a Remington Wingmaster. Ended up with the Wingmaster (870) and a second barrel; still got it, great gun. Glad I listened to him.
I can see someone wanting a Mosin if he has little money and no gun; but there are better choices.
Fifty years ago when I was in my teens and working for a dollar an hour I decided I wanted a single shot Winchester shotgun. My boss at my part-time job was a dealer in both Winchesters and Remingtons. I went to him and asked him to order a single shot for me. He told me to save a little more money and he'd get me either a Model 12 Winchester or a Remington Wingmaster. Ended up with the Wingmaster (870) and a second barrel; still got it, great gun. Glad I listened to him.
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