What's the best "starter" blackpowder gun?

[Driftwood Johnson]

The problem with the Ruger Old Army is they stopped making them in 2008.

You can find them used, but you are going to pay through the nose for a new one.

And yes, the brass frame of my old Uberti did stretch. The cylinder shield did not get battered, the frame stretched.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'm not sure what I'd do with it yet, beyond target shooting and plinking,... I definitely am interested only in percussion, not flintlocks.

I'd recommend that you start with a .44 caliber Remington 1858 made by Pietta, in the 5.5" barrel version. Well made and reliable shooting.


For a rifle, right now the Lyman Trade Rifle in .50 caliber is probably the very best value. That's the overall price (on sale now), with the quality and accuracy.


Traditions makes a couple rifles very close to the Lyman Trade Rifle in price, but I think Lyman edges out Traditions in quality in that caliber.

For a rifle, should it be a traditional design, or a modern inline model? What caliber is best for casual target shoting/plinking? I don't want to spend a fortune on bullets; is any particular caliber the cheapest to shoot? I haven't seen any rifles below .45, are smaller calibers easy to find? Do they cost more?

For the revolver, round ball and caps and felt wads are inexpensive. You will need all lead round ball in .451 size. Sorry to say that revolver bullets and rifle bullets normally don't interchange when talking muzzleloaders. You can, however, use the same size black powder for plinking and targets with the rifle as you do in the pistol.

As for rifles, the modern inlines often costs less, but they will have rather crude iron sights in many cases, as the manufacturers assume you're going to hang and optic on them, and this then drives up the price.

Hands Down the cheapest thing to shoot is a patched round ball and most inlines don't shoot the patched round ball well. You're talking 25 cents a shot for .50 caliber using store bought components when shooting a patched round ball and the lowest recoil as well. Inline ammunition is more costly.

You will pay a little more, but if you want the lowest recoil, cheapest shooting, plinking and target rifle, Traditions makes the Crocket in .32. A little bit more care is needed in loading, but it's easy to master, and a lot of folks like this rifle as it's akin to a modern .22 in many ways.



LD

 

[Loyalist Dave]

oops double post

 

[dave951]

I'd say Civil War, thereabouts. I want to get one of each, but would probably shoot the handgun more. Easier to find a range for that.

If you really want to see how deep the Civil War rabbit hole goes, come on over to the North South Skirmish Association where we compete with Civil War era guns including artillery. You read that right, we compete with cannon and mortars in live fire as well as small arms. Here's a look at what we do-



If you're just getting into black powder, a revolver is levels of complexity above a muzzleloader. A standard level traditional styled rifle can get you going without a lot of extra things to learn. If you're going to shoot Civil War era guns, remember that was a time period of change in how firearms functioned. There were muzzleloading rifles and smoothbores along with the early types of cartridge guns that fired self contained ammunition like the Spencer and Henry and of course a number of "transitional" guns like the Sharps, Smith, Gallagher, Starr.

A word on shooting muzzleloaders accurately, technique and form is critical to success as is loading. Everything that happens in a modern gun happens much more slowly in a black powder gun making any errors in aim much more apparent.

If you're set on a Civil War era type revolver, I'd say stick with an 1858 type and avoid brass frames. While Colt types look cool, everything equal, they'll never shoot as well as an 1858 type. Nearly every repop has issues in manufacture that mitigate against accuracy out of the box. It's almost a case of you get what you pay for in that area. Most cylinders are bored undersized relative to the bore size meaning your bullets are sized down below optimum size for accuracy before they ever get through the barrel. Timing can be off just a bit. Not enough to make them unsafe, but enough to affect accuracy. They nearly all shoot about 18in high out of the box. That is entirely NORMAL as troops back then were trained to aim at the "big middle" so a hit going high still was on target even out to about 50yds in a revolver.

One further comment, avoid substitutes like Pyrodex if at all possible. Get good components like caps, lube, and powder.

 

[whughett]

View attachment 878692

Set up correctly, Italian copies can go toe to toe with ROAs. In fact, ROAs get "upgraded" on a normal basis as well. In the end, the money will be about the same.
This stainless Remington has a coil sprung action, a bolt block and an action stop. With all the other parts "enhancements", it will go head to head (or toe to toe !!) with the ROA.

Mike

Yes but that requires extensive alterations by knowledgeable craftspeople at extra cost and a considerable wait time. Out of the box new, not a chance and it will still have no resell value beyond its initial cost. Just my two cents worth.

Of course this whole thread is a Chevy, Ford, Ram or foreign pick up debate.

 

[rodwha]

My 5.5” NMA shoots a couple of inches low at 15 yds even with my bullets. And this is good because the sight can be filed down to raise the POI.

 

[dave951]

Yes but that requires extensive alterations by knowledgeable craftspeople at extra cost and a considerable wait time. Out of the box new, not a chance and it will still have no resell value beyond its initial cost. Just my two cents worth.

Of course this whole thread is a Chevy, Ford, Ram or foreign pick up debate.

Absolutely. The ROA is probably the best modern production cap n ball revolver out there. The repops all suffer from short cuts in manufacturing. There are a couple guys in the NSSA who accurize revolvers and there are NO stock repops that can even get close to the accuracy that a worked over gun can deliver. Now if you put a ROA up against an accurized 1858 from an NSSA smith and it's going to go to the NSSA gun. Is the ROA worth more in resale? To some people who want purely stock, yes. If you're interested in competition and get a worked over gun with a target grade barrel, 11deg forcing cone, proper timing, counterbored cylinders, trigger job, then the ROA isn't on the menu. It depends on what you're wanting.

 

[bannockburn]

I really like the Colt Model 1860 and the Remington New Model Navy so I got them both! For a percussion rifle I have a Traditions Hawken style .50 caliber which I built from a kit. Lots of fun putting it together with no great building expertise required.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Let's see, just for giggles, Pietta Remingtons go on sale typically for $250. I do a full on tune which includes a coil handspring, coil trigger spring and a coil bolt spring for $220 (hard to believe anybody would change for such . . . ). That gets you to $470.
A fixed sight (non adjustable) ROA will run from $750 - $850.

So, you can spend a little over half the money and have a lighter but just as tough /reliable revolver or save more pennies and get a fixed sighted Ruger (I tune those too, same money, makes no difference to me!! ). Whether you can sell it for more remains to be seen, the point is . . . the customer will have a "bullet proof", fixed sighted revolver - no matter which revolver you choose!!

Mike

 

[desmobob]

I'm not sure what I'd do with it yet, beyond target shooting and plinking, but that's mostly what I do with my cartridge guns, so it stands to reason. I'm looking at two categories, rifle and pistol (because I know I'll want one of each). I definitely am interested only in percussion, not flintlocks.

For a rifle, should it be a traditional design, or a modern inline model? What caliber is best for casual target shhoting/plinking? I don't want to spend a fortune on bullets; is any particular caliber the cheapest to shoot? I haven't seen any rifles below .45, are smaller calibers easy to find? Do they cost more?

For pistols, single shot or revolver? If revolver, what caliber is simplest to learn on, or does it not really matter? Colt style or Remington style? Steel frame or brass? (Do brass frames actually stretch?) Do pistols require a finer powder that is harder to find?

I appreciate any and all responses.

All I can say is, you are in for some fun!

I bought my first blackpowder firearm to take advantage of the muzzle-loading hunting seasons in my state. I picked a Hawken because I thought it would look nice hanging on the wall in the off-season. My only regret was not picking something even prettier, like a Pennsylvania or Kentucky style rifle.

Later, out of historical interest, I added a Pattern 53 Enfield to shoot for fun at the range and to hang over the fireplace. After that came an Uberti 1861 Colt revolver, which has been the most fun of all! (Yes; get a steel frame.) I can use the same 3F granulation powder in all of them.

There are a lot of nice blackpowder firearms to chose from. I suggest you consider your historical or aesthetic preferences and then check out some online reviews to make a choice of particular models.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I started w a ruger old army
U can safely make many mistakes without concern

 

[Ironhand54]

I have a different approach. Start with a inexpensive single shot pistol such as the Philadelphia Derringer.




They can be bought cheap used, require minimal equipment, and are fun to shoot. You can learn the basics, try out black powder shooting and later make informed decisions about what guns to buy next. As an added bonus the Derringer is a civil war era gun.

Another cheap cival war pistol would be the New Orleans Ace boot pistol.



IronHand

 

[rodwha]

While a small pistol would be fun I feel that a fair level of accuracy is much better for someone who’s just getting started.

 

[arcticap]

I have one of these Traditions Deerhunter .50 rifles with a 24" barrel.
Right now Bud's Guns has an amazing deal on it with a synthetic stock for $216. ---->>>> https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/713077353/traditions+deerhunter+rifle
Most user reviews of it from any vendor website give it a 5 star rating.
A Lyman Deerstalker costs about $500.
With the cost savings a person could afford to buy a new Pietta Remington revolver too.
A person doesn't need to spend a lot of money to have loads of fun with a muzzle loader.
Only a few accessories are needed and some can be home made.

 

[1KPerDay]

Hard to beat a Colt navy as a first pistol. I like the .44 Army better as I prefer the grips and the thump, but my Pietta navy steel frame has been excellent.

all of my 6 Piettas (2 1860s, 2 NMAs, 1851 and a “.44 Navy”) and my Uberti Walker have been excellent, And all I have done has been to load them up and shoot them. I’m sure goon’s or others could fluff and buff them and make them more reliable when shot fast or hard and prevent more cap jams, but if I turn my hand to the right as I cock the hammer I find I prevent 99% of cap jams as the exploded cap just drops to the ground freely.

here’s my basic video of what you need to get started. Just my opinion and I’d definitely take the advice of the graybeards here.



As for black powder rifle personally I’d get a Lyman Great Plains or an old CVA Hawken or Mountain rifle or trade rifle because that’s what I know. If you’re into the civil war though you might pony up for a Springfield or Enfield. I still haven’t gotten one of those.

 

[Mike OTDP]

As several other people have mentioned, you get what you pay for. There's a vast difference between a plinker-grade gun and serious match hardware.

My advice for a complete novice...

Rifle: Percussion, traditional design. Avoid the inlines, they are set up for expensive hunting sabots. Shoot patched round ball. You can feed a rifle-musket round balls, though they are not designed for them. I'd tend to get a Pedersoli rifle and have done with it, but I've also heard good things about the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. .54 is fashionable...but .45 is a better all-around shooter.

Pistol: Percussion, single-shot. The Pedersoli LePage is a good pick, if it fits your hand. Revolvers are fixer-upper propositions until you hit the Pedersoli Remington - and even then, expect to tweak. The Ruger Old Army revolvers are good, although I'd take a full-house match Remington over a Ruger.

Powder: For a novice, Goex 3F is hard to beat. It's a good powder at a good price, with good availability. Don't waste your time with the substitutes, please.

Big advice: Mentoring is very, very useful. An experienced BP shooter can get you through the startup period quickly. These guns aren't that hard to shoot, but they demand more of the shooter than cartridge guns. On the other hand, you don't have to play "Hunchback of Notre Dame" picking up brass.

 

[Ironhand54]

When ever one of these posts come up, in any forum, there are always a certain number of responses that advocate buying high dollar guns because of the quality. These responses may be valid, for an experienced shooter, but they miss the point of the question.

The beginner wants to have fun and learn. He may not have, or want to spend, a lot of money on something he's not even sure he will like. If he can that's fine but most can't.

Let them get hooked on a simple, affordable gun and they will be back for the better stuff soon enough.

Climbing down off of my soap box
IronHand

 

[748]

Something with a stainless barrel, not that it will stop all the rust.

 

[LaneP]

For me, black powder has always been about traditional designs. I know modern in line's have a place, they just aren't for me. I started in the 70's shooting an original Parker 10 gauge double barrel caplock made in the 1850's (still in the family), then moved on to a host of budget priced CVA "Kentucky" style rifles and pistols. Then came cheapie Italian made percussion revolvers. The steel was soft as butter and the wedges deformed under the stress of loading, but they were fun to shoot and I could legally buy them before I was old enough to legally purchase a cartridge handgun.

We are fortunate that in this age the variety of reproduction BP guns has never been better and with a little shopping around the quality of some makers rivals that of anything ever made.

Good suggestions have been made. Which way you go depends on budget and how badly you get bitten by the bug.

 

[david58]

I would like to second the idea of a TC Hawken. Though not historically accurate in architecture, they shoot well. If you look, you should be able to find one with a bright or adequate bore for $250 or less. I won lots of shoots against custom rifles AT SHORT TO MODERATE range - long range took too much powder, and accuracy suffered due to using PRB in the shallow rifling. But a good percussion TC is a good rifle - still have mine, assembled in 1986 - a good hunting and play toy.

As to pistols, my answer remains the same - "I dunno..."

 

[AJumbo]

I got into the sport with a rifle, and would recommend the same for most anybody. Fun to plink with, suitable for hunting, you get to learn the scientific process of load development, plus you're introduced to the ins and outs of cleaning a firearm that uses corrosive priming and powder. I moved on from my rifle to a shotgun (no real use of care differences there) and then into revolvers with alllllllll those nooks and crannies.

 

[Plastikosmd]

My point was not to advocate for the high dollar ROA in respect to value rather the safety factor.
I made many mistakes early on

 

[stillquietvoice]

I've had several 58 rem Pietra pistols, a 47 colt walker, and a Pietra 51 us marshal 44 cal. The marshal was 44 cal built on a 36 cal frame. I'd stay away from this combination because it uses a 36 cal ram to insert 44 cal balls placing the ram off-center to the ball. I did civil war reenactments and fired thousands of blank rounds. The hardest to load was the marshal if it wasn't packed tight enough it would chain fire. All cylinders went up at once.

I use grits over my 3f or 2f powder charges then seat the ball. Works well it's less messy than greasing.

As was mentioned earlier use only black powder it rusts less than powder subistutes in my experience.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

You might look here https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index.../312/category_chain/312/name/Guns+&+Gun+Kits/
I have built three long guns and two pistols from Pedersoli kits which I purchased from Dixie. If you are not particular as to the model they rotate what they have on special and sometimes you can pick up a real bargain. You would need some basic woodworking and metal finishing tools as well as the skills to use them but the finished product can be better than a purchased one. As has been stated, once you buy one they seem to multiply...