What's The Fuss About?.....

[Dave McCracken]

Part of the fun of being the kindly old grey headed shotgun mentor and BB Mod is the number of shotguns I get to try out.

No, the makers are not shipping me new models to try out and to praise in print, darn it.

But, I get handed a variety of guns at the local range and get asked what I think. Lots of these have been 870 Expresses.....

After all, the 870 is the most popular civilian arm ever made, The Express alone has more units out there than the Model 12, 37,500, 1200,and 1300 combined.

BTW, if you know all those numbers, you just might be a pump shotgun nut.

Part of the hassle of being the kindly,old,etc,is having to deal with a variety of folks badmouthing the Express and decrying poor QC at Remington and the continued decaying of fine workmanship,finish,fit, and the appreciation thereof.

Some of these folks may have validity. I'm calling no one a liar.

Yet. But I do have to wonder....

I've been doing live shotgun 101 formally and informally for quite a while. In that time, I've handled maybe 25 different Expresses and shot a few rounds from same. They have all gone bang on command and smashed clays when I do my part.

None have shown any probs digesting the ammo at hand, none have thrown operating tantrums and all seem capable of doing the job.

I recall one barrel not bored/threaded concentrically so the tube was significantly off and so were the shots. It was returned to the maker and replaced with a better one.Promptly.

Today was the latest episode. A young fellow showed up at PGC with two friends. He had bought an 870 Super mag and was trying it out for the first time. He didn't even know that all you needed to do to chamber a round was drop it in and shut the action, he was so new to this.

His gun was standard, laminated stock, 28" barrel, matte finish. You can't go more generic. His ammo was generic also, Gun Clubs or similar.

After a round or so, when he wasn't hitting much, I tried it out. I used some Gun Clubs I had and a couple of my reloads. Targets broke quite nicely from the 16 yard line. The owner was a lanky sort and rather tall, say 6'4". He needed more stock than he had. An old slip on pad was kicking around the range box waiting to be loved, so I arranged the adoption. His scores went up dramatically, another win for proper fit.

I noted a few things about his Express......

The laminated stock is not a thing of beauty, but it works and is properly shaped for most folks. I would like to see some rough areas for friction, but I expect skateboard tape will have to do.

The trigger broke clean at an estimated 4.5 lbs,lighter than those on my B gun.That's in the ballpark with my 870s. They run just under 4 lbs to 5.

While this was a brand new gun, with less than 50 rounds through it when I shot it, it shucked very well. Not as slick as mine,but it would take a stopwatch and timer to tell. The Supermags are reputed to be a bit finicky, but this one shucked like a veteran Wingmaster. A thousand rounds or so and it should be like butter.

As for the plastic parts, none broke, nor do I expect any to do so.

And today was a bit moist, but I did not see any rust forming on that Express.

Also, that ammo I used in the Express, the Gun Clubs, gives Number Six, a 1955 WM with a newer LC barrel conniptions. The Express handled it without a burp.

So, all of you naysayers who dump on the Expresses, bring yours around here. All those that lock up, fail to feed, fail to extract, and fail to hit everything you point it in the general direction of....

Bring them here, Have I got a deal for you .....

 

[ReloaderFred]

Well stated, and that's been my experience, too.

Fred

 

[SKILCZ]

Great post. I'm new to shotguns & have read about a million + 1 "870 vs. 500" threads via the search function. Reading them led me to believe that the 870 got the edge over the 500 in the Wingmaster days, but that the Express models were/are significantly worse. Good to know that even the Expresses go bang every time in experienced hands.

BTW, I love your '101' posts & appreciate the time you took to write them!

 

[Gord]

Expresses are just fine. It's been a while since I fired them both side-by-side for comparison, but my Express 12 doesn't feel significantly grittier or low-grade than Grandpa's well-loved, late '60s-era Wingmaster 20. Could be that I've actually used the thing rather than hung a bunch of goofy stuff off of it for glossy internet pictures, but who knows.

Rust? I used Dave's or Lee's Vaseline trick - regrettably, I forget who suggested that one - and my boomstick's had not a speck of rust develop over the past two years or so of being taken out plenty in the rain and snow.

As to the 500, I like the tang safety, and other than that I'm not a big fan of how much more than an 870 they rattle and clunk. Others feel the same way about the 870 itself. To each his own - as long as it works for your purposes and goes bang when you need it to you've got yourself a fine weapon.

 

[mljdeckard]

My Express is truly monotonous. No interesting stories to tell, unless going bang every time is a story. I'm not concerned about fit and finish on a gun I bought SPECIFICALLY to beat the crap out of.

I cranked through almost two straight cases of S&B birdshot one saturday. The thing was so hot I had to put it down, but it did not hiccup once. Crawling through the sagebrush, in the back of the truck with the wet dog, 15 degrees, 110 degrees, doesn't matter.

 

[DPris]

The concerns some of us have, myself included, are not about initial function, the plastic triggerguard assembly, or even rust, in the Express models.
My own personal concern is about longevity.

My primary 870 is a 12-year-old Express shortened to 14 inches & worked over by the old original Scattergun Technologies outfit before Wilson bought 'em out. It's not the same gun as the current Express model in terms of some of the parts' quality. I bought it instead of a fancier Wingmaster because I didn't care about polished blue or pretty walnut, but did care about the same quality guts.
It is what I'd term a "professional" gun, built for very serious purposes & intended to hold up over the rest of my life. That may run into a sizable number of rounds through it. It was not bought or built for casual use or recreation, it was bought to save my butt at work when I wore a uniform.

The current Express models (including the one I worked with last year) do function. But, I hear mentions of premature wear on the MIM extractor, and I'd prefer to stay with the heavier-duty springs of the higher-dollar police models.
Remington builds the Express models to sell at a certain price point, for casual use & sporting purposes. Remington builds the police models to hold up & save LE lives.
There's a difference, both in the guns themselves and in the philosophies behind them.

The Expresses go bang, but possibly not as long without maintenance or as well under harsh conditions as the more expensive versions of the 870.

My Scattergun Tech, my Vang-rebuilt Highway Patrol trade-in, and my top-of-the-cop-line PMax are all here to travel into the wilds & elsewhere with me nowdays in various capacities as purely & entirely defensive tools. They don't see a skeet range & they don't hunt. They MUST work if needed. If they don't, it's not a missed ashtray or a missed pheasant, it's my life.

The Express, like any other "economy" grade line, will perform to a certain level. If it meets your needs, there's absolutely nothing wrong with buying one.
If you require a higher level, as I do, there's nothing wrong in moving up, either.

Denis

 

[RandKL]

The Express alone has more units out there than the Model 12, 37,500, 1200,and 1300 combined.

I'd love to see your numbers on those. Mine don't agree, but that's not uncommon.

rich

 

[SwampWolf]

I don't necessarily agree either but Remington recently did crank out their ten millionth 870.

 

[Virginian]

Another good point about being more mature is you can afford to be a bit unfashionable when it strikes your fancy. Currently it seems to me it is quite unfashionable not to bash Remington. So I guess I will just have to go on being unfashionable, too.

 

[content]

QC // Memory of Failures Run Deep

Hello friends and neighbors // I think it is mostly luck of the draw.

Did you purchase a shotgun in which ALL the parts matched well? Lucky day for you.

Without going into names and such, I've purchased new shotguns that had problems.
I no longer buy these brands.

I have never had a problem with my 870 Wingmaster, or my 870 Express Tac. so I would buy another and encourage others to do the same.

I am sure other folks have had the exact opposite results and avoid the 870 series.

When a product I am counting on to provide--- Food,SD,HD ---Fails Mechanically---there is no way to reset my brains trust factor.

 

[PJR]

The problem with declining QC is that the item still might be a good product but that more inferior examples get onto the market.

In the pre-Internet era these would be word-of-mouth stories passed around at the gun club. Today with international communication at our fingertips opinions get spread much wider for better or worse.

Having owned Remington rifles and shotguns (including an Express) produced between 1977 and 2005 it's clear from the examples I have owned that their QC has suffered badly. I don't believe that I am unlucky enough to get the few bad ones but that there are more bad ones in circulation. These would be the guns in an earlier era that would have been sent back to be made right BEFORE leaving the factory.

The problem however is not exclusive to Remington. I've seen declining attention to fit and finish in guns that I've owned from Sako, Beretta, Winchester, Marlin, Perazzi, S&W and Colt.

We see and hear about the Remington problems more often because there are more Remingtons and with a reduced level of quality control more substandard Remingtons are in circulation.

 

[dak0ta]

I owned a 2007 Express. It worked, fired everything I put through it, but it didn't swing as nicely as a Wingmaster LC barrel. Plus the barrel had some jagged "saw-like" pattern on the vent rib which would eat up my rag. Same with the finish.

In my experience, the gun worked, but it was a pain to maintain it.

 

[ArmedBear]

The Express goes bang every time. And Montezuma Tequila will get you drunk every time.

Sooner or later, they both lose their appeal, although I guess that, after you shoot the Express, at least you don't want to die the next morning.

 

[Leaky Waders]

LOL my friend mocks me nearly daily for the advice I gave him prior to his express purchase featured in this thread...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=424646&highlight=870

I bought my youngest a model 700 this past weekend in 223. Upon seeing my 870 friend at work and him asking what I did this weekend all he could say was "Really? You actually bought something from Remington?"

I guess it's once bit twice shy - and I can't blame him.

 

[jmortimer]

The only current production pump shotgun that has a multitude of threads about jamming is the current production 870 Express. Those who own them or love them have a vested interest in pretending that the many many threads including ones on this site are not "real" and all the threads about the poor fit and (internal) finish and about the current production 870 express being "jam-O-matics" are lies. All the threads about jamming with Wal Mart bulk Winchester ammunition are lies even though every other pump digests them with ease. Let's play pretend - "Boy the current production 870 express shotguns are awesome - they digest all ammunition and never jam. What a great gun."

 

[plumberroy]

If there truly was that many bad guns coming from a manufacturer they would quit selling In these days of internet we just here of more . plus I think people are some times nit picking heck I have a rossi22/410 set that cost $99 new It ain't pretty And it ain't a work of art but it doesa fine job of killin thing that like to eat chicken and steal my veggies out of the garden . It also does all right on doves

 

[Virginian]

Just for the record, I do not own an Express, and would not. I did own one about 23 years ago - not my cup of tea, and they were a lot more well finished back then. All my Remingtons eat the Winchester Universals, but they half rip the heads off some of them ejecting them. And I have seen way more than one Mossberg, one Winchester, two Benellis, and one BPS being beat on the ground trying to eject said Winchester shells at the range, so don't tell me every other shotgun digests them with ease, because that ain't so.
Somewhere all those "Cost of Quality" programs got canned, and all the gun makers figured out it was cheaper to have the customer do the final inspection on their cheaper models.
In every thread I have read, on this board and others, where someone is seeking input on buying a shotgun, and they mention price, if they do come back and say, they bought the cheaper gun. The WalMartization of America is complete.

 

[mljdeckard]

jmortimer-

When it is by far the most common and popular shotgun on the market, OF COURSE there are going to be more reports of problems. This does not equal a higher RATE of failures.

 

[RandKL]

If there truly was that many bad guns coming from a manufacturer they would quit selling

Well, in all actuality, according to the fed gov numbers, Remington's shotgun sales have been on a pronounced downward trend since 2004 if I recall correctly. It times out pretty closely with the large numbers of complaints in the past few years. I believe it was 2005, maybe 06 when Mossberg took over the most annual sales title.

rich

 

[RandKL]

When it is by far the most common and popular shotgun on the market

It's too easy to toss those quantitatives in there, Deck, that can't be backed by reality. Without numbers, your statement can't be backed at all.

It may have the most total sales....but that's no diff than saying the old VW Beetle had the most sales, too. It can't in, any way, be described as "when it is by far the most common and popular car on the market", though. Too many folks fail to realize that distinction.

rich

 

[mljdeckard]

Out of apathy, I'll leave it to anyone else to prove that it isn't.

 

[ArmedBear]

When it is by far the most common and popular shotgun on the market, OF COURSE there are going to be more reports of problems. This does not equal a higher RATE of failures.

That is true.

It is also true, however, that Remington sells a lot of guns due to name recognition, not on the merits of its products. I know that, when I bought Remingtons, I really didn't know what I was buying. Frankly, my Express was a decent value. But I didn't know that until AFTER I bought it.

Chevrolet did that for at least two decades. I don't think they made a car that was truly worth buying, for at least that long. Someone's grandpa had a Chevy, he doesn't know crap about cars, but he knows "Chevrolet" so he buys one. This phenomenon is alive and well in the gun market. Grandpa had a Remington, so that's what some buyers want, too. Ask any gun dealer on here (unless they have a high-end shotgun shop or something).

Winchester milked its name for 40+ years. They made guns that resembled 94s and 70s, but sooner or later, people caught on. The new Winchester makes better guns again -- not necessarily perfect, but they are good on their merits. The Winchester brand had been so tarnished by then, that it had to be built up again, almost from scratch.

Eventually, the reality of their products caught up with GM, and Winchester. And this reality will catch up with Remington, too. It takes a while -- in the Internet Age, though, I suspect it won't take as long.

Marlin and Ruger are two companies that never had that "name" thing going for them. They've had to survive on the desirability of their products. Love them, hate them, or have mixed feelings about them, Ruger and Marlin had to earn their customers. IMO the 10/22 isn't the gun that built its reputation, any more. Some people are waking up to that, and I've sure heard it at the range. So maybe Ruger will have to learn the hard way, too, but I'm not sure what the competition will be, now.

So... A very popular gun may have more reported problems in raw terms. That doesn't mean that those problems aren't real, though.

 

[MattTheHat]

A few months ago I picked up a 1952 Wingmaster for AndyJ here on the forum. When I saw the job he'd done refinishing the stock, I had to have it, despite the 30" barrel I really have no need for. I'd originally planned to lop that sucker down and add a magazine extension. But I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

So I picked up a new 870 Express on the way home Friday. Having read the horror stories, I wasn't sure what to expect. I was, however, pleasantly surprised. Don't get me wrong, the black paint doesn't do much for me, nor does the plastic furniture (already found some real furniture).

But comparing the action from the very well used Wingmaster to that of the unused Express, I guess I was very pleasantly surprised.


-Matt

 

[ArmedBear]

That Wingmaster must have been a rustbucket internally. Having owned an Express for a while -- it's quite broken in -- and tried a number of Wingmasters of various vintages from 1950 to a few years old, I can't think of a single Wingmaster that didn't blow the Express out of the water for smooth operation. The LC barrel handles a lot better, too.

I don't know that I'd spend good money on a pump gun right now, but the Wingmaster really does offer more than a pretty face, for the extra dough.

 

[Youngster]

I've never understood the idea behind trying to save maybe a few hundred bucks on a gun that will be with you for the long haul, a semi-disposable "stunt double" of a beater is one thing but IMO it's not worth taking the sharp quality hit that the current Express represents otherwise.