What's The Fuss About?.....

[axeman_g]

Mcgunner... that stuck ammo I found was usually the expended brass locking up the action for a second or two in some guns. Shot fired, cheap brass expands for split second, cools and contracts, slide unsticks. Happened alot in an Ithaca37 with cheap Rem ammo. I had an 870 it would happen to with S&B. Funny thing I dont hear about this more... maybe i am nuts.

 

[Dave McCracken]

As much as I like 870s of any sort, I do not regard them as the smoothest shuckers.

That would be either the Model 12 or Remington's old31, with the Ithaca and High Standard next.

The venerable 97,even when nicely work polished, takes a bit more effort to cycle than most. Must be all of those overbuilt JMB parts.

Maybe so,Throd, though I believe Britain is bettered by your presence.

 

[farscott]

Dave,

I have never fired (or even seen) a Remington 31 or the High Standard, but I agree that the M12 is smoother, followed by the Ithaca/Browning BPS. Then the Wingmaster.

As far as used Wingmasters, I tend to see one WM for every three or four Express guns at the local pawn shops. I try to buy every WM, regardless of gauge, chamber, or choke, that costs under $200 if it is not too beat.

 

[ArmedBear]

I have never fired (or even seen) a Remington 31

If you do, you might start looking for those instead of Wingmasters. IMO, they're a hair smooter than Model 12s, with similar handling. They're far less common, though.

Remington became a completely different company after WW II. They incorporated lessons learned from wartime production, to produce good products for much lower prices than previous production methods allowed. However, there's no free lunch. The parts of a Wingmaster will never add up to a Model 31 -- but the Wingmaster performs, and Remington was able to undercut the contemporary Model 12 by half of its price.

 

[inSight-NEO]

Realistically, the Express is a shotgun that will do the job, reliably, for a long time, and costs a fraction of the price of a shotgun with better-quality parts, fit, finish, balance, etc. If you want more than the Express has to offer, then go spend a bit more, and get it. There's no reason to pretend the Express is something it's not. Its genuine merits are sufficient for its price.

I understand what you mean. However, regarding current/new pump shotguns, a "feature rich" Express really isn't all that much cheaper than say, a Benelli SuperNova [tactical, for instance] or a Mossberg (590, for instance); Not enough to justify things at least.

So, I stand by my belief that, for the money, there are much better pump shotguns to be had. But, I'm not really approaching this from a "hunters" perspective, so it could simply be a matter of me looking for a certain type of weapon, thus making me somewhat bias. Who knows?

Having said this, however, I would not mind owning an 870 Police [better QC on these] one day.

See..I am not such a staunch 870 critic after all!

 

[mljdeckard]

One afternoon me, my dad, and my brother went out to bust clays. I took my 870, my brother has a model 12, my dad had his old '97.

Now the model 12 was an old one my brother got in a pawn shop. I don't remember it being particularly smooth, but I have no idea what the history of the gun was or if he maintained it well. What I really remember was that it had a LOT more felt recoil than my 870. (He got rid of it soon after when he went into the army.)

My 870 shot most of the shells that day, it was the one we didn't mind working to death and hammering.

My dad has two '97s, one in 12 and one in 16. The 12 is gorgeous, he had it restored and rebuilt some time ago, and all the lockwork makes pleasant sounds when it's cycled. I never thought about it until Dave said so, but I would guess that the reason it takes a bit more push is that it is cocking the hammer, and it will only be as smooth at that spring lets it be. The 16 is trashed. Many years ago a shirttail relative was using it, slipped into the mud and fired it, blossoming the barrel. My grandfather sawed it off and filed it even. There is a chip missing out of the length of the wood on the pump, and it needs a rebuild of all of the guts. That one is NOT pleasant to shoot. One day I'm going to steal it from him and have it put back together, we need a good 16 in the locker.

 

[MCgunner]

So, I stand by my belief that, for the money, there are much better pump shotguns to be had. But, I'm not really approaching this from a "hunters" perspective, so it could simply be a matter of me looking for a certain type of weapon, thus making me somewhat bias. Who knows?

That is probably the case. I have little or no use for tacticool shotguns. I'm a bird hunter. For hunters and clays shooters, ergos, handling, and fit are far more important than do dads and add ons. And, everyone has different dimensions where fit is concerned. But, to a large extent, a pump can be fitted to the shooter, bonus over a SxS or O/U.

 

[gunsandreligion]

What I think the big fuss is, is that I can pick a maverick 88 up for $200 new or a 870 for $320 new. The 88 will work when I want it to, the 870 will work after I free up the slide from the mag tube and remove the rust, or replace the extracter/fp spring, or free up the bolt lug ect... I will not buy another new remington. It will not affect big green. It will affect me (for the better). So what, I do not care if someone reads the latest issue of some hunting magazine about how great a untested gun is and buy it. As long as I dont waste my time and money it doesn't matter to me wheather you like yours or not.

anyway, rant over.

 

[throdgrain]

Nice of you to say Dave

 

[SwampWolf]

The parts of a Wingmaster will never add up to a Model 31 -- but the Wingmaster performs, and Remington was able to undercut the contemporary Model 12 by half of its price.

Though the gist of your point is well taken, the price disparity existing between the competing pump shotguns at the time was not nearly as drastic as "half." For example, shortly after the Remington Model 870 was introduced, it sold for $69.95. During the same time period (1951), the Winchester Model 12 sold for $84.95 and the Ithaca Model 37 went for $78.93. In 1963, the last year the Model 12 was made, it sold for $109.15; while the model 870 sold for $94.95 and the Model 37 again sold for a price between its two competitors @ $99.95.
If it had been me deciding between a Model 12 and a Model 870 in 1963, even given the fact that the dollar was worth a lot more at the time, I would have gladly ponied up the extra $14.20 to get the Winchester. Though I couldn't have known it at the time of course, that additional fifteen dollars or so more for the Model 12 would have given me a far better return for my money in today's market (over the 870). If only we had a crystal ball in those pre-64 Winchester days...

 

[oneounceload]

a pump can be fitted to the shooter, bonus over a SxS or O/U.

Actually, on your better SxS and O/U guns, the stocks are made to fit the shooter; if you buy one off the shelf, the ability to add one of the many devices for adjusting stock dimensions are typically used all the time, especially for target O/Us.

 

[ArmedBear]

In 1963, the last year the Model 12 was made, it sold for $109.15; while the model 870 sold for $94.95 and the Model 37 again sold for a price between its two competitors @ $99.95.

H. L. Mencken was, as usual, correct. “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.”

Thanks for the info. I had always heard that the 870 was about half the price of a Model 12. Wow. To save $14.20, people in droves chose the 870 over the Model 12. To save 5 bucks, they picked it over the 37.

That explains a lot about American elections, I guess. (Can you tell I'm a fan of Mencken and Clemens?)

a pump can be fitted to the shooter

So can a noose.

 

[farscott]

If it had been me deciding between a Model 12 and a Model 870 in 1963, even given the fact that the dollar was worth a lot more at the time, I would have gladly ponied up the extra $14.20 to get the Winchester.

To us, it is $14.20. On the other hand, a 1963 dime worth ten cents is now worth $1.27 just for the silver. In 1963, the dime was considered to have less than ten cents in silver, so if anything the following numbers will be too low.

$14.20 in 1963 is worth at least $180 today if we use the price of silver as a means to estimate the difference in the purchasing power of the dollar from 1963 to today. That is a big enough delta to see why people chose the 870 over the M12. $14.20 in 1963 bought a lot more than it does today.

Conversely, a M12 bought in 1963 for $109.15 would cost about $1385 today if the amount of silver in a dime is used to figure the costs.

 

[Virginian]

Brace yourself, there are a whole bunch of us who bought the Model 870 way back then because we liked them better; money had nothing to do with it. A BDL Wingmaster with a vent rib barrel was and is a joy to shoot. It feels a lot different than a Model 12, and plenty of people do not like the bottom loading of the 37 (or the BPS for that matter) A lot of people seem to have selective memories too. The Model 12 and 37 both had a pretty decent failure rate, and the fixes usually required a gunsmith's talents. Those hand fitted parts required close fitting, and wear didn't always just smooth them up. I have a buddy who collects Model 12s and he has spent a fortune on gunsmiths, but he still loves them.
Of all the guns I have owned, for some reason I can shoot a Wingmaster best, and an 1100 is just a hair behind it.
I am a Remington fan, they just suit me, but I have also owned a few BPSs, which didn't make me swoon over the ergonomics, but they are very well made guns, and I think they are both as good as it gets in pumps.

 

[inSight-NEO]

That is probably the case. I have little or no use for tacticool shotguns. I'm a bird hunter. For hunters and clays shooters, ergos, handling, and fit are far more important than do dads and add ons. And, everyone has different dimensions where fit is concerned. But, to a large extent, a pump can be fitted to the shooter, bonus over a SxS or O/U.

I understand the point. But, "tacticool" shotguns are not always purchased as a platform for adding all sorts of useless crap. Nor do the "tacticool" guns skimp on the "fit." For instance, the only thing I have on my 590 (converted to an A1) is a tritium front bead. Tacticool? Maybe. But, only insofar as it is all black and sports a night sight. But, the gun also "fits" well and handles just fine for my purpose(s). Is it a bit heavy? Yeah. But, if I ever (God forbid) need to use this gun during a violent encounter, I doubt how well the gun "swings" is going to make all that much of a difference. That is, of course, I'm invaded by a flock of birds. Also, a barrel longer than 20" wont help matters any (when indoors).

 

[PJR]

For hunters and clays shooters, ergos, handling, and fit are far more important than do dads and add ons.

Not sure you can say that about clay target shooters. Lot's of little add on gadgets in that world. There's even a good case to be made that the vent rib is the ultimate clay target add on.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Scott, you'd like the 31. However, if I had one, or a Model 12,I'd want a decent smith close by. Handfitting and tight tolerances raise the chance of tantrums.

IMO, the Express makes lots of sense for the One Gun To Do It All Syndrome.It's a lot of covered bases for the money.

And, sad to say, I think some of the bashing occurs because some folks just HAVE to think theirs is better, bigger, more potent,etc.....

 

[ArmedBear]

Good point about the 12 and 31: the 870 is very reliable and easy to keep running. The 12 and 31 are nice examples of what a pump gun can be, but the Wingmaster was and is a more practical gun for heavy use.

However, Dave, if you look throught the thread, a lot of what you call "bashing" comes from Express owners who have had bad experiences.

My Express works fine. It swings like a pig, shucks like a gate latch, and the trigger is awful. But it's hell for reliable, and low-maint other than rust prevention, which requires some diligence. I'm thinking of putting an 18.5" barrel on it, because I trust it to go "bang" as much as any gun I have ever shot, and more than most. For hunting and clay playing, I wish I'd have sprung for a Wingmaster LC, though.

I own no other pump guns, and I sure don't get my ego boosts from what guns I might or might not own. I just don't think the Express is flawless, and I don't think it's a great "do everything" gun in 12 Gauge due to its handling. But the things work, and they're absolutely worth what they cost, which is still quite low for an American-made, reliable shotgun.

I also think that Remington has gone on for too long, relying on their past reputation, and that they had best get their act together. No, the 887 is not an example of "getting their act together," and the 105, which I have shot, and really liked shooting, is a tragedy. What a wonderful concept! Unfortunately, it seems Remington has discontinued it because they couldn't pull it together.

 

[Gord]

a lot of what you call "bashing" comes from Express owners who have had bad experiences.

Other than the ones who simply prefer the layout of (or are "Ford vs. Chevy" brand loyal to) Mossbergs, most of the griping against 870s that I've seen comes down to two recurring themes:

1) I bought a bunch of cheap Winchester ammo and it's giving me a ton of FTEs! I'm too much of an idiot to do a search, so I'm going to blame my gun!
2) I left my Express bone-dry [in a closet / propped up next to the bed / for a month after I dropped it in the river] and it's got some light surface rust! I'm too much of an idiot to do a search, so I'm going to blame my gun!

I've seen very few people actually complaining about the fit, finish or function of an Express (and one wonders what sort of Pythonesque craftsmanship those few were expecting for $250). By and large, the only gripes anyone seems to be able to muster are "finish sucks," "chamber sucks" and "My shotgun is made out of plastic."

 

[76shuvlinoff]

I (a lefty) bought my used express because a buddy needed the money. I don't hunt and don't bust clays and with a real boogered up shoulder that 12 can water my eyes after a few fast rounds. I keep it set up with a 20" smoothbore barrel and run mag of 00 rounds through it monthly, the rest of the time it rests within reach as HD gun of choice. I trust it plenty, so far I've never had a reason not to.

Yes the mossey ls more lefty friendly, I wish I had never sold mine but I was young....

I never understand the "lefty disadvantage" been one all my life things still work for me.

 

[ArmedBear]

Light surface rust? Yeah, right. Mine's been covered with it, and I treated that gun like I treat my others, none of which have rusted like that.

And the fact is, you can leave a Mossberg bone-dry by your bed without having it rust.

It's true: for $250 it's a reliable, functional shotgun. Just don't expect too much. And I'm one of the people who has chimed in and blamed the crap Winchester ammo; I don't blame the gun for that problem.

It's just funny how the game of Rumors transforms "it's rough but it works, and it's cheap" into "it's perfect!" fairly quickly.

 

[SuperNaut]

I got a perfect one, but based upon my friends 870's and the ones I saw in the class I took recently, I know I'm the exception. The others are just "good."

 

[Dave McCracken]

AB, put a new LC barrel on that Express and see the difference. As a reference, the Express barrel I had cut down to 21" weighs just as much cropped as the 30" LC does. Doing the swap will greatly improve handling.

As for bashing, an awful lot of Express complaints come from folks of limited experience.Those of us with time and effort in on this do not seem to get lemons often.

 

[ArmedBear]

Those of us with time and effort in on this do not seem to get lemons often.

The three shotgun aficianados who bought Expresses?

The LC barrel is nice, but so's the Wingmaster it's usually attached to. In addition to the rust problem, which is quite real -- and other makers do make a low-priced matte finish that resists rust much better -- the Express wood stock is poorly shaped, and the shooter's finger doesn't even line up properly with the trigger due to the grip angle. I think the Wingmaster LC is all around a better choice than a $275 barrel added to the Express, and I would recommend that to someone who wants a good pump gun that handles well.

People ought to recognize that the differences between the Express and the Wingmaster are not just aesthetic.

 

[Dave McCracken]

AB, I can think of at least 5 Expresses owned by my shooting buds.

I haven't seen any rust on them either,but I'm sure some do.

As for the stocks, they seem to be made to the same dimensions as the WM stocks, and fit a fair number of people well.

As for the barrel, mine ran much less than $275.