What is the point of the Marlin Camp Carbine? What is the point of a pistol that shoots 410 shells? Who cares why people enjoy the guns they do, just because you do not like them does not mean they are not liked by someone else. I do not own one but can think of several uses for it.
What's the point of AR-15 pistols?
- Thread starter steam.atomic
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Loosedhorse
member
I'm not sure. I would just suppose that if someone buys such a pistol for SD, he would probably be no more or less likely than any other pistol buyer to try to load it with ammo appropriate for SD use.
I see no reason to assume that a .223 pistol user interested in SD use would go for the cheapie ball ammo any more than a 9mm pistol user would do the same. Yet I don't hear anyone warning folks away from 9mm pistols in the way that we are hearing warnings against .223s.
If it matters: I'm an instructor, too. Since I'm not LE, the student chooses what pistol I instruct him on; therefore, I've tried to acquaint myself with many different kinds. If I were warning a student against a .223 pistol, I might have many reasons (muzzle blast for one); but potential terminal effectiveness is not one of my concerns.
I might even suggest some ammo for SD purposes.
Sorry.
fastbolt
Member
Yeah, it can be a bit difficult to try and read between the lines when it comes to narrative postings in online forums (versus being able to benefit from body language and vocal inflection).
I can understand your experience as a firearms instructor when it comes to working with what students have selected and brought to training.
While my primary focus and responsibility has been serving as a LE firearms instructor, I've also taught, or helped teach, a fair number of classes that were made up on non-LE. In those instances the students had already chosen and acquired their weapons. I was just there to work with them and the equipment they possessed, not to make judgments on their choices and equipment.
Of course, I feel pretty much the same way when it comes to working with LE and authorized secondary & off-duty weapons. In those circumstances, as long as it's approved, somebody's choice isn't really my business. It's not me that's going to have to use it they decide to invoke their peace officer status to take an official action on their own time, or protect themselves or their families. I don't make the rules. I just deal with trying to help them possess the requisite knowledge, training, skills and (hopefully) mindset to enable them to perform as necessary.
Sure, occasionally a student might discover they'd chosen something that was less than ideal for them, and might want to change to something else, but it wasn't at my prompting, or because I denigrated their choice. I was there to teach, not sell.
Of course, there were any number of times I'd wonder privately why some non-LE citizen owner might have chosen a .22 or .25 pistol as their dedicated defensive weapon, but in the long run it wasn't my business (or life that was ultimately going to be at stake, or the lives of my family). Sometimes you could see such folks compare their range performance against that of folks shooting centerfire calibers, or other handguns which were easier to use under stress, but then it would seem they'd somehow shrug off any concerns and express how it would work "good enough" for what they envisioned requiring.
And yet it's not hard to encounter a surprising (dismaying?) number of folks who feel 9mm ball isn't really going to be any "less effective" than some hollowpoint. Probably a more common perception among some .45 users ("a .45 never shrinks!"), granted.
Like you, I'd be more concerned with the inherent muzzle blast & flash signature issues for most average owners who tried to employ an AR handgun outside a range, especially within an enclosed environment. I've had a .357 Magnum fired next to my head inside a dwelling (no hearing loss/damage, miraculously), and it was an attention-getter, but a .223 (or especially a 5.56) going off close to me, especially inside a small room or hallway, is NOT something to which I'd wish to subject myself (or my family members).
In another vein, though, how hard is it to find folks who, for some reason, seem to equate muzzle blast/flash with "power" & "effectiveness"?
Those are the folks who might not realize the diminished potential for the type of yaw/destabilization to occur (that's connected with violent fragmentation) when velocity is lost in really short AR barrels. I remember it being an eye opener for some folks many years ago when we were testing some different loads/bullet weights out of an 14.5" AR. The rounds that were ordinarily pretty effective when fired out of longer barrels didn't do so well in the shorter barrel (denim/gel & windshield glass/denim/gel testing). One of the heavier bullets did surprisingly well, though.
In subsequent years, when there was talk of adding some AR models with even shorter barrels, I didn't get involved in further testing, but I remember a couple of the other instructors interested in the subject were considering potential loads and bullet weights that wouldn't be as likely to compromise actual terminal effectiveness when really short barrels were used. We're talking barrels down in the 10.3" length, and with 1/7 twist rates (which creates another concern affecting bullet weights used).
Of course, using such a unique pistol for a critter or varmint gun might suit some folks just fine.
Then again, the Remington XP-100 & XP-100R seemed to have attracted enough interested owners. Probably not for a dedicated self defense weapon, though.
Best regards.
I can understand your experience as a firearms instructor when it comes to working with what students have selected and brought to training.
While my primary focus and responsibility has been serving as a LE firearms instructor, I've also taught, or helped teach, a fair number of classes that were made up on non-LE. In those instances the students had already chosen and acquired their weapons. I was just there to work with them and the equipment they possessed, not to make judgments on their choices and equipment.
Of course, I feel pretty much the same way when it comes to working with LE and authorized secondary & off-duty weapons. In those circumstances, as long as it's approved, somebody's choice isn't really my business. It's not me that's going to have to use it they decide to invoke their peace officer status to take an official action on their own time, or protect themselves or their families. I don't make the rules. I just deal with trying to help them possess the requisite knowledge, training, skills and (hopefully) mindset to enable them to perform as necessary.
Sure, occasionally a student might discover they'd chosen something that was less than ideal for them, and might want to change to something else, but it wasn't at my prompting, or because I denigrated their choice. I was there to teach, not sell.
Of course, there were any number of times I'd wonder privately why some non-LE citizen owner might have chosen a .22 or .25 pistol as their dedicated defensive weapon, but in the long run it wasn't my business (or life that was ultimately going to be at stake, or the lives of my family). Sometimes you could see such folks compare their range performance against that of folks shooting centerfire calibers, or other handguns which were easier to use under stress, but then it would seem they'd somehow shrug off any concerns and express how it would work "good enough" for what they envisioned requiring.
And yet it's not hard to encounter a surprising (dismaying?) number of folks who feel 9mm ball isn't really going to be any "less effective" than some hollowpoint. Probably a more common perception among some .45 users ("a .45 never shrinks!"), granted.
Like you, I'd be more concerned with the inherent muzzle blast & flash signature issues for most average owners who tried to employ an AR handgun outside a range, especially within an enclosed environment. I've had a .357 Magnum fired next to my head inside a dwelling (no hearing loss/damage, miraculously), and it was an attention-getter, but a .223 (or especially a 5.56) going off close to me, especially inside a small room or hallway, is NOT something to which I'd wish to subject myself (or my family members).
In another vein, though, how hard is it to find folks who, for some reason, seem to equate muzzle blast/flash with "power" & "effectiveness"?
Those are the folks who might not realize the diminished potential for the type of yaw/destabilization to occur (that's connected with violent fragmentation) when velocity is lost in really short AR barrels. I remember it being an eye opener for some folks many years ago when we were testing some different loads/bullet weights out of an 14.5" AR. The rounds that were ordinarily pretty effective when fired out of longer barrels didn't do so well in the shorter barrel (denim/gel & windshield glass/denim/gel testing). One of the heavier bullets did surprisingly well, though.
In subsequent years, when there was talk of adding some AR models with even shorter barrels, I didn't get involved in further testing, but I remember a couple of the other instructors interested in the subject were considering potential loads and bullet weights that wouldn't be as likely to compromise actual terminal effectiveness when really short barrels were used. We're talking barrels down in the 10.3" length, and with 1/7 twist rates (which creates another concern affecting bullet weights used).
Of course, using such a unique pistol for a critter or varmint gun might suit some folks just fine.
Then again, the Remington XP-100 & XP-100R seemed to have attracted enough interested owners.
Probably not for a dedicated self defense weapon, though. Best regards.
hariph creek
Member
Beats me? Doesn't scratch my itch?
But if it does somebody elses? Go for it.
But if it does somebody elses? Go for it.
fastbolt
Member
I'd imagine it's probably useful for its intended role, meaning long range target/silhouette or varminting.
Cool that you own one. Is yours one of the early XP-100's or the 100R? 10 3/4" or 14 1/2" barrel.
The stock must be beautiful.
fastbolt,
very early XP100.
4 digit serial number.
I even have a clipping from Playboy magazine about the recall on it.
Also have the zipper case, and most of the original box of .221 fireball it came with.
Original owner only fired it about 5 times, and the empties are in the ammo box.
very early XP100.
4 digit serial number.
I even have a clipping from Playboy magazine about the recall on it.
Also have the zipper case, and most of the original box of .221 fireball it came with.
Original owner only fired it about 5 times, and the empties are in the ammo box.
fastbolt
Member
Very cool brickeyee.
SkyFreek60
Member
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2012
- Messages
- 7
I own one and agree with the above quote from an earlier post. People buy semi auto uzis which i see as pointless, but who cares its's their money and their gun. My ar pistol has put a lot of smiles on a lot of faces... makes a great range gun, blows up water jugs better than traditional pistols (velocity), big fireball at night, accurate, and all the fun of a full size in a small footprint and is thus easier to transport and maneuver. Why does anyone NEED anything different than cookie cutter? Or why do you need more than 1 handgun? I like options and having and shooting different things (also have 2 other ars and 2 more lowers to build on). If i needed a car gun then it would be my go to... 30rds of high velocity fun and the mags are cheaper and easier to find than any other. (30 rd mags for $7 vs glock mags $20-35)
parkerdude
Member
Here's why I want one
I'd like to build a 9" or 10" barreled AR pistol in 300 Blackout, so I can tune, and do load development while I await my Federal Tax stamps for the SBR status and suppressor that I'd like to add.
I've heard that it can take upwards of 6 months for the papers to be processed.
Might as well have a legal gun to play with until time to finish the conversion. Having parts around, some of which are illegal, if you own an AR15, until the paperwork returns.
Just a dream so far...
I'd like to build a 9" or 10" barreled AR pistol in 300 Blackout, so I can tune, and do load development while I await my Federal Tax stamps for the SBR status and suppressor that I'd like to add.
I've heard that it can take upwards of 6 months for the papers to be processed.
Might as well have a legal gun to play with until time to finish the conversion. Having parts around, some of which are illegal, if you own an AR15, until the paperwork returns.
Just a dream so far...
Stevie-Ray
Member
I too, opted for the PLR-16 for several reasons, some of which are: Far cheaper than an AR-15 but every bit as much fun. Have actually carried it concealed once when needing to venture into a known seedy area to pick somebody up-it's a bit handier than an AR-15. It's a major thorn in the side of practically every anti-gunner that even knows it exists. I thought it extremely ripe for banning and wanted to make sure I had mine.
seeker_two
Member
You know....the AR pistols come in more chamberings than .223.....and a 10+" barreled AR pistol chambered in 9mm, .45ACP, or 10mm is nothing to sneeze at....
An AR15 pistol is indeed useful in some legal niches that come to mind. The biggest niche is for folks who cannot legally have a loaded long gun inside a vehicle, but can legally have a loaded handgun. My home state allows loaded long guns inside vehicles, but out of state, I must play by their rules.
From within a vehicle, an AR 15 pistol is a formidable short-range weapon. I am considering building one for myself, with a quite long barrel, probably 11" or more, a nice red dot optic, and with a buffer tube. My wife's preferred personal defense weapon is an AR15 built around a BCM Lightweight Middy upper. It makes logistical sense for me to have a AR pistol that can use the same cache of mags.
I agree that a conventional handgun is better for most purposes. Because I normally have a 3" or 4" .357 revolver, a P229, and/or a 1911 with me, and work for a PD that wants me to only use specified handguns on or off the clock, I have not yet prioritized building an AR pistol. My impending retirement, and desire to travel much by large van or SUV, has me looking into the subject.
From within a vehicle, an AR 15 pistol is a formidable short-range weapon. I am considering building one for myself, with a quite long barrel, probably 11" or more, a nice red dot optic, and with a buffer tube. My wife's preferred personal defense weapon is an AR15 built around a BCM Lightweight Middy upper. It makes logistical sense for me to have a AR pistol that can use the same cache of mags.
I agree that a conventional handgun is better for most purposes. Because I normally have a 3" or 4" .357 revolver, a P229, and/or a 1911 with me, and work for a PD that wants me to only use specified handguns on or off the clock, I have not yet prioritized building an AR pistol. My impending retirement, and desire to travel much by large van or SUV, has me looking into the subject.
I want to add something here: As an LEO, I have participated in no small amount of training in felony vehicle stops, and made plenty of high-risk stops in real life. When one is inside one's vehicle, aiming at an adversary, the longer one's barrel, the less likely one is to blast a spotlight or mirror mounted on one's own vehicle, or something like a support pillar or door frame. Long-barreled handguns, whether based on an AR or not, seem to me to be a good idea when one's vehicle is not only cover, but can serve as a rest for the weapon.
How is a felony stop relevant to the private citizen? Well, road rage incidents come to mind, as do carjackings/kidnappings involving multiple bad guys in multiple vehicles boxing-in the complainant's vehicle. These happen often enough, and near enough, to be a concern for me. (southwest Houston TX metropolitan area) I will not fault anyone who sees an AR pistol as suitable for these scenarios. While driving away is the most desirable option, resourceful bad guys can make that difficult or impossible.
Moreover, an AR pistol offers more potential points of contact with the shooter's body. If this helps an individual shooter's accuracy, why not?
How is a felony stop relevant to the private citizen? Well, road rage incidents come to mind, as do carjackings/kidnappings involving multiple bad guys in multiple vehicles boxing-in the complainant's vehicle. These happen often enough, and near enough, to be a concern for me. (southwest Houston TX metropolitan area) I will not fault anyone who sees an AR pistol as suitable for these scenarios. While driving away is the most desirable option, resourceful bad guys can make that difficult or impossible.
Moreover, an AR pistol offers more potential points of contact with the shooter's body. If this helps an individual shooter's accuracy, why not?
It is a way for the manufacturers to make a buck. Think about this. How many new guns are really new? Are they new or a rehash of one of their others with a few modifications? Look at all of the accessories they sell and how wild they have gotten. Pink guns? Blue plastic grips? Anything to make a quick buck.
Why do we need scopes on a shotgun? How about that single-action, scope it? Why do we need everything tactical or self-defense? Don't we hunt anymore or is it only about shooting a burglar who may or not ever show up? The manufacturing community has just gone nuts with their products. What amazes me is they are selling this stuff.
Why do we need scopes on a shotgun? How about that single-action, scope it? Why do we need everything tactical or self-defense? Don't we hunt anymore or is it only about shooting a burglar who may or not ever show up? The manufacturing community has just gone nuts with their products. What amazes me is they are selling this stuff.
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