What's the problem with MIM parts?

[Prosser]

I often wonder if some of these owners intentions are to make maximum profit while the Obamademo mania drives gun and ammunition prices sky high,
and then to just walk away, bankrupt the company, and leave the American people with no gunmakers.

Who owns the company that actually owns S&@ right now? Oil Sheiks? Muslims?

Don't know, but, it's sort of liking selling the right to run an American ports to Dubai, or Hawaii to the Japanese.

 

[Feanaro]

Nobody's saying MIM is useless, or not functional enough, or even unreliable.

Does that mean all those pictures of broken MIM parts were just a fun little side-show?

MIM does not belong in a firearm. It belongs in a Chinese watch, a jig saw, or other throw away consumer item, but not a firearm which in this country is a symbol of freedom and self reliance.

So now we get to the crux of the matter. It's not about whether MIM is up to snuff mechanically, it's about having the best.

Nothing wrong with liking quality for quality's sake. But it would have saved other participants some time if you had made clear that this wasn't about practical concerns (since, as you pointed out, MIM parts aren't unreliable) but your idea of what parts are morally or aesthetically appropriate for a Smith and Wesson revolver.

As always,

 

[357 Terms]

A depression? Ford Pinto's? Internal locks? S@W owned by muslims!!?? Good god really? Start a rambling rant thread of your own. the Op asked about how well the small amount of MIM parts in most guns work. Maybe the few members who have hijacked this thread with ridiculous and off topic rants should contact each other privately.

 

[oneounceload]

Who owns the company that actually owns S&@ right now? Oil Sheiks? Muslims?

Publicly traded

Not only are they dragging money out of pockets in the middle of a depression, but, they are raising the prices or truly junk firearms, like Taurus, to absurd heights.

In other words, these jerks are defiling an industry and passion that is very basic to the American way of life, and dream.

Gotcha - you don't like S&W - here's a tip - DON'T buy their guns.
Consumers set the market price, not the sellers
As long as someone WILLINGLY buys their products, then their pricing is in line

I know a mastergunsmith, and, when he worked for S&@, they paid him near minimum wage, while they are charging 1000 dollars for 140 dollar gun.

And how much of the $105/hour shop rate do you think your car mechanic gets? Guess things like overhead, taxes, insurances, marketing, raw materials, finished goods inventory, utilities, wages, benefits, more taxes, etc. shouldn't be factored into the cost?.please..................

As to the OP and MIM parts, here's a snippet from a company that makes MIM parts - notice the industries using MIM:

Custom metal injection molding (MIM) company manufacturing small, intricate, engineered production components for companies in the medical, firearms, electronics, industrial tools, agriculture, aerospace, automotive & recreation industries. Processes materials in many grades of stainless steel, carbon ..

Industrial tools......aerospace

Guess folks here won't be flying anywhere now that there's unsafe MIM parts in aircraft

 

[Magnumite]

This thread has gone the same way as the revolver MIM thread.

Mindless hysteria over what has proven to be a viable production method in firearms. Yet no one slams castings used by Ruger. Mainly because the investment casting processes Ruger uses have proven reliable. I'd like to hear from the polymer gun crowd how many of the internal parts in the pistols are cast or MIM.

I had a Ruger P95, but we know there are investment cast parts are in it. Glock, XD, FN guys? I think this may shed some light on the issue.

 

[Guillermo]

for those that have not read up on the subject...MIM is not the problem.

MIM is a great way of manufacturing some things.

But all MIM is not created equally. (think of knife blades with just small differences...some are great, others suck. Just because one sucks does not mean that "stainless steel sucks")

The single stage process that S&W uses, especially for small parts is the big issue.

 

[Dogguy]

"If JBM had MIM, the 1911 would look like a HiPoint."

HiPoints probably perform better than the two Colt 1911s I owned. That's probably why I like polymers, plastics, castings and MIM.

 

[Old Fuff]

Does S&W still make forged parts or is the Performance Center using what's available from previous production?

I don't believe the older lockwork (made from machined bar stock, not forgings) is still in production. In any case S&W isn't selling of these older parts to the trade, and what is available is largely used parts taken from scraped guns. In terms of numbers the Performance Center doesn't use much.

Will there be a time in the near future when the supply of forged parts dries up?

So far as new parts are concerned, for all practical purposes we are there now, and have been for some time.

I was under the impression that the hammer on revolvers with a frame mounted firing pin has always been MIM. S&W never made a forged hammer for these revolvers. Am I wrong?

No, there are exceptions. All of the .22 rimfire model/hand ejector revolvers had (and still have) frame-mounted firing pins. Some of the early J-frame/inclosed hammer models also had frame mounted firing pins. There are others, but the number that were made is not impressive.

Can one order these forged parts from S&W?

Call and ask, but I don't think so. Usually previously used parts can be purchased from Numrich Parts Corp. at www.e-gunparts.com as well as other used/surplus parts sources.

Smith & Wesson is in business to make and sell new guns, and is not overly concerned about providing parts for what they see as obsolete models. When possible, they will repair an older revolver using new MIM parts - such as a trigger.

Those of us that prefer the older/blued steel revolvers have to accept the fact that repairs or part replacement may present a problem, and this is especially true concerning pre-World War Two production, that ended 71 years ago. Time does fly...

 

[918v]

Does S&W still make forged parts or is the Performance Center using what's available from previous production?

Will there be a time in the near future when the supply of forged parts dries up?

I was under the impression that the hammer on revolvers with a frame mounted firing pin has always been MIM. S&W never made a forged hammer for these revolvers. Am I wrong?

Yes.

S&W PC guns use new manufacture forged parts. I doubt you can buy them from S&W. Trying to get the PC to doeviate from their routine is like pulling teeth.

 

[918v]

Does that mean all those pictures of broken MIM parts were just a fun little side-show?

They were posted in response to certain people claiming MIM parts don't break.

 

[918v]

your idea of what parts are morally or aesthetically appropriate for a Smith and Wesson revolver.

Not just my idea.

Industrial tools......aerospace

Guess folks here won't be flying anywhere now that there's unsafe MIM parts in aircraft

There is a big difference between major parts and less important parts. A hammer or trigger on a S&W is like a turbine shaft in a jet engine.

HiPoints probably perform better than the two Colt 1911s I owned.

Life is much easier for you, then.

 

[Old Fuff]

S&W PC guns use new manufacture forged parts.

Unless they are making them out of bar-stock within the Performance Center, I doubt it. Setting up to make a production run would present a number of problems, and wouldn't be cost effective for the small amount used on a relative handful of custom revolvers. On the other hand, the Performance Center can make small quantites of almost anything.

I'm pretty sure that if the company set up to make any sizeable run of hammers and triggers they'd offset the cost by selling what ever surplus they had to the trade.

 

[18DAI]

My Performance Center 586-5 L-comp has a forged hammer and trigger group with a frame mounted firing pin.

Despite the advertising by the S&W Performance Center that they only use forged parts - caveat emptor!

I paid $600 for a PC nickel 15-8 on an auction board. When it arrived it had a ugly MIM hammer and MIM trigger with the trough down the back. Adding insult to injury, the hammer had a trough cut in it for the internal lock parts. Problem was, this 15-8 didn't have the internal lock (I wouldn't have purchased it if it had.) it still had the clean graceful frame lines around the hammer - which left this ugly trough in the hammer visible!!

It also had a lousy gritty modern production trigger pull. Worst POS I ever purchased. I traded it away for a nice 3" nickel 13-3. Gunshop guy said "gee, your taking a loss. I just grinned....to myself.

 

[918v]

Unless they are making them out of bar-stock within the Performance Center, I doubt it. Setting up to make a production run would present a number of problems, and wouldn't be cost effective for the small amount used on a relative handful of custom revolvers. On the other hand, the Performance Center can make small quantites of almost anything.

No, they are making them. I have three PC revolvers, have stripped them, and they are not cast or MIM.

 

[Old Fuff]

You missed my point. What I said (or met to say) was that it was (an is) unlikely they would be making a small number of parts using production tooling and procedures. If that was the case they'd make a large number of parts, and then sell the surplus to offset the substantial cost.

On the other hand the Performance Center could make a smaller number of hammers and triggers out of bar stock using their CNC machines.

There is a common misunderstanding. The older hammers and triggers that are often called "forged" weren't. They were stamped out of bar steel flat stock, and then finish machined and color-case hardened. Some, for a period of time, where flash chrome plated when intended to be used in stainless revolvers. Prior to the MIM era S&W never used cast lockwork.

 

[918v]

With the kind of tooling S&W has at it's disposal, they can make anything they want at any time.

 

[oneounceload]

Quote:
Industrial tools......aerospace

Guess folks here won't be flying anywhere now that there's unsafe MIM parts in aircraft
There is a big difference between major parts and less important parts. A hammer or trigger on a S&W is like a turbine shaft in a jet engine.

Custom metal injection molding (MIM) company manufacturing small, intricate, engineered production components

Guess you missed that part about small and intricate for aerospace, medical, firearms, etc.......

MIM is no different - IF it is done properly, then it works fine; if it isn't then it fails - just like forged parts that aren't done properly

 

[Old Fuff]

With the kind of tooling S&W has at it's disposal, they can make anything they want at any time.

Up to a point. MIM lockwork was introduced around the late 1990's, and sometime later production tooling was removed as the factory changed to the current day style. It isn't that the tooling in question couldn't be returned to service, but rather that it would be costly to do so when the plant's facilities and space had been turned to other things.

Given the situation, Smith & Wesson management could:

1. Return the production tooling and make a relatively small number of parts, that would have an extraordinary high cost-per-part.

2. Make a substantial number of parts, and sell the surplus to ofset the high cost-per-part.

3. Make the small number of parts they needed on CNC machines in the Performance Center. The cost-per-part whould be high, but much less then that of option #1.

I don't believe they went to option 2, or if they did they are holding the entire production run for exclusive in-house use. Otherwise they would be selling the older style parts to the trade, and/or filling individual orders - which apparently they are not.

Economics dictate that is is unlikely they would go to option #1, which would be the most expensive choice.

That leaves option #3.

The question is not what S&W could do, but from a cost point of view, what they would do.

 

[18DAI]

Old Fuff I was told that the Performance Center was no longer in its own facility, but had been brought into the main factory.

I was also told that the "Performance Center" guns were now simply cosmetic variations of current production guns, with none of the hand assembly or "extra touches" they previously got.

All the machinery for metal pistol construction had been moved to the Houlton Maine facility as well. Have you heard any of this? TJ

 

[Old Fuff]

No, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyway it should be clear that Smith & Wesson does not have any of the old-style hammers and triggers available for general distribution. I need to stick my nose into the current catalog and see exactly what they, and the Performance Center are offering.

More and more, "metal revolvers" are becoming less and less of a percentage of total production, and most of that are J-frame snubbies.

 

[Prosser]

"Gotcha - you don't like S&W - here's a tip - DON'T buy their guns.
Consumers set the market price, not the sellers
As long as someone WILLINGLY buys their products, then their pricing is in line."

I don't see any reason to buy another one. I keep the 360PD around to remind me of that, though, in some ways, it's in a category all by it's self, and worth keeping.

I don't like what MIM and greedy companies are doing to the gun market. At some point, maybe when Obama is out of office, or both houses are Republican, or the economy picks up, people will stop buying stuff at absurd prices. It's been a long time since my local gunshop was flooded with guns, and, had to drop prices to move guns. It got so bad that everytime I wanted to buy a gun, the owner of the shop asked for something in trade, since he wouldn't be able to get anything else to sell.

 

[357 Terms]

^^^ Once again WAAAY off topic!

 

[Feanaro]

They were posted in response to certain people claiming MIM parts don't break.

Quote the post in this thread where someone said MIM part don't break.

 

[oneounceload]

I don't like what MIM and greedy companies are doing to the gun market. At some point, maybe when Obama is out of office, or both houses are Republican, or the economy picks up, people will stop buying stuff at absurd prices. It's been a long time since my local gunshop was flooded with guns, and, had to drop prices to move guns. It got so bad that everytime I wanted to buy a gun, the owner of the shop asked for something in trade, since he wouldn't be able to get anything else to sell.

Greedy companies? Now, they're greedy for seizing a market opportunity to make a profit? Sounds like you don't know how business works..If your gun shop had to drop prices, then where is the greed? Sounds more like he was losing his butt. Why he wasn't able to get guns sounds like he didn't know how to manage his inventory

none of which has to do with MIM parts. If S&W can cut costs and maintain market share, or increase it, then that is what they are going to do. If you think they didn't think and act the same way back in the 50's, you're mistaken. If they had MIM back then, it would have been used to cut costs and take business from Colt and others

 

[contender]

do i like mim?

no........i do not understand the process nor do i care to......the thought of powdered metal mixed with plastic and melted just irritates me..........but then again so does the thought of plastic guns.

can i realisticly do anything about it other than buy old and used or limit my range of choices?......nope. even ruger is starting to use mim parts in their GP and SP line........they seem also to be onto the path of mim triggers by some accounts.

i formally give up on the issue of mim............the biggest gripe today is quality control and i don't care if the part is mim, plastic, or real steel......general QC is the real culprit..........and that is one cost saving measure that is inexecusable---- reduced QC.