What's the problem with MIM parts?
- Thread starter OldCavSoldier
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Guillermo
member
interesting that such is what you glean from that
such is not what I was suggesting
Nobody's saying MIM is useless, or not functional enough, or even unreliable. What I'm saying (and I hope what the other anti-MIMers are saying) is that MIM does not belong in a firearm. It belongs in a Chinese watch, a jig saw, or other throw away consumer item, but not a firearm which in this country is a symbol of freedom and self reliance. Only the best should go into a S&W, and that means forged and machined innards.
The Old Fuff, ever the Peacemaker, suggests that we call a truce. If one doesn’t like MIM parts they don’t have to have them. On the other hand anyone who does, or doesn’t care, can shop the current Smith & Wesson catalog.
MIM parts are not going to go away, but I couldn’t care less. I have several other options, running from buying older pre-MIM revolvers (which I prefer anyway) to replacing most if not all of the objectionable parts. Others who share my concerns or opinions are free to do the same. Those that don’t can ignore my posts, as well as others.
Fortunately everyone is free to follow their own dictates and preferences, and no one is forced to conform to those held by others.
Smith & Wesson is not going to turn back the clock to what was, because to do so would result in a product that was so expensive it would be for the most part, rejected in the marketplace. But we are fortunate in that earlier revolvers remain available, and sometimes at attractive prices, (although that may change over time, which can make a purchase today a future investment).
So why continue to argue?
MIM parts are not going to go away, but I couldn’t care less. I have several other options, running from buying older pre-MIM revolvers (which I prefer anyway) to replacing most if not all of the objectionable parts. Others who share my concerns or opinions are free to do the same. Those that don’t can ignore my posts, as well as others.
Fortunately everyone is free to follow their own dictates and preferences, and no one is forced to conform to those held by others.
Smith & Wesson is not going to turn back the clock to what was, because to do so would result in a product that was so expensive it would be for the most part, rejected in the marketplace. But we are fortunate in that earlier revolvers remain available, and sometimes at attractive prices, (although that may change over time, which can make a purchase today a future investment).
So why continue to argue?
Guillermo
member
I always thought of you as a Colt Officer's Match
huntsman
Member
what I'd like to see is a sticky with some guidelines (or a definitive list) to identify MIM guns to make purchasing decisions easier.
There are some exceptions, but they aren't common.
Center-fire revolvers will have the internal lock (because the MIM hammer is a necessary component) and the firing pin will be in the frame, and not on the hammer.
A MIM trigger can be identified by looking at the back of the fingerpiece. It will be hollowed out rather then flat.
Guillermo
member
as it was intended
psst...you need to adjust the windage or go easy on the barrachos
"such is not what I was suggesting"
Well, then you might want to try choosing quotes that are unambiguous in their meaning and intent.
The reference to P.T. Barnum's misattributed quotes might also be seen as being insulting, but some can only revert to name calling when they can't actually prove a point beyond using their own opinion.
If you choose not to purchase firearms with MIM-manufactured parts, more power to you.
If you can produce any type of objective research which demonstrates that MIM parts are unsuitable for the applications that S&W or any other manufacturer chooses, then I would gladly read it.
Until then, I will trust in the engineering prowess of S&W to produce firearms that the marketplace accepts. If they have made a poor choice, then their company will suffer for it.
By the way, if you really prefer machined-and-forged, you might want to look into USFA revolvers. They are truly worth the price and the wait.
gd
Well, then you might want to try choosing quotes that are unambiguous in their meaning and intent.
The reference to P.T. Barnum's misattributed quotes might also be seen as being insulting, but some can only revert to name calling when they can't actually prove a point beyond using their own opinion.
If you choose not to purchase firearms with MIM-manufactured parts, more power to you.
If you can produce any type of objective research which demonstrates that MIM parts are unsuitable for the applications that S&W or any other manufacturer chooses, then I would gladly read it.
Until then, I will trust in the engineering prowess of S&W to produce firearms that the marketplace accepts. If they have made a poor choice, then their company will suffer for it.
By the way, if you really prefer machined-and-forged, you might want to look into USFA revolvers. They are truly worth the price and the wait.
gd
Guillermo
member
or when one gets frustrated after putting forth logical conclusions based in fact and backed up by science and other argue "Is not!"
such is your right.
Personally I think that any company that has a locking device that works on the same axis as the recoil of the gun (opposite) is idiotic in the "engineering department".
The Ford Escort was the best selling car in America for many years. McDonald's sells a lot of burgers.
That the marketplace buys it is no endorsement of quality.
I could not agree more. They are building some outstanding handguns. Were I into single actions I would be knocking on their door.
"That the marketplace buys it is no endorsement of quality."
That may be so, but Ford and McDonalds are obviously producing goods of which that market approves regarding price vs. quality. Not everyone drives Rolls-Royces or overnights at the Ritz-Carlton.
Isn't it a beautiful thing that here in America you aren't required to purchase S&W products, while at the same time others have that option?
I'm also pleased that so many gun manufacturers are producing so many different guns because so many folks are interested in shooting, aren't you?
Again, any scientific or industry study which objectively measures MIM quality vs. forged/machined/whatever would be invaluable to support your claims.
gd
That may be so, but Ford and McDonalds are obviously producing goods of which that market approves regarding price vs. quality. Not everyone drives Rolls-Royces or overnights at the Ritz-Carlton.
Isn't it a beautiful thing that here in America you aren't required to purchase S&W products, while at the same time others have that option?
I'm also pleased that so many gun manufacturers are producing so many different guns because so many folks are interested in shooting, aren't you?
Again, any scientific or industry study which objectively measures MIM quality vs. forged/machined/whatever would be invaluable to support your claims.
gd
Guillermo
member
Actually I am more depressed because unions and governments have run up labor costs so much that manufacturers are forced to come up with other ways of producing premium revolvers and generally, the quality has suffered.
It is not just quality issues (no QC, crush fit barrels, idiotically designed storage locks) Add trial attorneys, insurance companies and the "justice" system then contemplate the potential liability for a gun company...it is amazing new guns have triggers.
With this in mind, I guess we should be glad any new guns are being manufactured at all.
I am quite thankful for the shooting sports. Cowboy Action Shooting and all of the gun games seem to have re-energized shooting...and that is a very good thing.
huntsman
Member
is that just S&W or other brands as well? what about the semi-autos?
and thank youOldCavSoldier
Member
Wow! Guys! I did not intend on opening up a thread with a simple inquiry leading to insults or other personal comments....I just wanted to know what it was about MIM parts that was problematic...or not, as the case may be. I think now might be a good time to close this thread...if I can figure out how to do it. Thanks to all who have helped educate me!
BADUNAME13
Member
You need to check the S&W forums.
As I recall they had to chop pages and pages off of the length of the thread of people testifying to having it happen due to the length (Well over 100 pages, and that was a year or so when I looked)
I know a retired State trooper that had it happen to him at the range.
He no longer uses guns with locks (As I don't)
Why add the POTENTIAL?
The thread about lock failures over on the S&W forum is gone. Shame, it was an informative read.
The thread vanished soon after the old owner sold the board to the current owner. New owner claimed it was "pruned by mistake.."
Guess he didn't want all the fanboys with S&W logo tattos crying in their beer.
The thread vanished soon after the old owner sold the board to the current owner. New owner claimed it was "pruned by mistake.."
Guess he didn't want all the fanboys with S&W logo tattos crying in their beer.
oneounceload
member
If you don't like the lock, remove it - a simple operation, problem solved
My post #159 was met to describe most current Smith & Wesson revolvers.
Taurus revolvers have MIM hammers and triggers. Ruger revolvers use investment castings in place of MIM, with the possible exception of their new LCR models.
MIM parts are used in many 1911 pistol clones, and to a limited degree by Colt's.
On my part, a longer list would take much more research
As usual, you all beat around the bush enough, and leave me to summarize it.
Pretty much, the general perception from experienced, read over 50, firearms nuts is this:
The Situation:
After Clinton and the demos did so much damage to the Second Amndment, gun industry, and our freedoms, we all got complacent when the country swing vote had enough, voted Baby Bush, and a Republican congress in. However, they did NOT do enough, either to limit the ATF by defunding, restore our rights, and, get rid of the congressional threat to firearms. What they did do was spend money like drunken sailors, and, in the eyes of the people, both Republican and Democrat, justify voting in the greatest scammer of all time, and, a majority of Democrats.
Now what this did was put us into a depression, super high unemployment, and, besides the liquor industry, firearms companies response to this was to figure out every possible way to maximize profits.
Companies like S&@ are charging Colt/Freedom Arms type prices, for Taurus quality guns.
Others, like Colt, have held the quality line, charging a reasonable price for an excellent product, and, judging by my new stainless Ruger Single Six,
Ruger is also holding the line, at least with their single actions.
I don't have the figure, but, I suspect S&@ is producing record profits, with record salaries to the top end of their management. VERY rarely is it actually the work force that really profits.
I know a mastergunsmith, and, when he worked for S&@, they paid him near minimum wage, while they are charging 1000 dollars for 140 dollar gun.
This is the anger S&@ deserves, and, the anger that MIM parts evoke.
Other companies, as I explained earlier, like Kimber, charge Wilson like prices
for RA quality components. This is what REALLY angers us about MIM. MIM, I suspect, if they took half the care in producing it, might really be reliable. However, the history of this product is the companies that are producing it
care less.
Much like the lock, or the Ford Pinto, they balance profit against potential loss.
If someone dies, and their family sues because of a S&@ gun locking up, and the defensive CCW carrier dying, the cost is probably going to be around a million dollars, plus attorneys fees. Maybe 500K. Balance this against the massive profit they are making on turning out cheap guns at premium prices, in a frenzied market, and, you get folks that have been around getting REALLY mad at these carpet bagging jerks.
Not only are they dragging money out of pockets in the middle of a depression, but, they are raising the prices or truly junk firearms, like Taurus, to absurd heights.
In other words, these jerks are defiling an industry and passion that is very basic to the American way of life, and dream.
Pretty much, the general perception from experienced, read over 50, firearms nuts is this:
The Situation:
After Clinton and the demos did so much damage to the Second Amndment, gun industry, and our freedoms, we all got complacent when the country swing vote had enough, voted Baby Bush, and a Republican congress in. However, they did NOT do enough, either to limit the ATF by defunding, restore our rights, and, get rid of the congressional threat to firearms. What they did do was spend money like drunken sailors, and, in the eyes of the people, both Republican and Democrat, justify voting in the greatest scammer of all time, and, a majority of Democrats.
Now what this did was put us into a depression, super high unemployment, and, besides the liquor industry, firearms companies response to this was to figure out every possible way to maximize profits.
Companies like S&@ are charging Colt/Freedom Arms type prices, for Taurus quality guns.
Others, like Colt, have held the quality line, charging a reasonable price for an excellent product, and, judging by my new stainless Ruger Single Six,
Ruger is also holding the line, at least with their single actions.
I don't have the figure, but, I suspect S&@ is producing record profits, with record salaries to the top end of their management. VERY rarely is it actually the work force that really profits.
I know a mastergunsmith, and, when he worked for S&@, they paid him near minimum wage, while they are charging 1000 dollars for 140 dollar gun.
This is the anger S&@ deserves, and, the anger that MIM parts evoke.
Other companies, as I explained earlier, like Kimber, charge Wilson like prices
for RA quality components. This is what REALLY angers us about MIM. MIM, I suspect, if they took half the care in producing it, might really be reliable. However, the history of this product is the companies that are producing it
care less.
Much like the lock, or the Ford Pinto, they balance profit against potential loss.
If someone dies, and their family sues because of a S&@ gun locking up, and the defensive CCW carrier dying, the cost is probably going to be around a million dollars, plus attorneys fees. Maybe 500K. Balance this against the massive profit they are making on turning out cheap guns at premium prices, in a frenzied market, and, you get folks that have been around getting REALLY mad at these carpet bagging jerks.
Not only are they dragging money out of pockets in the middle of a depression, but, they are raising the prices or truly junk firearms, like Taurus, to absurd heights.
In other words, these jerks are defiling an industry and passion that is very basic to the American way of life, and dream.
Yup.
What gets me is they're putting forged parts into PC revolvers for only a couple hundred dollars more, but you're getting a LW50 barrel too so the forged parts are only a hundred bucks. And that's on a low volume production line. If they went all forged for all their guns the cost would drop even more. Cheap bastards.
What gets me is they're putting forged parts into PC revolvers for only a couple hundred dollars more, but you're getting a LW50 barrel too so the forged parts are only a hundred bucks. And that's on a low volume production line. If they went all forged for all their guns the cost would drop even more. Cheap bastards.
Armed012002
Member.
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- Jan 11, 2009
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Does S&W still make forged parts or is the Performance Center using what's available from previous production?
Will there be a time in the near future when the supply of forged parts dries up?
I was under the impression that the hammer on revolvers with a frame mounted firing pin has always been MIM. S&W never made a forged hammer for these revolvers. Am I wrong?
Can one order these forged parts from S&W?
Will there be a time in the near future when the supply of forged parts dries up?
I was under the impression that the hammer on revolvers with a frame mounted firing pin has always been MIM. S&W never made a forged hammer for these revolvers. Am I wrong?
Can one order these forged parts from S&W?
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