What's up with the 1911

[FNFiveSeven]

I've been doing some handgun thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that the most popular autoloader BY FAR is the 1911. And meaning no disrespect to all you loyal 1911 owners out there, but I just don't get it. I mean, we're talking about the first generation automatic, nearly one hundred years old! That's like saying the Model T ford is still the best car. What's the big deal? For example, look at the extractor design on the 1911, it's archaic... it's not even spring loaded. I have some ideas, let me know if any of them are right:

1) It's old and has a lot of nostalgic character. Two world wars, your great grandfather might even have owned one.

2) It's an american classic. Just like the garand.

3) 1911 owners still feel like they're getting "the real deal" because they "chose" low capacity .45 magazine design over high capacity 9mm, 10mm, 40 S&W.

Looking at the above reasons, 1 and 2 are valid, but have nothing to do with the combat effectiveness of the 1911 (which is what a lot of people think makes it so great, e.g. Les Baer, Wilson Combat, etc).

Number 3 strikes me as being sour grapes... although we'll see if that's true come Sept this year.

So what's the deal? Have I missed something?

 

[jsalcedo]

The design was far ahead of it's time.

The 1911 is still thinner than anything that tries to compete with it.

It is rugged, accurate, packs a punch and is time tested.

Newer is not always better.

Another example of the same concept would be the Colt 1903 pocket auto which has yet to be matched for a snagless, ultra concealable, reliable pocket/backup gun

 

[SapperLeader]

The slimness and the trigger is what sold me on 1911s. I havent seen any other gun out there that compares to the combinationo of those two features.

 

[Tamara]

The purpose of a fighting handgun is to hit your opponent with a projectile that will kill him, and do it many times in rapid succession. Simply put, the 1911 is a superlative tool for doing this.

1911's don't dominate shooting sports like IDPA and IPSC because of nostalgia. They are not increasingly selected by special operations units because they are restricted to "low capacity magazines".

I owned a handful of indifferent 1911's over the years. Four or five years ago, I might have written a post like yours. Then I got my hands on a good 1911. It was an epiphany. I wound up selling my HK's, SIGs, and Berettas and bought more good 1911's. None of them are very nostalgic, although I think a couple are attractive. Most are rather ugly tools with the particular set of modifications I prefer. That's okay, though; I didn't buy 'em to look at. Their beauty is in their construction and their performance; simply put, they shoot faster and more accurately than any other major-caliber pistol I've tried, as well as CCW'ing better than a 5"-barrelled, steel-framed gun has a right to.

 

[Knives]

What Tamara said.

 

[Lictalon]

Nice post Tamara. Well said.

There's probably a million threads like this, but trigger is what sold me. Most of accuracy is built into the trigger, and I can hit easier, first shot, with a 1911. Age has nothing to do with it; newer is usually better, but sometimes not.

Many times not.

 

[BluesBear]

The Model T - 1911 analagy is flawed.

The Model T was the first mas produced production line automobile. The automobile industry was is its infancy. On the other hand the firearms industry was already several hundred years old.

Vehicles riding on rubber tires powered by internal combustion engines will still remain in preferred use for quite a while yet.

How old is the common claw hammer? The screw driver? The twist drill? The common hand saw? Even the plain old AXE for Pete's sake! These TOOLS are still the best at what they do. And ALL are a lot older than the 1911. Sure there are specialized tools for some jobs but not of them offer the portability and versitility of the originals.

And it's not just the 1911. The DA revolver is still hanging in. So is the pump shotgun and lever action rifle. And when is the last time you went to anyplace that sells guns and DIDN'T see a bolt action rifle?

Do you listen to the radio in your car? Marconi invented that little gadget over 100 years ago. Sure they had tubes but old state radios have been around for over 50 years. Are you aware that if today you had a working 1937 RCA round screen TV that you could still pick up your local channels on it and even attact it to your cable box? Of course that Channel 1 position is generally useless.

Christmas carollers still sing Silent Night and rock & roll bands still play Johnny B. Goode. (Sometimes they'll even tip the bassist $10 to sing it at Juan O'Reilly's in Pioneer Square at the Wednesday night Charles White All Star Jam hosted by yours truely... but that's another story)


Newer doesn't always mean better and Old doesn't always mean obsolete.

Have you ever used a pencil......

 

[silent one]

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. I would much rather have 7, 8, or 10 rounds in my 1911 .45, than 15 rounds of .9mm in any other hand gun. You can take that to the bank.
good luck, and be safe.


SILENT ONE

 

[BluesBear]

And if I hadn't been so busy composing that last post I would have been agreeing with Tamara.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I've owned several model 1911s over the years. I bought several Colts in the late 1970s for bullseye competition. They were expensive, unreliable, and inaccurate, which is to say: all were expensive, and no matter how extensively I had them modified, I couldn't find one that was both reliable and accurate. I abandoned both the gun and the caliber.

Twenty-odd years later, I bought a Kimber that soon proved to be everything the Colts ought to have been. It was expensive, to be sure, but it's been both entirely reliable and surprisingly accurate. The addition of Fung match stocks was a big help, as was a trigger job to bring the pull down to a reasonable level and take out nearly all the creep. I load light wadcutters for maximum accuracy, and keep it loaded with factory hollow points for last resort home defense. That saidâ„¢, in terms of accuracy, it's no match for my better .22 caliber pistols and Pythons.

I find it too bulky to carry concealed very comfortably longer than an hour or two, and after all's said and done, I still consider the .45 A.C.P. an inferior cartridge to the .357 magnum. I believe every halfway serious shooter ought to own a good model 1911; I can't, however, imagine what I'd ever do with two of them. I think of the model 1911 as something like the Ruger Mark II or a reasonably good, moderately priced .22 caliber rifle: far more popular than genuinely excellent.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Are you missing something? YES.

Age is not a relevant criterion for evaluating technology. If anything, it could be counter argued (and maybe just as mistakenly so) that since 1911s have such a long history, surviving where other guns have come and gone (all new-fangled!), that we should scrap any new-fangled guns because they don't have a long history. That is an opposing and equally bogus use of age for justification of the gun. It is just looking at the same information from the opposite side.

 

[1911Tuner]

Whattup?

Whew! Talk about prime real estate to have a flame war...

Instead of an emotional response...(which was probably the point)
or an opinion, which is subjective...let's look at it from a purely logical and
logistical standpoint.

First off, the extractor isn't spring loaded because it IS a spring...or at least
it was until somebody decided to save a few bucks per gun, and made it
out of something else. It can be so again, and for just a little cash outlay,
will probably outlast the gun, and without any problems to boot. I have
an old pre-war spring extractor that has worn out 3 pistols over the years...
and aside from setting the tension one time on installation and periodic cleaning, no other attention has been required. Pretty good performance for an archaic, 70 year-old part...wouldn't you say? I've also got firing pins
and other small parts that have been rockin' and rollin' for 70+ years...
and even a few that have seen their 90th birthday.
I know personally of a pistol that was stored in Condition One in an attic
for over 60 years...and it functioned perfectly after a perfunctory inspection.
I didn't even oil it...and it wasn't a rattletrap. 7 rounds and a flawless slidelock...with the ammo that was in it.

Advantage..Reliability under the harshest conditions of abuse and neglect,
assuming that it hasn't been turned into something that it was never intended to be...such as a target-grade pistol that will hold an inch at 50 yards.

Advantage...Easily and quickly serviceable in the field, including the replacement of worn or broken parts...without tools. The gun is its own
tool kit. At the very most, it can be completely disassembled to bare frame
and slide...except the plunger tube and the sights with nothing more than
a firing pin and a cartridge rim...again, assuming that the grip screws haven't been replaced with bling-bling hex head screws. The firing pin
is optional. Not necessary for the task, but it makes it a little quicker.
3 minutes to strip instead of 2. 4 minutes to reassemble instead of
5. Flip a coin.

Advantage...Replacement parts are only as far away as a phone call to Brownells. The quality and grade of these parts varies..One gets what one
pays for, after all...but even the high-dollar parts are very reasonable, and
you have about a 50/50 chance of it dropping in and working...again, assuming that the gun hasn't been previously altered or "smithed" to death.

Advantage...Good magazines are everywhere you look..and rebuild/repair parts are too. All at a price that Joe Average can afford. You can have 50
completely functional and reliable magazines for less than the cost of 10 magazines for a Glock or a Sig...and the replacement springs are about half the cost too. Don't think that reliability in the other autopistols depends on good magazines any less so than with a 1911. The magazine is the heart of their systems too. If it fails, the gun fails.

Advantage...There are people who have made the 1911 their personal mission, and can either tune, fix, restore, rebuild your 1911...or teach you
how to. Many people...More than you would believe until you start asking around.

Lastly..if you'll have a close look at your Glock or Sig, you'll see that it really isn't that far removed from the Colt-Browning design. It's just different
to the casual observer. John Browning's fingerprints are all over that
Glock. Same for the Sig, or ANY autopistol with the tilting barrel. The
Beretta is a near clone of the Walther P-38. Nothing new under the sun,
it seems...and the reason that a design is closely or exactly copied is because there's not much that can be done to improve on it...and please don't throw the superiority of the linkless tilting barrel into the debate.
It does exactly the same thing as the falling link...Exactly. It just does
it with one less moving part. True, it's a little more tolerant of abuse,
such as letting the slide slam to battery without ammunition in the gun...but other than that, it's no better and no worse. What it does
accomplish is to limit some of the tuning capability that comes with the
falling link...but that's a whole 'nother debate.

There is a very good reason that the 1911 dominates in competition...just like there is a very good reason that the people who have a serious need for a fighting handgun will choose it if they are offered the choice, and they
understand the advantages.

Step back and take a closer look. Study the gun closely, and the answer will become clear. Like Tamara pointed out...a really good 1911 leaves
the others in the dust.

Be of good cheer and mindful of six...

Tuner

 

[45auto]

What Tamara said...also.

A lot of 1911's come with "spring loaded" extractors if you wish.

Lot's of "high capacity" 1911's are also available if you want. Just pony up the money for the mags.

For civilians, the single stack 1911 holds 2 less rounds than the 'high capacity" guns you now buy. For personal defense, I wonder how many cases a civilian had to do a "reload" on any handgun, not including TV show civilians.

Glock is by far the largest selling centerfire handgun in the US...no contest.

 

[OF]

Have I missed something?

Just some friendly advice: if you started your thought process with this assumption first and then asked for discussion on the point prior to making sweeping (and often borderline rude) statements insinuating that those who hold views other than your own are either stupid or ignorant to open your threads, you might get better information and ultimately win some friends in the process.

Just a thought.

- Gabe

 

[greygun]

With the brush of my thumb, I have 8 to 9 rounds of .45 power using only 4 lbs. of trigger, EVERY time. I would never knock a Sig (I have 3) or a Glock (my wife has 2), but the grip of a 1911 is an almost perfect fit for the majority of shooters, the trigger doesn't change from first to second round, the barrel is 5" long, with the attendant longer sight radius. It works when it's dirty, it works every time (assuming it is not an overly tight match gun), and it points naturally to the target. It may be old, but it is still the first choice of guys that need the best.

 

[RikWriter]

Have I missed something?

Yes. You've missed that the 1911 with a flat mainspring housing fits my hand better and points better than any other handgun. Thus, I am more accurate and faster with it than with any other handgun. That's the only thing that's important to me.

 

[Shake]

Here we go. . .

 

[Ankeny]

I don't need to be logical, make sense, or justify my choice, performance speaks for itself. Besides, old slab sides gives me a major woody. I don't suppose I can say that on a family forum can I?

 

[Sean Smith]

This is not the first time we've seen this sort of thing on this forum, or others.

Observation: I don't know anything about the 1911.
Conclusion: You are a twit for using one.

 

[Edward429451]

Have you missed something? Yep.

Have you ever shot a 1911? Doesn't sound like it. You have some ill perceptions in your pre conceived notions of this pistol. Go shoot one, carry one, clean one, shoot it some more, then come back and tell us why the super new & modern Hi-Point line is better & improved.

Dude, the joke's on you if you choose a modern Kia over an obsolete Cadillac.

A victim of modern sales hype & marketing tactics, perhaps? Oh well.

 

[cratz2]

Well, I think the 1911 (and P7s and BHPs and to a lesser extent, CZ derivatives) fall into the category of, "If you have to ask, you probably don't get it".

The Glock 20 is a formidable weapon. Lots of rounds of a potent cartridge. If you're happy carrying one, knock yourself out! If you appreciate the finer things in life, a well put together 1911A1 is certainly among them.

Discounting the financial implications, if you're happy with a 1984 Caravelle, don't worry about Porsches or BMWs. If you're content with a three room house, don't pay the extra for three living areas and a basement. But it doesn't really make sense to knock folks that can comfortably afford a BMW M5 and a custom home on lakefront property any more than it makes sense to insinuate that only an idiot would prefer the 100 year old design of the 1911 to modern Glocks or SIGs.

 

[MrMurphy]

I have to be frank. I grew up on the 1911. It's my all-around favorite pistol. I carry a Glock 30 (.45) cause for a Commander sized gun it's lighter, has 11 round capacity and is a point-and-squeeze weapon. Having seen the aftermath of numerous shootouts as a news photographer, I like the simpler action of the Glock. Plus when I bought mine, I could DEFINITELY not afford a good 1911, preferably in my case a Kimber. Twice the price of my Glock, nearly.

But I would take a 1911 in a heartbeat for any serious use (combat, carry, etc). My father carried one in both Vietnam and Gulf War I, and he didn't exactly feel underarmed. They had a shortage of Berettas, so he got a .45. He didn't mind one little bit.

Considering that all the Beretta packers overseas are trying their hardest to get .45s again...... no surprises there.

The 1911 fits nearly everyone, including women with small hands (I know a pair of 5'2 140lb women who shoot 1911s easily) and it's easy enough to learn how to operate.

And having seen multiple people shot with 9mm FMJ and JHP, and .45 FMJ and JHP, I'll take a .45. I'd use a 9mm or .40 if I had to, but I'll always take a .45 if it's an option. Especially when FMJ is issued with no other option, the .45.

 

[Pebcac]

Just another convert saying, "What Tamara and Tuner said."

I've got no particular complaints against other stuff, but the 1911 just shoots better for me, and I like a bigger bullet. Some things just work, and a 1911 as originally designed works. 1911 problems come with gadgets and tightening jobs.

I miss my Beretta and have let go of a couple of revolvers I liked, but I'll be keeping my GI repro Springfield. I just need to get a spring-steel extractor, and I'll be happy. Oh, and some nice wood grips 'cause they're purty. Can't put purty grips on polymer.

 

[MoNsTeR]

the answer to every "I don't get the 1911" post that ever was or ever will be...

"It's the trigger, stupid!"


(note the above smileys which indicate that I am not, in fact, calling anyone stupid)

 

[peashooter]

The 1911 is in a word CLASSIC. Proven, stood the test of time and still in mass production by popular demand.