What's up with the 1911

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I just feel so lucky that I got one of the few 1911's that functioned fine out of the box. (sarcasm off).

4000+ with hardly a hiccup, doesn't like Winclean ammo so I don't buy it.

I thought it shot low at first, now I know better:D
 
My turn!

First let me say that, yes, nostalgia played a very big part in my decision to purchase a 1911: watching those old WWII movies or Magnum PI really made an impression on me. That might be wrong to some, but that's where I started. Of course, the pistol wouldn't have been showcased in those films if it hadn't performed so well in the fields of Normandy and Vietnam.

On top of that, I couldn't help but note that the most popular weapon in all of the competition shooting games was and is the 1911. Why would a junk gun be used as-is or as a platform if it was unsuitable for fast and accurate shooting? This was another question I had to ask and answer.

Then I looked at how they felt in the hand. I juggled a few at the shops and shows to see if I liked them, if they really worked for me personally. They did.

Finally, I looked at their internals. This is a weapon that you can only describe as simple. There are no teeny-tiny parts and I can take it all the way down with little or no tools. I can replace parts that some other guns would require a gunsmith for.

Take, for example, the "Browning-designed" High Power 9mm. I own one and while I like it a great deal, it is far more complicated than the 1911. Not only does it shoot a smaller bullet and have a thicker grip, but there are some really teensy parts in there that preclude detail stripping in the field. But it's a hi-cap wondernine, right? It should be head and shoulders above the 1911 because it's newer and was designed by the europeans, right?

The same can be said for the Glock, HK, and Sig. Good weapons. Reliable. Cheap. Complicated beyond wonder!

Of course, I'm an inveterate tinkerer and really like the idea that I can trick out my carry gun to suit my personality. But I can promise you that I would never have chosen this platform if it wasn't proven and didn't work for me. I carry one every day on the job and rely on it to keep me alive if things go bad.
 
From my experiences with 1911's, they don't seem to be any more malfunction prone than any other guns. Alot of the newer ones are junk, but then that's true with most guns!
 
Finally

Seems like the guy's feelings are based mainly on the fact that the
extractor isn't spring loaded.:rolleyes:

Razor...Do some research. The internal extractor IS a spring...and when it's
made of certain alloys and correctly spring tempered, it will be takin' care
of business long after the coil spring under the external extractor gives up
the ghost. Even the ones made of incorrect 4140 and 4340 steels that are well-tempered are pretty springy.

Then, if the internal happens to break or wear out in 40 or 50 thousand rounds, it can be replaced in about 5 minutes without tools, assuming that
it only needs to be bent to set the correct tension. Some require a little
massaging, but usually not much.

I'm offa this one. Mama told me not to feed the trolls.:p

Toona
 
I, for one, can dispell the whole 'nostalgia' bit. I have zero nostalgia for the 1911. I was full-on modern polymer automatic guy until I had read enough people who knew what they were talking about put the 1911 on the top of the heap that I had to try one.

I bought a base 'loaded' Springfield added some Wilson 7-rnd magazines and have been in love ever since. The thing is all business, runs like a sewing machine (probably ~3 thousand or so through it already and it is, no joke, %100...and I am not kind to my guns) and is all I hoped it would be. I carry and compete with the same piece.

I can't even begin to describe how much happier I am with this gun than my Glock or USP. And if there is ever anything about it that bugs me in the least, I always have the option of modifying the gun to suit me exactly.

Pretty cool from where I'm standing.

- Gabe
 
Thinking about the forum's Rules of Conduct...

Mainly, the part about not feeding the trolls. (And their $2000 Lorcins)


Tamara, 1911 Tuner, and BluesBear all speak true. The 1911 is a tool. A tool designed for a job a long time ago, that still works perfectly for it's intended purpose.

Although, I do take exception to some of what BluesBear says:

Do you listen to the radio in your car? Marconi invented that little gadget over 100 years ago. Sure they had tubes but old state radios have been around for over 50 years. Are you aware that if today you had a working 1937 RCA round screen TV that you could still pick up your local channels on it and even attact it to your cable box? Of course that Channel 1 position is generally useless.


I listen to tubes every day, and no longer consider them obsolete, they're the sweetest-sounding part of my audio-visual home setup. This $1200 amplifier was built in 1997 - I'll take a pic with it and one of my 1911's soon, the analogy is too good to pass up: (Gotcha, BluesBear! :D)


jolida502dusty.gif
 
I saw a History Channel show a while back about Mikhail Kalashnikov. They discussed his many firearms designs, from small arms and machine guns on up to anti-aircraft guns and field pieces.

The amazing thing was that most of his inventions were so closely shrouded in secrecy by the Soviet government that nobody before had ever lumped them all together into one impressive body of work... As it appears, Kalashnikov has been credited with the greatest number of firearms design of any single designer.

During the interview portion of the show, he was asked, "How des it feel to have invented more firearms than the legendary John Browning, who many people feel is the most influential gun designer of all time?"

Kalashnikov replied, "Well, when you get it right the first time, you have no need to try again, over and over..."
 
Well, to be honest, I used to own a 1911 type pistol,

Really? I'll defer to the voice of experience, then... ;)

'Course, the P7's nice too.

Yup, they are nice. I sold both of mine and bought more 1911's.

the 1911 is NOT very reliable

Nope, it sure ain't.

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:rolleyes:
 
Ohhh i'm just gonna wade in here.:neener: I'll take my Delta Elite over anyother 1911. Great gun even better cartridge. The 45 has the ballistic quality's of a brick:evil:
 
Ohhh i'm just gonna wade in here. I'll take my Delta Elite over anyother 1911. Great gun even better cartridge. The 45 has the ballistic quality's of a brick

Yup. Exactly. A brick. A big, heavy, slow moving brick. Which is exactly what I want to hit someone I need to stop in a hurry with. Would you rather get hit by a speeding motorcycle and go flying (perhaps a slightly better chance for survival) or get run over by a slower moving Mack truck? I'd want to take my chances with the bike.

I like all my 1911s, including my Delta. :)
 
I like my Delta Elite, too. I'm carrying it right now, as a matter of fact. I'll probably be carrying a .45 ACP 1911 tomorrow, though, unless I'm carrying one in .38 Super. :)
 
I don't know fellas, I'm pretty impressed! I mean this guy has amassed an extrordinary amount of knowledge and experience after owning only one, not very representative, example of the 1911.

I continue to be amazed at reports of 1911s being unreliable. I own or have owned close to 20 over the years, and have fired several thousand rounds and can honestly say that mine have all been totally reliable. Maybe I'm just lucky?
 
I was all wound up to write an ascerbic reply to the original poster, but I got to thinking about how good the 1911 feels in the hand, and how sweet the trigger is, and how easy IWB is with one, I forgot what I was going to write. I'm just sitting here with a smile on my face. :)

Thanks man!
 
Gewehr98,

I am SOOOoooo jealous.

I NEVER said transistors were better. I'd never say that because I don't believe it. At least not for audio circuits.

But what's with those Svetlanas? Get a matched set of NOS Sylvania STRs. In that amp they should last forever.
Now THAT would be a great photo with a nice blued 1911A1. :D

My point was that those old radios will still pick up the same channels today and quite often sound better than a brand new radio.
Listen to an AM station with the stock radio from a 1954 Plymouth Belvedere. Hook up a decent speaker to it and compare it with the top of the line ubertuners. Talk radio and old country music never sounded so good.


The tube amp compared to a 1911 is a great analogy. With a modicum of knowledge they can both be peaked and tweaked to get them just the way that suits you best.
 
yeah yeah yeah. It's true, I've only owned one 1911, and let me tell you, that was enough. It could be because Paras suck, I don't know. I had a friend with a P10 that was a jammamatic, even worse than my P14 POS. I've shot quite a few Springfield Armory 1911's, some were OK, some sucked. One of them stovepiped just about every 3rd round.

The reason IPSC guys use 1911's is because they've rigged the power factor so that you have to use .45 (at least, that's what I was told).

As far as the extractor design, yes, I DO have a problem with the fact that a piece of steel that has to be hard (to extract thousands of rounds reliably) also has to be ductile (to act as a spring). Sorry, you can't have it both ways. This is why just about every handgun that has come out since the 1911 has a spring loaded extractor.

Lastly, I do not think my lorcin example is so far fetched. The point is that any gun, even a 1911, can me made reliable with a lot of TLC. But a good gun design shouldn't need it. If you wigged out a lorcin with all kinds of crazy machined extended safties, slide stops, beavertail safeties, trigger jobs, blah blah blah yes, it would be a good gun. Of couse, the question would be, why not customize a better gun to begin with, rather than a crappy lorcin? Yes... well, i would say the same thing about all this 1911 customization. How well do you think your 1911 would feed hollowpoints if you didn't have someone polish the feedramp?

Putting a gun in the mud says nothing about it's reliability. I could put the biggest POS in the world in a pile of dirt. What does that prove? That's right... nothing.

Oh yeah, and when it comes to military testing and evaluation of firearms, excuse me if I lose interest. Aren't these the same clowns that told us the M14 was better rifle than the AR-15 in the 50's?!!? C'mon! It's the same thing over and over with them, keep the old, screw the new, fire discipline over volume of fire, blah blah blah. Just a bunch of old guys who think that if it "ain't got a traditional stock like the old springfield, I don't want it. Now a Garand, there's a rifle!". It's closed-minded backwards ideas like that which got our troops killed in Vietnam as we scrambled to introduce the M16 ASAP when we realized how outgunned we were against the AK-47. The same bunch that kept us with the 1911 for decades, while the rest of the world moved forward with the browning hi power. The only reason the military never realized how out of date the 1911 design was can be attributed to the fact that pistols have little if any role in military combat.
 
Oh yeah, and when it comes to military testing and evaluation of firearms, excuse me if I lose interest. Aren't these the same clowns that told us the M14 was better rifle than the AR-15 in the 50's?!!? C'mon! It's the same thing over and over with them, keep the old, screw the new, fire discipline over volume of fire, blah blah blah. Just a bunch of old guys who think that if it "ain't got a traditional stock like the old springfield, I don't want it. Now a Garand, there's a rifle!". It's closed-minded backwards ideas like that which got our troops killed in Vietnam as we scrambled to introduce the M16 ASAP when we realized how outgunned we were against the AK-47. The same bunch that kept us with the 1911 for decades, while the rest of the world moved forward with the browning hi power. The only reason the military never realized how out of date the 1911 design was can be attributed to the fact that pistols have little if any role in military combat.

I estimate that this paragraph contains sufficient tinder for at least 7 separate flame wars.



If someone already has all the answers, why do they bother asking questions? :confused:
 
Well, I don't claim to have all the answers, hell, I don't even hate the 1911. But my experience indicates that there is a good chance this gun gets a lot more kudos than it deserves, probably for historical reasons. If I was sure that the 1911 sucked, then I wouldn't be here playing devil's advocate, trying to see if someone could convince me otherwise. But the reasoning I've seen so far isn't really persuading me. Also, may bashing of the military's testing procedures wasn't intended to start a flame war, but to negate one of the round-about reasons given as to why the 1911 is so great. I mean, does anyone really put their faith in US military tests? Guns and govn't don't mix, right? This is the same gov't that recommended the Krag when the enemy had the Mauser (which they later fixed with the 1903), the same gov't that recommended the M14 over the AR15 (which they later fixed with the M16), the same gov't that built the Garand while the Germans built the MP44?
 
As others have said, "What Tamara and Tuner said":D

I have seven 1911's. For serious social purposes, and sport shooting, there is no equal. I am a mechanical engineer, and the 1911 is one of the greatest mechanical masterpieces ever devised.
 
This is why just about every handgun that has come out since the 1911 has a spring loaded extractor.
Oh Really?

The reason IPSC guys use 1911's is because they've rigged the power factor so that you have to use .45 (at least, that's what I was told).
It would seem that you are very selective as to which rumors you choose to believe.
Please don't let anything as trivial as facts cloud your thinking.

If you wigged out a lorcin with all kinds of crazy machined extended safties, slide stops, beavertail safeties, trigger jobs, blah blah blah yes, it would be a good gun.
No it wouldn't.


It would seem that you already have all of the answers. That your brain has already absorbed all it needs to support your opinions. Personally, I think you need to free up som RAM.
 
Blues,

Well, what other handgun (automatic) comes without a sping-loaded extractor then? Not the Beretta 92, not the HK USP or P7, not the Glock, not the Sig 22(x), not the Browning hi power, what? Lorcin?:scrutiny:

I thought you couldn't compete against the 1911 guys with a hicap 9mm. Is this true? I guess you're saying it isn't then? That would certainly affect how I view the 1911, if I knew that people were using it when they could use something else in 9mm.
 
My point was that those old radios will still pick up the same channels today and quite often sound better than a brand new radio.

That's because of their tuners, the circuits are substantially inferior in general with a few exceptions.

Listen to an AM station with the stock radio from a 1954 Plymouth Belvedere. Hook up a decent speaker to it and compare it with the top of the line ubertuners. Talk radio and old country music never sounded so good.

Because of the speaker. The speakers of the past ten years are light years ahead of the speakers of 1954. Old tuners and new speakers.....then you've really got something....

I love old stereo equipment, but old speakers are JUNK through and through.
 
Oh me...

Okay...Flat statement mode on:

The spring-loaded external is there because it's cheaper and easier...not
because it's superior.

The double-stack Paras are NOT 1911s. Neither is the Commander, and
neither is the Defender/Officer's Model/ Champion/Pro Carry, etc. They
are variants/deviants. Rule One: The farther you stray from original
design parameters, the more likely you are to have problems.

The M-14 IS a better weapon than the AR-15/M-16 as a general-issue infantry rifle. Special Ops/LRRP/Recon/Pilot Survival, etc, is where "Jammin'
Jenny" shines.

But...you seem to have your mind made up and will not let the issue be
clouded by facts...so this was probably a waste of both time and bandwidth, so I'll leave it be.

But...do carry on.:rolleyes:

Cheers!
Tuner
 
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