What's up with the 1911

[Gabe]

The 1911 is popular because:

1. It looks cool
2. Is famous
3. Has a great trigger

The trigger is a big part of the mystique. Modern guns just aren't made that way anymore.

Pistols have evolved since the 1911, but most of the innovations are not immediatly useful to the civilian enthusiast. For example, highcap - not needed for most defense situations; polymer - nice for mil logistics, ugly if its your money; double action - great for raw recruits.

As a civilian buyer, you can afford to try out a few 1911s and toss the lemons. The military want no none sense reliability out of the box. Personally if I'm in the jungle and I came across an old crate of left behind guns I'd pass the 1911 for a Glock. But as a shooter a gun is more than a tool, it's a passtime. The 1911 is a lot more fun, and inspires people to go shooting more than a Glock. And if you practice a LOT, it'll serve as well as anyother, possibly better in some applications.

 

[WonderNine]

If I came across an old crate of 1911's and an old crate of Glocks I'd take the 1911's, but that's just me...

 

[FNFiveSeven]

I agree with you there Gabe, double actions and crap triggers are actually steps backwards taken to accomodate inexperienced shooters and lawyers. I also agree that the second best triggers I've felt (on pistols anyway) were 1911 triggers (the Sig 210's trigger is better than best 1911's however, and anyone here who has shot one of those will probably agree). However, I've always chalked that up to the fact that there are boatloads of guys who spend all their time modifying 1911 triggers. It's sort of this self fullfilling prophecy. If the custom gun industry was built around say... the Glock 17 instead of the 1911, I'm sure the best triggers would wind up being Glock triggers. If I paid 3k for a Les Baer Glock, I'm sure everything about it would we awesome (including the trigger). But the way I see it, because America is obsessed with the 1911, all the custom gun R&D is poured into the 1911, at the expense of every other potentially great handgun.

Reluctantly, I might have to concede that, with the support of the entire custom gun industry, the 1911 is one of the better guns out there. However, this comes at a terrible price. Just think what could have been if some of that custom smithing had been spread around a bit, huh? I think the browning Hi power has the potential to beat the 1911 in every catagory imaginable, especially in the area of ergonomics (and that's with the double stacked mag).

 

[WonderNine]

If the custom gun industry was built around say... the Glock 17 instead of the 1911, I'm sure the best triggers would wind up being Glock triggers.

Taking into account the designs of the two....I don't see how that's possible.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

You would do it by changing the design. The original 1911 specs didn't have provisions for removing all the take up and overtravel, but it was added anyway. Same could be done for any other model pistol, all it takes is enough motivation and money. Although in hindsight, I admit the Glock was a bad example, simply because putting an ultralight match style trigger into it wouldn't make much sense thanks to the lack of a safety.

So alright, alright, let's get the final answer once and for all. Let's compare the 1911 to its immediate successor, the Browning Hi Power (and let's make them both 40 S&W so that there's no dumb 9mm vs 45 stuff).

Ergonomics: Browning Hi Power (perhaps the best feeling pistol I've ever held, although this is a hard thing to prove one way or the other)

Reliability: Browning Hi Power. The feed ramp and extractor design are much better on the BHP.

Weight: Browning Hi Power weighs less, for whatever that's worth

Magazine capacity: Hi power wins again, unless less is somehow better

Field Stripping: Hi power by a MILE. No barrel bushing wrench garbage to deal with here.

Accuracy: Hmmm, I really don't know to be honest. I guess you would have to compare a cylinder and slide top model to Les Baer's best to get the final answer here.

Trigger: 1911. Although I'd suspect that with infinite money, the BHP could be just as good (except there would always have to be take up).

Safety system: Tie

Anything I've overlooked?

 

[WonderNine]

The original 1911 specs didn't have provisions for removing all the take up and overtravel, but it was added anyway.

I don't know, while the BHP is my favorite pistol by far, I have to wonder what you're talking about here.

Perhaps you're talking about the original 1911 specs that were written in 1908 or whatever, but I have a couple of 1950's 1911's that have no take up or overtravel and 99% never had much. This is one of the least overtravel and takeup problem having pistols you'll ever find.

"but it was added anyways"

When and what are you referring to?

 

[FNFiveSeven]

I'm talking about those weirdo triggers with the set screw design that can be adjusted to modify the trigger throw.

 

[1911Tuner]

Overlooked?

Anything I've overlooked?


Aside from the fact that you have very little idea of what you're talking about...

Slack and Overtravel.

In-spec triggers and frames don't allow for much take-up, and it's there mainly to prevent an unintantioal discharge and to give the trigger a little
more travel room to prevent inertial discharge. The overtravel stop is
built in to the grip safety...and it's not for target shooting. It's to keep
from getting the disconnect in a bind with too much enthusiam on the trigger.

No barrel bushing wrench is required unless a hard-fit bushing has been fitted as part of an accuracy job. Match-tuned 1911s are amazingly accurate, but they are meant for the target range, and are essentially
toys.

While the P35 is also a very good design, the ergonomics don't suit everybody the same way that thay do for you. For one, the thumb safety needs to be bigger. FWIW, the P-35's original design extractor was an internal, and very close to the same design as the 1911. The external
was a modification that came along several years after Browning died...
and the reason was to save costs.

 

[WonderNine]

I'm talking about those weirdo triggers with the set screw design that can be adjusted to modify the trigger throw.

Are you referring to Colt Gold Cups??? LoL...

For one, the thumb safety needs to be bigger.

Only for you! I prefer the smaller safety.

The external
was a modification that came along several years after Browning died...
and the reason was to save costs.

I didn't know unions were big and 1911 gunsmiths were short back in 1930.

I didn't know they were trying to save costs on the BHP before it was release by switching to an external extractor instead of an internal one made out of "spring steel".

 

[1911Tuner]

Unions?

I didn't know unions were big and 1911 gunsmiths were short back in 1930.

Unions didn't have anything to do with it...It was that same old thing that drives the companies to use MIM and investment castings nowadays.
Profit...The bottom line....If we can save a dollar per gun, we can pay
a higher dividend. The company will grow and prosper, and all it'll
take is cutting a little cost here and a little there.

Look at the 1911's original extractor, and look at any external. Which one
do you think would be harder to machine? (Read...More costly)

Think about it...

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[WonderNine]

So you're saying a spring out of spring steel was harder to machine back in 1930 than a straight piece of metal out of barstock. Ok maybe....

Is there any historical evidence for this or are you just making a logical guess?

 

[FNFiveSeven]

I realize from your name, 1911Tuner, that you are and always will be a 1911 fan, but c'mon let's not be rediculous here. It really doesn't matter whether you need a barrel bushing wrench or not, since only a fool would argue that it's harder to disassemble the BHP than it is to dissassemble the 1911. And most if not ALL high end 1911's... the same ones you 1911 guys rail on about, require a barrel wrench to dissassemble. Either way even the loosest 1911 is harder to take apart than the BHP. But hey, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about, right? Does anyone else here think it's easier to strip down a 1911 than a BHP?

As far as the extractor issue, yes I know the original BHP has an internal 1911 style extractor, a mistake that was fixed in later production years. Changing to an external, spring loaded extractor made the extractor less prone to breakage, AND was less expensive. So the switch over was a no brainer. Are you really implying that the external extractor design is cutting corners to save on costs?

Yes, you are right, ergonomics are a personal preference. But over 90% of the people I know prefer the feel of BHP.

EVERYONE prefers the higher capacity of the BHP (except Feinstein).

 

[FNFiveSeven]

The Sig 210 has an external extractor. With a cheap gun like the sig210, you have to save all the pennies every chance you get. They probably preferred the internal design, but couldn't justify the cost. $2000 is just fine, but no one would pay $2000.50, even if the design was better. Right?

 

[WonderNine]

Changing to an external, spring loaded extractor made the extractor less prone to breakage,

You're talking about the BHP right? Where's the spring....

 

[FNFiveSeven]

Yeah, I'm talking about the BHP. The spring pushes on the extractor, you have to take it apart to see (I think... I don't have mine in front of me).

 

[WonderNine]

I usually refer to it as the ejector spring, but most people don't I guess.....

 

[Tamara]

blackrazor,

EVERYONE prefers the higher capacity of the BHP (except Feinstein).

...and FBI SWAT/HRT, and SFOD-Delta, who all used to carry BHP's at one time or another, but dumped them for 1911's. Maybe they had a hard time getting high-cap mags?

Look, I'm outta this one. You have made so many factually incorrect statements about mechanics, gun design, history, IPSC rules, et cetera, that I don't even know where to begin the rebuttal process.

It would behoove you to remember that, especially on a board of this size, there are people who know for a fact things that you merely speculate on. Save yourself the embarrassment that I suffer every time I have to look back at posts I made on TFL and GlockTalk 3+ years ago about how badly outdated the 1911 design is and quit while you're behind. I hate looking at those old posts and realizing that I was largely talking out my nether regions.

 

[Sean Smith]

The reason IPSC guys use 1911's is because they've rigged the power factor so that you have to use .45 (at least, that's what I was told).

As I noted elsewhere, you could at least give actually knowing somethig about what you are talking about a try. It can really come in handy.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Rules14_2001.pdf

Get back to us where you can show that the rules are "rigged" to require a .45, tough guy.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

Sorry Tamara, but I'm calling BS on all of this. Let's just lay it out, point by point.

FBI/HRT: Who cares, these guys suck, they're more of a model of what not to do.

Delta: These guys choose their own weaponry, and the only guy I know who's delta uses a Beretta 92 Brigadier.

IPSC rules: Major power factor requires bullet weight x velocity/1000 > 175. So a 9mm won't cut it. I'm right on here, so what's the problem? (BTW, this is stupid criteria using the bullets momentum as the "power factor." By this logic, a hand thrown rock has a "major" power factor, but .223 doesn't (yes, it's true). Didn't the guys who wrote the IPSC rules ever take physics... or were they just desperate to stack the deck in favor of the good 'ol 45? )

I have yet to see you point out ONE factually incorrect statement. JUST ONE!

And yes, this is a large board, which means there are quite a few people on it who know what they're talking about... and quite a few who don't. Want to read some factually incorrect BS? Just read some of the threads on here about optics.

 

[Sean Smith]

I have yet to see you point out ONE factually incorrect statement. JUST ONE!

Here is one for you:

IPSC rules: Major power factor requires bullet weight x velocity/1000 > 175. So a 9mm won't cut it. I'm right on here, so what's the problem? (BTW, this is stupid criteria using the bullets momentum as the "power factor." By this logic, a hand thrown rock has a "major" power factor, but .223 doesn't (yes, it's true). Didn't the guys who wrote the IPSC rules ever take physics... or were they just desperate to stack the deck in favor of the good 'ol 45? )

Try reading the rule book. Major power factor is 165, minimum caliber for Major in most classes is .40. Hence your claim of stacking the deck to require .45 ACP is objectively incorrect. Read the rules and you will see that almost any .40 S&W autoloader could legally compete in almost any handgun class in USPSA, and factory .40 S&W can easily make Major PF (180gr @ 950 ft/sec is 171 PF). But to know that you'd have to actually read something instead of making stuff up.

Incidentally, at the higher levels, not so many people are shooting .45 ACP in USPSA; .40 S&W and .38 Super are the dominant calibers. The exception would be Limited-10, not because of the rules but because alot of folks like shooting their single-stack .45 ACP 1911s with 10 round extended magazines in that class, and there haven't been 10 round .40/10mm extended magazines for single-stack 1911s until recently. A .40 S&W BHP would be fine for that class on paper, as would any .40 S&W gun loaded with 10+1 rounds. But again, to know that you'd have to actually read the USPSA rule book and have a passing knowledge of the sport.

Since I doubt you know this, USPSA is the US region of IPSC, which is why I linked to the USPSA rule book.

And Power Factor isn't meant to do anything but serve as a simple estimate of RECOIL to keep the competition fair. It seems to do that quite well, not that you'd know based on your perfect ignorance of the sport.

 

[Waitone]

Hey Moderator!

Psycho Ceramics is OT.

I'm outta here.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

So... you're saying that it's "unfair" to use a BHP (9mm) to shoot against a 1911 (i.e. a 45)? I would've thought that it would have been the other way around, what with the superiority of the 1911 and all. The major power factor excludes 9mm's so that people can still claim the 1911 is "competitive" and "the best." I agree, the 1911 is the best low-capacity heavy recoiling automatic out there.

 

[Sean Smith]

So... you're saying that it's "unfair" to use a BHP (9mm) to shoot against a 1911 (i.e. a 45)? I would've thought that it would have been the other way around, what with the superiority of the 1911 and all. The major power factor excludes 9mm's so that people can still claim the 1911 is "competitive" and "the best." I agree, the 1911 is the best low-capacity heavy recoiling automatic out there.

Are you even paying attention?

We are talking about a game scored on a combination of accuracy and speed. In a timed competition, a lighter-recoiling gun has an advantage over a heavier-recoiling gun. Duh. Hence the power factor exists to level the playing field by requiring that recoil be roughly equal to score Major in a given class.

Yes, Major power factor excludes 9mm from some classes. It also INCLUDES every .40 S&W gun on the Earth (and depending on the class, .38 Super too), so you can hardly say that requiring Major power factor automatically results in everybody using a .45 ACP gun, let alone a 1911, since there are alot of non-1911 .45 ACP guns out there, too. But of course you knew that, right?

Remember, we are comparing designs, not calibers. A 9x19 will recoil less than a .45 ACP in any gun of comparable size/mass. That tells us nothing about the gun designs per se, just the obvious fact that more power means more recoil. Welcome to planet Earth.

Put another way, since the BHP is such a superior design to a 1911 (according to you, anyway), why doesn't the .40 S&W BHP dominate the .40 S&W and .45 ACP 1911s in Limited-10 class?

So your persistent argument that the USPSA rules are structured to favor .45 ACP 1911s is just, to be blunt, imbecillic.

To conclude:

 

[FNFiveSeven]

Assuming you want to be using a single action gun, NO, they're aren't a lot of other .45's out there to choose from. But you knew this, right?

Look. You've just said (twice now) that it's unfair to use a double stacked 9mm in a competition against a 1911. This is because the 1911 is an inferior design, yes? Speed to hit the target it all important in a combat situation. So why the hell would you opt for a 1911, unless of course you are just playing "games" where the rules more-or-less require it.

 

[BluesBear]

A learned man* once said;

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required...
for others, no explanation will do.


I'll give you this blackrazor, what you severely lack in firearms knowledge you more than make up for with a profound knowledge of excremental fertilizer deployment.

I am outta here.





*Baba Louie THR 09/29/03