What's up with the 1911

[FNFiveSeven]

Well Sean, more BS.

"A 9x19 in any gun will recoil less than a .45 ACP in any gun."

WRONG. Recoil energy is inversely proportional to the mass of the gun. A heavy .45 will recoil less than a light 9mm. Ever fire a deringer, oh all knowing firearms expert? You guys have a lot of nerve telling me that I know nothing about firearms when you run around making statements like that

"Remember, we are comparing designs, not calibers."

BTW, caliber is part of the firearms design, a pretty important one at that. so we are comparing calibers.

 

[1911Tuner]

Logic?

Is there any historical evidence for this or are you just making a logical guess

As to what? That the external is easier...and cheaper...to mackine than the internal. No, that's a fact based on machinist/tool and die/
engineering experience.

Economics? It's a matter of money...always. The lowest bidder gets the contract...always has. On the civilian market, the corporate bean counters spend hours trying to find a way to save a dime. I guess you could call that historical evidence, since cost of production vs profit has always been a major factor in any product. If one machining step can be omitted, then so is the fixture or jig that's needed to hold and locate the part to be machined. So you save time and tooling costs. It adds up quickly over a year's production run.

Razor...yes, you can guess by my username that I'm a fan. I'm also an
armorer. Been at it 40 years come this April. Been into a few P-35s over
the years too.

I'm offa this one...*poof*

 

[sm]

blackrazor
I have the right to be wrong - so do you.

I would suggest that a research of the history and why the design of the 1911 makes it the way it is - is in order.

The reality is, in the harsh environs of "kill or be killed" the 1911 does what is what it is designed to do - and has for many many years.

In the harsh environs the pistol is a tool unto itself, that spring steel extractor , firing pin...et al can be easily removed, field stripped, cleaned and back in action.

Yes the pistol will run [ read fire, extract and keep shooting] in dirt, cold, wet, rain and MUD. I know because I have actually tested mine . As many before me have done.

In the real world be it Military Law Enforcement, or maybe the civilian, saving one's life does not always occur on a sunshine day and temps in the 70's.

Some of the folks on this board btw have used that 1911 design to fight with, to preserve the freedom which allows you to bash and trash the very gun that saved their life, or those of fellow soldiers, officers or family.

People have the right to be wrong.

I'm excercising my right to choose the pistol design I believe in - the 1911.
Since I often carry one, that means I'm betting my life on it - as many here do and have done so over the years.

What are you betting your life on?

Personally, I don't care what a person choses , per se'.

My criteria is and always has been , the gun fit must shooter in a platform [MOA] in the largest caliber that affords quick accurate hits with ammo that is reliable in said gun.

I prefer the 1911 , the BHP and the K frame Smith's for my use. I prefer a J frame for a BUG.

I do however reserve the right to be wrong.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

sm,

Yes, of course you have the right to carry whatever you want. That's your decision and no one else can make it for you. And yes, I realize that the 1911 has served our country well for decades. But it seems to me it's time has passed. I think it would reflect rathery poorly about human innovation if a 100 year old handgun was "still the best." If it were 1930, yeah sure I'd bet my life on the 1911, just as I would bet my life on a sword if it were 1200. But it's 2004, and I think there are better tools available. Ah well, to each there own.

 

[Brian Williams]

If the BHP is such a nice and well designed gun, why was it not chosen as the replacement for the 1911 when they started wearing out after 40+ years of service. Now my next question is why have the various services turned back to the 1911 as the sidearm of choice in combat situations.

I truly desire a BHP because they are a nice firearm, but I will not trade in my 1953 Sistema Colt to do so.

I have been a Marine and that is where I decided the 1911 was a great weapon. I have been an Industrial Arts teacher and am now a BioMedical Technician. In all of my time as a "Shop" Teacher and as a Biomed I have come to appreciate the KISS principle. The simpler and sturdier the tool or machine the longer it will last and the better it will preform over the life of the tool or machine.

So what's the deal? Have I missed something?

YES. It is called Keep It Simple S...

 

[Ky Larry]

The point that many seem to miss about the 1911 is that what we buy today is not what was avaiable 75 years ago. The original design specs were for a pistol that would function in harsh environments with a minimun of cleaning and maintainence.Reliability was more important than tack driving accuracy. It was a combat pistol. If you build a 1911 to the original specs with the proper materials, you will have what JMB originally intended;i.e. a COMBAT PISTOL.
The design, materials, and manufacturing process have evolved over the years and not always for the better. However, the adaptability and funtionality of the design never fail to amaze me. We have chopped it, lightened it,rechambered it,tightened it, accurized it, bobbed it, and tweeked it and the thing,for the most part, still works! The very fact that we are still talking about this gun almost a century after its inception makes a more powerful statement about the genius of JWB than anything I can say.
I ccw a full size Kimber Custom Defender II .45 ACP every day. Feel free to bash and trash my choice all you want. I have read many well informed,reasonable arguments against the 1911, but when it comes to protecting me and my family, I'll stick with what I trust. Shoot well and often.

 

[Sean Smith]

Well Sean, more BS.

From you, yes.

"A 9x19 in any gun will recoil less than a .45 ACP in any gun."

WRONG. Recoil energy is inversely proportional to the mass of the gun. A heavy .45 will recoil less than a light 9mm. Ever fire a deringer, oh all knowing firearms expert? You guys have a lot of nerve telling me that I know nothing about firearms when you run around making statements like that

I guess you missed the part about "of comparable size/mass" in my post. Duh...

"Remember, we are comparing designs, not calibers."

BTW, caliber is part of the firearms design, a pretty important one at that. so we are comparing calibers.

Except that you can get the same designs in multiple calibers. Thus, a proper comparison would be of a .40 S&W BHP to, say, a .40 S&W 1911. And to claim that one design is inferior because it fires a bigger/more powerful cartridge than the other can cope with is on the face of it rather senseless.

I'm outta here too.

 

[BluesBear]

Flawed logic (again)

I think it would reflect rathery poorly about human innovation if a 100 year old ________ was "still the best.

Just a few examples of things that are over 100 years old and still the best at what they do.

Fingernail File,

Scissors,

Knife, Fork & Spoon,

Flush Toilets,

Toilet Tissue,

Kleenex,

Electric Lights,

Dry cell betteries,

Smokless Gunpowder,

Self Contained Metallic Cartridges,

Self Contained Metallic Cartridges !!!

Hold it, wait a minute! How can that be??
How stupid are we for building all of these new-fangled superior guns just to shoot something that is over 100 years old?

WOW and most of them are chambered for cartridges that are over 100 years old to boot!

.22 rimfire
.45 Colt
.44 Special
.38 Special
.38 Automatic (which later became the .38 Super the very first +P)
9mm Parabellum

All of those calibers should be totally obsolete because they are all over 100 years old!



By the way that means that the Browning High Power will be totally obsolete for anything serious in about 20 years?

 

[Chuck Jennings]

Thanks to Blues Bear!

 

[Ankeny]

Pearls before swine.

 

[Dave Sample]

A truly amazing thread! I find your input here very interesting. Keep up the good work!

 

[Gewehr98]

BluesBear, I *upgraded* to Svetlana 6550C's and Sovtek 12AX7/12AT7 tubes.

I didn't like the Chinese military tubes that came with the amp, and the Soviet tubes came highly recommended. My dad's a vintage radio/amplifier guru, and he's promised me either a matched set of Mullards or Golden Lions for that amplifier. I understand that either RCA or Philips is busting their humps trying to recapture the pentode and triode tube market, demand is picking up so much these days. Kinda like the 1911, it never really goes out of style.

I'm starting another thread using that "obsolete" analogy, it's too strong a visual to pass up. Truthfully, the only thing obsolete about the 1911 is Blackrazor's frame of mind.

 

[BluesBear]

Well the Chinese tubes are great if you want your sound system to sound like a garage grunge band playing through Marshall wannabes.

The Russian 6550s are actually pretty good. I was deceived by the height of the tubes since the bases are recessed it appeared that they were 6L6GCs.

A good set of Mullards are hard to come by these days. I used to have an Ampeg SVT with 6 Mullards in it.
When I used my Hipshot for drop D we called it spermacide.

 

[rich2u]

Alllll righty lets stir it up some more. How come when the army tested for their new pistol the Berreta won? I mean they could have rechambered the 1911 in 9mm for the euro compatibality issue right? I thought the Berreta came out on tops because of reliability?

Oh & I think anyone who would pick a 9mm over a 45 in a combat situation is nuts anyways... Just ask the FBI about the 9mm.

I also have noticed that everyone I've ever talked to who owns a Glock just loves them & usually buys more than 1 in different calibres.Isn't the Glock supposed to be super reliable as well? Don't most police departments use the Glock today?


Ignorant & seeking to not be

 

[George Hill]

No, let's not stir anything up.
I have no idea why I let this little flame fest continue for so long.


Closed.