The Theory of Overpenetration

[mothermopar]

There is ALWAYS a rebuttal to someone's weapon choice concerning overpenetration. Now, its understood that a full auto 50 BMG isn't a good SD/HD choice against people in an urban area because the rounds will go through buildings.

But for your typical SD/HD weapon... 12 gauge buckshot, 9mm, 45 ACP, etc... there seems to be alot of misplaced concern that leads the ignorant masses to use birdshot in their shotguns, or some underpowered weapon/ammo... all of which can get the VICTIM killed.

So I propose this:

CAN ANYONE PROVIDE DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF A SUSPECT GETTING HIT CENTER MASS, THE PROJECTILE PASSING THROUGH THE SUSPECT AND INJURING/KILLING AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER?!?!

If the above question can not be answered, then why is everyone SO damned concerned about overpenetration? Because theoretically it can happen?!?!

I'd really like to hear some examples to justify the hysteria. Theory is what it is... a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena; a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation; an unproved assumption (Merriam-Webster).

My stance is that people should be more concerned about training well and often with the right weapon/ammo to do the job right and this alone will reduce the concern of overpenetration. It seems that folks who are overly concerned about overpenetration use this theory as a crutch to justify their lack of training and subsequently rely upon the use of less than ideal weapons/ammo. It's the mentality of: "I don't practice enough, so I'm not confident with my gun/ammo, so I will miss and I best use ammo that won't go through a wall".

 

[CoRoMo]

Oh, I think there has to have been LE shootings where a round went through the BG and hit someone else. Maybe not center of mass, but that's not exactly what the whole 'over-penetration concern' is about. Hitting someone in a less-than-center-mass location is going to be where the over-penetration aspect materializes. But I don't want to go Googling for you to find the stories your asking about, because over-penetration isn't something I waste time thinking about.

Training for such things and committing yourself to rule #4 will be the best plan.

 

[mothermopar]

I just really want to know if this has happened. I don't know of any specific story or documented example. I'm critical of this overpenetration idea, but I'm also smart enough to realize that its possible... I just need some real world proof (and so should others) as to why some choose what is widely considered crappy defensive weapons/ammo.

 

[Cosmoline]

Been there, done that:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=159372

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=23762&highlight=NYPD

The bottom line is, if a round is powerful enough to reliably stop someone from trying to kill you, that round is by definition powerful enough to penetrate through them and hit something else. There's no way to avoid it. The best solution, contrary to conventional wisdom, is not to get undergunned handguns, but to use high velocity softpoint rifle rounds which will consistently expand and fragment. They may still penetrate through, but if they're in pieces the chance of seriously hurting a bystander are minimized.

And there's also no question that just plain MISSING is a much bigger threat than overpenetration, which again supports using the long gun with the higher velocity round. Better chance of hitting, and much more damage if you do it.

 

[mothermopar]

You see, Cosmoline... that's my point (I looked at your other posts)... if a round is effective in stopping a thug, then it by necessity can penetrate through the thug.

I'm just glad I'm not in the camp of being so concerned with overpenetration as to under-arm myself and risk becoming a dead victim, heaven forbid that circumstance ever arises.

I think it goes to having a more timid mindset... being more affraid of the unlikely than what is reality. Timid and firearms are two terms that should be regarded as oxymorons.

Anyway, as Teddy Roosevelt once said:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

 

[Guvnor]

Murphy's law comes to mind.

I think its wrong to assume that all of your shots will be perfectly placed in a bad guy's center of mass when you take stuff like adrenaline into account.

Id rather use an "underpowered weapon" like a shotgun with birdshot than risk sending bullets sailing through the neighborhood.

 

[huntsman]

to avoid over penetration just remember size matters; if the perp is 165# or less you pull the .380acp, 166-300# the .45acp over 300# count on you feet to save you

 

[KodiakBeer]

FBI Notes on Misplaced Over-penetration fears:

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might “over-penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.

http://www.lesjones.com/2006/04/28/fbi-notes-on-misplaced-over-penetration-fears-fbi-miami-shootout/

Edited to add: Even though they are unaware of any successful legal actions against FBI agents, your mileage as a civilian may vary. I'd keep defensive firearms within limits that are defensible in civil actions. Ie; I won't be cutting loose with my FAL on a home intruder...

 

[Jumping Frog]

Combat Handguns reported on a NYPD study in Mar. '08:

Using FMJ (1996-1997 NYPD)
33% of casualties resulted from shooting through felony suspects.
13% of casualties resulted from penetrating through objects and striking unseen bystanders.

So in other words, 46% of the "friendly fire" casualties was the result of overpenetrating FMJ.

During that same time period(the article doesn't say where)
44 LEOS were struck by gunfire - 2 of those were from bullets that ricocheted and 17 were hit by bullets that passed through other people first.
42% of casualties due to overpenetration.


Of course, the other way of looking at it is the NYPD Firearms Discharge Report for 2006 showed that NYPD Officers only had 43% hits from 0-2 yards. In all they fired 540 shots for 182 hits for an overall hit ratio of 34% at all distances. I am more worried about the 358 shots that missed altogether than the one that went through the suspect and hit someone else.

 

[mothermopar]

Jumping Frog and Kodiak Bear... you two are presenting conflicting data...

 

[VA27]

The average human torso is 9" thick, front to back (not taking into account the media hysteria about the American obesity crisis).

Unless it strikes bone, a 22 short solid will penetrate more than 9".

IIRC, FBI protocol calls for a minimum of 12" of penetration to allow for intervening barriers or side to side shots.

SWAT entry teams are leaving the 9mm (out of subguns) behind and going to the AR15/M4 and fragmenting ammo because the 5.56/.223 offers less chance of overpenetration.

Use the best ammo you can afford that is accurate in your gun and remember rule #4.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Jumping Frog and Kodiak Bear... you two are presenting conflicting data...

Not really. The FBI is saying that they miss 70-80% of the time. And that hollowpoints often fail to expand anyway and become "FMJ's" when plugged with clothing, drywall, etc, no matter what round you use. So, narrowing your choice due to fear of over-penetration doesn't make as much sense as the lawyers would have you believe. If you're going to hit a guy down the street or in the next apartment, it's more likely to be a miss rather than the one that goes through the BG. Taken in context, this is in defense of the 10mm round, and the lawyer talk surrounding its adoption by the FBI.

However, note the underlying context - law enforcement is pretty much exempt from legal prosecution, while you and I aren't. So... I wouldn't take this to the bank. I wouldn't over-gun by carrying a Ruger Alaskan say, instead of a .45acp. I wouldn't use a 30.06 with hunting loads as a primary home defense weapon.

 

[Jamyatunes]

I agree with the OP's premise and I also do not spend my time worrying about over-penetration.

However, it does happen. Just off the top of my head, the GOV Wallace shooting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Bremer#The_shooting

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I'm sure there are examples but I don't have them and don't want to look for them. The bottom line I've come to believe for myself is that anything that is adequate for self defense will have the potential for over penetration. For example, if a bullet is designed to penetrate the chest sufficently, it will likely pass through someones neck if that is where you hit.

It really comes down to Col. Jeff Cooper's rule number 4 which loosely parapharsed is be mindful of your target and what is in front and behind it.

 

[mothermopar]

Excellent facts, interpretations and opinions folks!

I just feel 'we' in the gun-nut category of society need to field a singluar, concise (paragraph or so in length) statement concerning overpenetration that can be used to defuse misguided accusations, outlandish claims and to also GUIDE fellow gun enthusiasts as to proper weapon and ammo selection.

The FBI's statement does well to dispell some over reaction and misguided trains of thought... but it doesn't necessarily guide the uninitiated in the right direction.

You all see what I'm trying to get at?

 

[Oyeboten]

Yes...worrying about overpenetration in bystanders, in the 70-odd percent of nationwide LEO missed-the-bg-anyway, would make more sense, as far as basic logic.

Or maybe, the primary implication suggested in the raw statitistics, is the matter of hitting the BG in the first place, and, keeping one's rounds 'there' instead of missing...second to which, would be issues of underpenetration, or, overpenetration.

 

[Southern Rebel]

Combat Handguns reported on a NYPD study in Mar. '08:

I fully admit to shameful prejudice, but I can think of only one use for any paper showing statistics gathered by the NYPD - and trust me, it doesn't involve changing my tools and/or methods of self-defense.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I fully admit to shameful prejudice, but I can think of only one use for any paper showing statistics gathered by the NYPD - and trust me, it doesn't involve changing my tools and/or methods of self-defense.

Similar thoughts... I find it hard to believe that NYPD hits the target twice as often as FBI agents. I'm guessing NYPD is just more likely to under-report the number of shots fired.

 

[Warhawk83]

Mopar,I see where you are coming from but I would NEVER advocate someone in an apartment using buckshot.

If you live in a complex you have a responsibility to do the best you can to make sure your *poop* don't hit your neighbors fan.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Mopar,I see where you are coming from but I would NEVER advocate someone in an apartment using buckshot.

If you live in a complex you have a responsibility to do the best you can to make sure your deleted - <Sam> don't hit your neighbors fan.

Why? Do you think a lead ball weighing 50 grains (00 buck) and traveling at 1100 feet per second is going to penetrate more than a 9mm (for example) weighing 124 grains and traveling at 1200 fps?

I'd actually use lighter buckshot for home defense, but even in the worst case scenario (00 buck), your neighbors are getting a break with the buckshot.

 

[Sunray]

"...concerned with overpenetration as to under-arm myself..." You are responsible for where every shot ends up. All it takes is one bullet or pellet leaving your house and hitting somebody or some thing down or across the street.
The problem is the number of people who buy a firearm, then don't bother learning how to shoot it.

 

[ofitg]

The bottom line is, if a round is powerful enough to reliably stop someone from trying to kill you, that round is by definition powerful enough to penetrate through them and hit something else. There's no way to avoid it. The best solution, contrary to conventional wisdom, is not to get undergunned handguns, but to use high velocity softpoint rifle rounds which will consistently expand and fragment. They may still penetrate through, but if they're in pieces the chance of seriously hurting a bystander are minimized.

And there's also no question that just plain MISSING is a much bigger threat than overpenetration, which again supports using the long gun with the higher velocity round. Better chance of hitting, and much more damage if you do it.

I tend to favor this approach, at least for people who live in single-family dwellings. If a lightweight .223 slug exits a traditional house at all, it will probably be in pieces or at least drastically slowed down and tumbling.

I think Jeff Cooper said "There are only two things to worry about in a gunfight. Number one, staying alive. Number two, everything else".

 

[W.E.G.]

Does an AK-47 bullet fragment enough to use inside the city limits?

 

[Erich]

CAN ANYONE PROVIDE DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF A SUSPECT GETTING HIT CENTER MASS, THE PROJECTILE PASSING THROUGH THE SUSPECT AND INJURING/KILLING AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER?!?!

I've worked on three such shootings - Mas discusses them in the above-cited Combat Handguns article.

 

[Bubba613]

Ah, we get into the "if it happened once then it is sure to happen to you" mindset. Truly among the least productive when it comes to SD. The truth is that police shootings are poor indicators for the private citizen for a number of reasons.
My philosophy has been "no gunfight was lost by over-penetration." I'll worry about the other stuff later.