The Theory of Overpenetration

[Buck Snort]

Mothermopar wrote: "If the above question can not be answered, then why is everyone SO damned concerned about overpenetration? Because theoretically it can happen?!?!"

Yeah, THEORETICALLY one could cause death by passing gass in a crowded elevator but what're the chances of it actually happening?

 

[Buck Snort]

Warhawk83 wrote: "If you live in a complex you have a responsibility to do the best you can to make sure your (deleted -- <Sam>) don't hit your neighbors fan."

Your FIRST responsibility is to insure that your and your's are alive after the shots are fired.


__________________

 

[Shawn Dodson]

"Overpenetration" assumes a bullet will hit center mass and have a long penetration path to negotiate before exiting the body.

Hits along the periphery of the body are much more likely to be perforating wounds than center mass hits, because of the shorter penetration path through the body.

Then there's appendage hits, that, probably, are more likely to be perforating wounds than not.

This assumes the bullet lands ANYWHERE on target in the first place. A bullet that misses the target presents greater danger downrange than one that perforates the target.

 

[Kleanbore]

If the above question [CAN ANYONE PROVIDE DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF A SUSPECT GETTING HIT CENTER MASS, THE PROJECTILE PASSING THROUGH THE SUSPECT AND INJURING/KILLING AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER?!?!] can not be answered, then why is everyone SO damned concerned about overpenetration? Because theoretically it can happen?!?!

What's theoretical about it? One can very easily demonstrate that a bullet can pass through something and one can show that it has happened.

Whether such a bullet has ever killed or injured someone else has been answered elsewhere in this thread, but even if it had not, the potential for injury or worse is obvious to anyone.

The likelihood is probably remote, but the consequence could include astronomical civil liability--and that's assuming that the circumstances did not expose the actor to charges of criminal negligence.

Of course, as Shawn Dodson points out, misses and hits on appendages constitute a risk also.

 

[Warhawk83]

Why? Do you think a lead ball weighing 50 grains (00 buck) and traveling at 1100 feet per second is going to penetrate more than a 9mm (for example) weighing 124 grains and traveling at 1200 fps?

No idea, 00 Buck was the example I used because that is what I use.

Your FIRST responsibility is to insure that your and your's are alive after the shots are fired.

Considering that your home invasion has not occured yet, you could do some research to make sure all parties involved (meaning in the other apartments) are as safe as they could be as well.

All you Rambos out there that live in apartments with paper thin walls that use guns that will shoot clean through the other end of the complex, inform your neighbors so they can move.

Never did I say that you don't have a right to defend yourself, just try to be responsible in doing so.

 

[KodiakBeer]

If you choose appropriate firearms for carry and home defense and you practice enough to be proficient with those firearms, then you're as ready as you can be. It's folly to sabotage your own mindset with a bunch of hypothetical scenarios about the remote possibility of shooting some third person beyond your target, when your life is at stake.

If you're in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm then shoot, and shoot without hesitation. It's a time for action, not a time to be over-analyzing and introducing a bunch of remote possibilities and "what if's" that merely slow down your response and possibly lead to your death.

Keep your M14 in the gun cabinet and choose a pistol caliber carbine (HP's), a shotgun (perhaps with lighter buck) or a hand gun for home defense, again with HP's. For carry, use the handgun you shoot best, but one in a reasonable and appropriate cartridge - not a .44 Mag. You've now done everything possible without compromising your own safety. Your choices are defensible in court, and that's the best you can hope for.

Aim your firearm at BG's chest and double tap. Repeat until BG falls down. Call the police. Call a lawyer. Keep your mouth shut.

 

[KodiakBeer]

No idea, 00 Buck was the example I used because that is what I use

Well, a ball of 00 is less than half the weight of even a 9mm, and traveling at less velocity. It's a light lead ball without a lot of kinetic energy. If does travel through the BG and then a couple layers of wall, it's probably going to be flattened out and traveling at very low velocity. It could possibly still kill, but the chances are remote. A lot of people have gone to lighter buck (#1 to #4) for home defense. It's actually more lethal at close range, but has far less danger of penetrating a through the wall into your neighbors house (as remote as that possibility is with even larger buck). At home distance ranges, buckshot hits as a solid mass than spreads out in a cone inside the body.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

 

[Cosmoline]

All you Rambos out there that live in apartments with paper thin walls that use guns that will shoot clean through the other end of the complex, inform your neighbors so they can move.

What round is it you think *won't* blast clean through interior walls? A pellet gun, perhaps. Or a downloaded .25 ACP? If it's powerful enough to kill a man, it's powerful enough to go through him and into something else. Or to blow through a whole house if you miss. If that's not something you can deal with, then don't have a firearm for defense.

And as for your 00 buck being "safe", think again:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO USE A FIREARM IN SELF DEFENSE! You are firing in an inhabited place, not at a range, and your backstop is at best uncertain. The whole point is, your life is on the line and you have no choice. If you succeed, a man is likely to die as a result. That's not "safe." But it is the criminal aggressor who created the danger, and he bears primary responsibility for any secondary injuries or deaths.

 

[Warhawk83]

What round is it you think *won't* blast clean through interior walls?

For the second or third? time,I don't live in an apartment.

If you're in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm then shoot, and shoot without hesitation. It's a time for action, not a time to be over-analyzing and introducing a bunch of remote possibilities and "what if's" that merely slow down your response and possibly lead to your death.

Frangible ammo,anyone? Doesn't completely take away the risk of going through a dividing wall and hitting an innocent but it does greatly reduce the possibility.

All of this can be taken care of WELL ahead of time, be responsible. I am NOT asking you to do calculations at the time of a home invasion. Plan AHEAD and act accordingly in the event of a break in.

I am not immune from not being able to shoot in my home in some instances because of the location of my kid's rooms.

You guys are trying to argue something that I'm not. Have your firearms but show some responsibility.

 

[mljdeckard]

I will never trust my life to frangible ammo. Any ammo you CAN trust your life to is pretty likely to easily go all the way through a human target. This is why we use it. There is no OVER penetration. There's just penetration.

There are two kinds of shots you can fire. Those that will miss the intended target and hit whatever is behind it, and those that HIT the intended target and hit whatever is behind it. No matter what magical round you can use that won't go through, you aren't going to hit with all of them.

Rule #4 ALWAYS applies. To hunters in the woods, to cops on the range, to homeowners in their houses, to soldiers on the battlefield. It is up to YOU to minimize the risk, and then accpt it. If this is too much of a concern for you to use effective ammunition, don't use a gun at all.

 

[Warhawk83]

Rule #4 ALWAYS applies. To hunters in the woods, to cops on the range, to homeowners in their houses, to soldiers on the battlefield. It is up to YOU to minimize the risk, and then accpt it. If this is too much of a concern for you to use effective ammunition, don't use a gun at all.

That is all I'm saying, be responsible.

If this is too much of a concern for you to use effective ammunition, don't use a gun at all.

If I lived in an apartment with paper thin walls and kids next door, I probably wouldn't.

YMMV.

 

[KodiakBeer]

And as for your 00 buck being "safe", think again:

I didn't say it was safe. I said it was a good compromise when viewed against other choices you might make - a slug for example, or a deer rifle. 00 buck weighs 50 grains. #4 buck weighs 20 grains. The rest are in between those extremes. That's not a lot of kinetic energy per pellet, especially after it's passed through a human torso then a couple of walls.

 

[Jumping Frog]

Jumping Frog and Kodiak Bear... you two are presenting conflicting data...

No, the 43% hit rate was only for those shootings that took place from 0-2 yards! I'd expect there to be a higher hit rate when closer than 6 feet!

The overall rate was 34% which was not that much different that his maximum rate of 30%.

 

[Kleanbore]

THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO USE A FIREARM IN SELF DEFENSE! You are firing in an inhabited place, not at a range, and your backstop is at best uncertain. The whole point is, your life is on the line and you have no choice.

True.

If you succeed, a man is likely to die as a result. That's not "safe." But it is the criminal aggressor who created the danger, and he bears primary responsibility for any secondary injuries or deaths.

Primary, maybe. Any murder charges will accrue to him. Civil claims will most likely not be limited to him. And depending upon whether you are perceived to have recklessly disregarded known risks (say, by firing nineteen unaimed shots in the direction of a crowd, or by shooting at a burglar in an apartment with a .460 WM rifle with "solids" when a shotgun is available), your troubles may not stop there...

Your comments, Cosmo?

 

[akadave]

Overpenetration is no theory. Its more like common sense. I have a co-worker that has rental property in my town that had a drive by done to her rental unit. It was only .22 but they found rounds in the opposite wall from the outside wall that the bullets hit. Had anyone been in the room and in the path of the bullet then you do the math.

Also, in a high stress situation in the dark, just roused from sleep, there will be errant shots I assure you. Those shots can easily exit your house and enter another depending on a host of factors.

The bottom line is that if its life or death...deal with the collateral after they take the dead guy out of your house.

 

[sonier]

I think im going to grab my 12 guage 2 3/4 shells 00buckshot and show you all what it will penetrate, I know 3 inch shells overpentrate, id never use a shotgun with buckshot in the house.

 

[sonier]

Alright i built a standard wall, 5/8 sheeting with 2x4 studs, I hanged a hog shoulder blade in front of the wall centered on the 2 x4 studs. Im using standard winchester 2 3/4 00 buckshot 12 guage. It had no problem penetrating the hog shoulder, it continued on ripped through the first 5/8 sheet of ply, hit a 2x4 nearly cut the 2x4 in half, it then exited the last 5/8s sheet and hit my backstop 5 yards behind and dug through the wood about 6 inches. If that was a self defense situation and your neighorbor is behind that wall hes not gona be doing so well.

 

[Fatelvis]

Mothermo, I tend to agree with you. I like carrying 45 ACP FMJ for SD. I like the idea of the bullet already being a decent diameter, and the tendency to penetrate is comforting to me. I dont worry about "all the planets aligning, just so, and an innocent gets hurt", I just want my bullet to get the boiler (and maybe I get lucky and get a pass through), of my enemy.

 

[3845]

I was at the scene of a shooting in which a person was shot twice in the torso with Federal Hydra shok .45 acp. Both rounds penetrated the body and went on down the street.
On another occasion I met a man who had been shot in the torso with a 146 grain mid range wadcutter .38 spl, fired at close range from a 6" K38. It, too, passed completely through the man's body, although without much effect.
In the case of two others, 12 ga. birdshot was fatal at room distance and closer. No penetration occurred.
It seems to make sense to me that a small hunk of lead and/or steel travelling fast enough that the eye can't see it will often times penetrate a bag of water and goop such as a human being. Fortunately, most of the time, when that happens, nothing important gets hit on the other side.
Shooting anywhere but on a safe range is just a risky enterprise. That said, I carry powerful hollowpoint ammo in my handguns, and load my shotgun with buckshot. In an apartment, I'd use birdshot in a 12 gauage, nothing smaller.

 

[KodiakBeer]

So, in 44 minutes you left the forum, built a wall then fired buck through a (10"? 12"?) hog shoulder (which would have dispersed the shot to some degree), the individual 50 grain pellets then continuing on through a 5/8 sheet, four inches of stud, another 5" sheet, then went another 5 yards to penetrate another 6 inches of wood for a total of 10"+ wood penetration, after passing through a hog shoulder. You then came back here and posted the results, all in 44 minutes?

 

[sonier]

yes kodiak it is nice to live full time on a farm, time i took to borrow skillsaw from my coup door project, and the extra sheet of ply and a few odd ball lengths of 2x4 rouch cut the sheet nail it on the studs, shoot a hog ham i had over dried and has been hanigng for 2 weeks, on the already existing 50 yard shooting range yes it took 44 minutes.

 

[Warhawk83]

Thanks for the demo Sonier, I may have to switch to #4 buck. I knew it was powerful but that is more than I was expecting. I have 3'' magnum 00 in my mossberg.

 

[sonier]

i have some pics but i need to upload them it was very crude set up you just need 2 sheets of ply any size with one square side and some 2x4s nail em together shoot a hog shoulder i happened to have and theres a test. i remember shoting on some public land when i was 15 16 or so, i shot a refrigerator that was dumped i used 00 buck it went through the metal and came out with no intention of stopping.
OH forgot to mention but the grouping from 7 yards with a 12 guage modified choke 28"" is about 2 inches wide, so kodiak beer unless im using a seriously short barrel and no choke your not going to get 00 BUCK 2 3/4 to spread at these distances.

 

[Warhawk83]

I'd love to see some pics. Heck, I might build my own test. Sounds like fun.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The Theory of Overpenetration

I never understand why folks will reclassify something documented to occur as a theory when it obviously isn't a theory.

I liked the challenge that set up some overly specific parameters...

CAN ANYONE PROVIDE DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF A SUSPECT GETTING HIT CENTER MASS, THE PROJECTILE PASSING THROUGH THE SUSPECT AND INJURING/KILLING AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER?!?!

First, we deal with a suspect because any ammo overpenetrating good guys doesn't count for some reason.

Second, the shot had to be center mass. Of course that is a real problem because not all shots are intended to be center mass.

Even when center mass, some of the people being targeted are considerably thinner than the average penetration of the rounds being fired. A teenage meth addict may only be 6-8" thick front to back center mass and the rounds shot at him may have anywhere from 10-18" of penetration potential.

Third, the overpenetrating shot has to have injured or killed an innocent bystander. So any shots overpenetrating and injuring or killing a second bad guy won't count (not innocent, not a bystander) or overpenetrating shots that hit a good guy combatant won't count (not a bystander).

In short, somehow the challenge is for laboratory controlled parameters of non-laboratory real world events. Shootings and gunfights rarely occur under such parameters.