When is deadly force justified during a home invasion?

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For the times when you or your gf are home and if it's not against the rules for your apartment I'd install one of these

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And within arms reach of the front door, one of these

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As well as something like this pointing towards the fence where they were jumping it. No sense in letting them use the cover of darkness to their advantage.

d4853fd7-9a63-493b-81a3-18acd5733530_300.jpg
 
Check your local laws, however, the 3 biggies to consider when using deadly force are 1.) Intent, 2.) Ability, 3.) Immediacy.

Intent = criminal displayed actions that would make a reasonable person believe they were in risk of great bodily harm or death.

Ability = criminal displayed the ability to perform the act that would make a reasonable person believe they were in risk of great bodily harm or death. This includes a physical advantage, numerical advantage, or the use of items as a deadly weapon.

Immediacy = lawful deadly force was needed at the time it was used to prevent the immediate threat of unlawful deadly force.

If your state has "castle" doctrine laws, than criminal "intent" to cause great bodily harm or death may be assumed, by law, during the conduct of certain criminal acts, home invasion being one of them.

You've got to know your laws. Some jurisdictions seem to give every benefit of the doubt to the criminal and NOT the citizen. Unless the citizen can prove intent, ability, and immediacy, the prosecution will try to hammer the citizen for unlawful use of deadly force because the citizen "could have retreated" or because the citizen "was not in danger during the time he used deadly force" etc...

By knowing your local laws, and being able to recognize intent, ability, and immediacy, you will be better prepared to legally apply deadly force in defense of you and yours, and you will be better prepared to justify your actions in a court of law.
 
Check your local laws, however, the 3 biggies to consider when using deadly force are 1.) Intent, 2.) Ability, 3.) Immediacy.

Intent = criminal displayed actions that would make a reasonable person believe they were in risk of great bodily harm or death.

Ability = criminal displayed the ability to perform the act that would make a reasonable person believe they were in risk of great bodily harm or death. This includes a physical advantage, numerical advantage, or the use of items as a deadly weapon.

Immediacy = lawful deadly force was needed at the time it was used to prevent the immediate threat of unlawful deadly force.

If your state has "castle" doctrine laws, than criminal "intent" to cause great bodily harm or death may be assumed, by law, during the conduct of certain criminal acts, home invasion being one of them.

You've got to know your laws. Some jurisdictions seem to give every benefit of the doubt to the criminal and NOT the citizen. Unless the citizen can prove intent, ability, and immediacy, the prosecution will try to hammer the citizen for unlawful use of deadly force because the citizen "could have retreated" or because the citizen "was not in danger during the time he used deadly force" etc...

By knowing your local laws, and being able to recognize intent, ability, and immediacy, you will be better prepared to legally apply deadly force in defense of you and yours, and you will be better prepared to justify your actions in a court of law.

Yes, this. If you can afford it, I would strongly suggest getting some training, more for the legal aspects than for the firearms part. Training by someone who knows this stuff and teaches it on a regular basis is well worth it. I recommend the NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home (and Outside the Home, too) classes include a legal module taught by a credentialed law-enforcement officer or an attorney licensed in your state. Those people will give you the facts based on what the law is where you are. There is other quality training out there too, I just mention the NRA stuff first because it is more likely to be accessible to you almost no matter where in the U.S. you are.
 
coloradokevin brings up a good point about morality/the psychological impact of killing someone.

HappyHunting is a college student living in student housing. Based on that, he's probably living alone (no kids/spouse).

So, HappyHunting: get renter's insurance. If the bad guys come when you're gone, they'll take your stuff but you'll get it back. If they come when you are home, grab the gun, retreat to the bathroom, lock the door, and wait it out. They'll take your stuff, sure, but that's not a big deal--the insurance will get it back. And you won't have to deal with the consequences of taking a life.

Of course, if they attack you, shoot them dead.
 
Seattle, the reason that Castle Doctrine allows for a different level of proof for deadly force, is that when there is someone in your home who isn't supposed to be there, you cannot assume that all he wants is just stuff.

I cannot speak for the state the OP is in. In MY state, if someone enters your home, either by violence or by stealth, with the intent to commit a felony, deadly force is justified.
 
Here in CO, deadly force is justified as soon as they stick their head through the door/window/etc.
 
Here in CO, deadly force is justified as soon as they stick their head through the door/window/etc.
So say the antigunners and some of the media. Not so.

Also required: Reasonable belief that the other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and a reasonable belief that the person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.

An unlawful entry into the dwelling, means a knowing, criminal entry. People v. McNeese, 892 P.2d 304 (Colo. 1995).

To be immune from prosecution under this section a defendant must establish by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she had a reasonable belief that the intruder was committing or intended to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry.

http://www.coloradomakemyday.org/

However, the OP resides in Alabama. The law is different there. Relevant sections:

A person may use deadly physical force, and is legally presumed to be justified in using deadly physical force in self-defense or the defense of another person pursuant to subdivision (4), if the person reasonably believes that another person is:

(2) Using or about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling while committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling.

(4) In the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or federally licensed nuclear power facility, or is in the process of sabotaging or attempting to sabotage a federally licensed nuclear power facility, or is attempting to remove, or has forcefully removed, a person against his or her will from any dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle when the person has a legal right to be there, and provided that the person using the deadly physical force knows or has reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act is occurring.


http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/13A-3-23.htm
 
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The law is encoding this "crazy" idea that human life is more valuable than inanimate objects.
Yeah, because perps often think that YOUR life is more important than your inanimate objects. :rolleyes:
 
leep with your Commander cocked and locked under your pillow with a spare mag. Seriously, that's the only reasonable place to keep such a nice pistol handy

WORST advice I have ever read on any forum - way too many bad things that can happen

You also need to consider what the college allows as far as guns on campus - many do not.

Here in FL deadly force, aka Castle Doctrine, also applies to our vehicles and boats we're in, (and campers/motor homes, etc.)

A barking dog of ANY size does work. For others in your home who may not be gun-trained -pepper spray, baseball bat or similar will also work
 
Massad Ayoob's classic book: In The Gravest Extreme.

I hear this recommendation a lot, but wonder if it isn't a little dated, given that many states have adopted the castle doctrine, or some variation there of. If I understand correctly, back in the days when Maas was a police officer in Massachusetts, they still had a duty to retreat codified.

I have not read the book. It is not my intention to criticize the author. I'd simply like to hear the perspective of any one out there who has read it and is familiar with castle doctrine state laws.

Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Meh. I'm not going to kill someone over stuff. Stuff can be replaced. Easily replaced. Becoming a killer is a one-way trip.

They might steal your stuff and decide to kill you (and your family) anyway. Anybody brazen enough to break into my house, while I'm there, had better be prepared for a gunfight. Since I'm already a "killer" (I once upon a time
got paid $96 a month to shoot at little yellow men), dispatching a home
invader or two wouldn't cause any loss of sleep.

Fortunately, I live in Alabama and deadly force can be used to protect property as well as life. :evil:
 
SSN Vet said
Quote:
Massad Ayoob's classic book: In The Gravest Extreme.
I hear this recommendation a lot, but wonder if it isn't a little dated, given that many states have adopted the castle doctrine, or some variation there of. If I understand correctly, back in the days when Maas was a police officer in Massachusetts, they still had a duty to retreat codified.

I have not read the book. It is not my intention to criticize the author. I'd simply like to hear the perspective of any one out there who has read it and is familiar with castle doctrine state laws.

Inquiring minds want to know.

I refer people to the Ayoob book (Combat Handgunnery) for the technical and shooting skills tips, not the legal stuff (although it just barely touches on it). I've read Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme for the legal/non-technical aspects of self-defense. Written in I think ca 1980 you're right, it's dated, but I think still relevant. I don't recall the duty-to-retreat being discussed much or even at all, but the book had lots of other really good info on mindset, preparation, etc. I checked it out of the library instead of buying it, and while I doubt I'd buy it at this point, I may check it out again in order to skim through it once more. I think it's worth reading, even at 30 years or so old.
 
trex1310 said:
Fortunately, I live in Alabama and deadly force can be used to protect property as well as life.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. My understanding is that you can use deadly force against arson. And that the castle doctrine supports the use of deadly force of your premises (home, vehicle, business) when necessary.

But I don't think you can extend that to saying that deadly force can be used to defend all types of property in the state of AL.

http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm

Section 13A-3-26

Use of force in defense of property other than premises.

A person is justified in using physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission by the other person of theft or criminal mischief with respect to property other than premises as defined in section 13A-3-20.

(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §625.)
 
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Home invasion? My doors and windows are locked. IF a person kicks in a door or breaks a window...thats when I start defending my life...my wife...and everything inside the four walls. Thats why the locks are set.

Mark
 
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. My understanding is that you can use deadly force against arson. And that the castle doctrine supports the use of deadly force of your premises (home, vehicle, business) when necessary.

autospike:
That's what I was trying to say. Your property on your premises.
 
Posted by trex1310: That's what I was trying to say. Your property on your premises.
Still not clear what you are trying to say but it appears imprecise of not incorrect. Here's the code:

Section 13A-3-25 — Use of force in defense of premises.
Alabama Code


(a) A person in lawful possession or control of premises, as defined in Section 13A-3-20, or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, may use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon such premises.

(b) A person may use deadly physical force under the circumstances set forth in subsection (a) of this section only:

(1) In defense of a person, as provided in Section 13A-3-23; or

(2) When he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent the commission of arson in the first or second degree by the trespasser.

(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §620.)
http://law.justia.com/alabama/codes/13297/13a-3-25.html
 
From Post #19:

http://www.wtvy.com/home/headlines/2915836.html

Posted: 6:13 PM Jun 1, 2006
Local Reaction to New Self-defense Law in Alabama

A new Alabama law went into effect today, giving citizen’s greater legal safeguard if they choose to protect themselves rather than flee an intruder.////snip

============

The reason I HATE to see reams of blackletter law quoted endlessly in this forum is that it's too easy to screw up interpreting what the law says when you don't have ALL the law available. Either updated current statute law (legislators are ALWAYS changing things) in the first place, or the modifications of statute law imposed by case law.

PLEASE stop quoting statute law here!

lpl (I'm gonna start taking it personally...)
 
The reason I HATE to see reams of blackletter law quoted endlessly in this forum is that it's too easy to screw up interpreting what the law says when you don't have ALL the law available. Either updated current statute law (legislators are ALWAYS changing things) in the first place, or the modifications of statute law imposed by case law.

Agree, completely, as always. Pasting the statute is probably not an effective way to communicate.

However, I will opine that when the statute says that something is prohibited, one can bet that said something is prohibited, and though there may be some chance of a successful defense of justification, I wouldn't bet on it.

When people make statements that certain actions that are clearly proscribed in most jurisdictions and in the common law are OK (e. g., "we can use deadly force to defend property where I live", they are most often completely wrong (Texas excepted under some circumstances), according to both blackletter and appellate law. They may do the wrong thing. Far worse, others may believe them.

Just surmising from similar posts in the past--perhaps some people read that force is justified in some situations and stop reading before they come to the part about deadly force. Also, one must distinguish between stopping a robbery or a burglary and protecting property--those are forcible felonies usually covered under the law on the use of force in defense of persons.
 
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I SAY AGAIN:

There is NO SUBSTITUTE for developing an operating knowledge of the laws applicable to self defense and defense of others in your own jurisdiction or in any jurisdiction in which you legally carry a firearm. That means ALL the law, both statute book law and case law (precedent, appellate, etc).

The time to get yourself squared away on what the laws of self defense say is BEFORE you find yourself in the courtroom- not after. Sitting in court as a defendant is a horribly expensive way to find out what you can and cannot legally do in your jurisdiction. And there have been members of this very forum who have found that out the hard way already. Do not join their number.

The place to get your legal information is at the hands of someone who practices that law every day- NOT on the Internet.

lpl
 
In South Carolina .... if you are in the dwelling ... as soon as they come through the door (or window, whatever). Out "castle law" makes the presumption that anyone that forces their way into your home while you are there does so with the intend to do you grievous bodily harm.
 
Posted by Lee Lapin: There is NO SUBSTITUTE for developing an operating knowledge of the laws applicable to self defense and defense of others in your own jurisdiction or in any jurisdiction in which you legally carry a firearm.
That is very true indeed.

That means ALL the law, both statute book law and case law (precedent, appellate, etc).
And so is that.

To illustrate that point by way of example for those who may not fully understand it, there is nothing in the statute where I live that specifies a duty to retreat if you are not in your domicile or automobile. That duty does exist, however. The requirement traces back to the common law, as embodied in legal precedent ("case law"). It is taught in the state CCW class, but you won't find it in the criminal code.

The place to get your legal information is at the hands of someone who practices that law every day- NOT on the Internet.
No one can argue with that.

However, it may not be practical for everyone to consult with someone who practices "that" law every day. I've been interviewing criminal lawyers in a large metro area, and those with any real familiarity with self defense law practice are proving hard to find.

Some people do have that option. There are some stop-gap resources, not as good but better than nothing; books and authoritative papers on the internet are available, but they are usually not jurisdiction specific, and jurisdictional difference may prove to mean everything. Florida and Arizona have some excellent 'papers' on the web.

In the Arizona paper, the author, attorney Michael Anthony, makes the same point that Lee has been repeating here--do not rely on a lay interpretation of a statute.

I will offer one lay observation, based on experience working in another field of legal compliance: if a statute says that something is unlawful, it most probably is, though that might change much later if someone really wants to test it (happened today in SCOTUS, as a matter of fact); the converse is not necessarily true, however--one cannot safely assume that something is lawful because the specific prohibition does not pop up where you look for it.

One other observation, also based on experience: people who have tried to rationalize that doing something would be OK by carefully analyzing the black law in excruciating detail using dictionary definitions have often been tripped up by things they did not understand and or things about which they had been unaware. Legal precedent, common law, other relevant laws....

So, what to do? (1) get the best legal advice you can, as Lee has said; and (2) (this is my personal opinion) don't get to close to the yellow line if you can help it--play it safe and you are less likely to get hit by oncoming traffic.

Translating the latter to utmost simplicity--if you have to shoot to save yourself and family, do so, but if you can possibly avoid it, avoid it.
 
This is one of the biggest minefields you can step into. All I can say is learn the law first, then your game plan. Lots of good info in this thread but it won't mean squat if your sitting in jail. I would make sure your state doesn't have the "duty to retreat" law, if it does you would need to articulate how you were unable to reasonably escape with out risking harm to yourself or the need to protect other family members. I live in Vermont and it is considered an "act of violence" to break into an occupied dwelling and deadly force is not a question.
I'm lucky, I live in an rural area so a flashlight, a firearm in every adults room and a large dog for an early warning system is the norm. ( meth heads from the city are starting to do home invasion in the rural community now) Note: handheld air horns are a good attention grabber in a small apartment in the middle of the night if you don't want the responsibility of having an firearm.
 
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