when you carry a hammer...

[ACP]

everything looks like a nail??

yet another senseless Florida shooting:
--------------------


Jacksonville, Fla. - Police say a 45-year-old man was taken into custody Saturday for fatally shooting a Florida teenager last week at a Jacksonville gas station after an argument that began over loud music.

Michael Dunn made his first court appearance Monday in Brevard County where he pleaded not guilty to murder in the death of 17-year-old Jordan Davis, CBS affiliate WTEV reports.

At a press conference Monday, Lt. Rob Schoonover of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office said the deadly incident occurred around 7:40 p.m. Friday.

Schoonover said Davis was sitting in a parked SUV with three other teens, when Dunn parked next to their vehicle and made a comment about the loud music the group was playing. The 45-year-old apparently got into an argument with Davis, who was sitting in the back seat. During the altercation, Dunn allegedly took out a gun and shot into the vehicle, striking Davis twice. Schoonover says the vehicle had been shot 8 or 9 times in total, but no one else was injured.

Dunn and his girlfriend, who was inside the gas station during the shooting, drove away from the scene, police said.

Investigators are still trying to find out why the argument escalated into violence.

"It was loud," Schoonover said about the teens' music. "They admitted that. But I mean that's not a reason for someone to open fire on them and take action."

Dunn claims he fired his weapon because he felt threatened, police say.

Schoonover said Dunn had apparently been driving to a hotel from his son's wedding when he stopped at the gas station.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been tempted to shoot the engine blocks of a few incredibly noisy cars and motorcycles over the years, but not the people.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Do we actually know what happened?

1: Dunn makes comment about loud music
2: _________
3: Shooting takes place

It's hard to make a judgement without knowing what happened in between.



Is it prudent to make comments about loud music to strangers while at a gas station, especially when you'll just be driving away in a few minutes anyways? Of course not. But that doesn't really have much to do with the shooting. We don't actually know if Dunn shot because of the music, or if the teens jumped out and started threatening him, pushing him around, displayed weapons, etc.
We don't know. And how senseless the shooting was depends greatly on all of that.

 

[MedWheeler]

As presented here, this is nothing more than a "shooting story" in the news. There is not nearly enough information to make it relevant to the board subject, especially to "Strategies, Tactics, and Training."

 

[Averageman]

He confronted the driver about the music and it escalated from there.
Dunn as I understand it swears that there was a pistol in the car and it was pointed at him. Dunn was there to attend a Wedding.
I saw this on the news this morning and was sickened by it. I'm not sure what people are thinking, but between this guy and the fellow in Min. who executed two teenage burglars; it doesn't make gunowners look very good.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I think this does pertain to strategies and tactics. It demonstrates that avoiding confrontation, even verbal confrontation, is almost always advisable. Even if the shooting ends up being justified, for instance if there was indeed a pistol in the car, it's still something that probably could have been avoided by just not saying anything.

The shooting itself could very well be justified. If the kids in the car did have a weapon and displayed it too Dunn, that would go a long way in proving he did the right thing by shooting. But it doesn't change the fact that the entire situation could probably have been avoided the first place. It's not our place to go around critiquing other people for their personal choices, such as the type and volume of music they're listening to a public place. Weapon or no weapon, that's just not necessary. And it isn't even our right to do so. A gas station is still a semi public place. The only person who even comes close to having a right to tell someone to turn the music down would be the gas station owner. Personal preferences are not enforceable on other people, even verbally.

Though I do think the thread title is misleading. The "if all you have is a hammer, than everything looks like a nail" quip pertains to using the wrong tool for a job because that's all you have. We don't know if that's the case here. If the teens in the car threatened Dunn with a weapon, his pistol may very have been the right tool.

 

[Arp32]

The article I saw on this earlier today was titled "Gun enthusiast shoots man over loud music" or something similar.

This story and the one from earlier this week with the "finishing shot" are so seemingly pointless, it's almost insulting to even look at them at teachable moments (or whatever the cliche is...).

It's almost like hearing about a drunk who died while riding a stolen motorcycle backwards and naked going the wrong way through a tunnel with no headlights on and then having your dad sit down with you to discuss being responsible now that you have your drivers license all because he read about that idiot on the news. It's just hard to relate to people who have such horrible judgement.

 

[Apachedriver]

Sometimes I think what draws good people into taking the actions they do, and hitting a breaking point, is that they keep playing nice and avoiding meanwhile the POS's out there keep pushing and pushing.

I can see RD's point. It's not our right to impress upon others what we may think is proper. You should be able to speak in a civil manner to others and arrive at an understanding. But due to the unforeseen ugliness that it could escalate to nowadays, you can't even get that far. In turn, that means yielding your rights in order to accomplish that avoidance. Some folks genuinely have an issue with that line of thought, others I think just pop from yielding too much.

And no, I'm not excusing the maniac in MN with this...that appears to be a whole different animal there.

 

[ACP]

At what point do you think you have to "see" a handgun barrel, or "believe" some teens are about to exit a car, to use deadly force?

I wonder if the gun owner was carrying a folding knife, or pepper spray, if he would have reacted by using force, or would have used another strategy -- i.e., breaking off the conversation, getting in his vehicle, and driving away.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

What does "see" mean?

 

[bikerdoc]

Ragner, said

It demonstrates that avoiding confrontation, even verbal confrontation, is almost always advisable.

The word avoid is key here.

Although I think the only value of this thread is that it is an example of what not to do.
The opposite of knowing what not to do leads to knowing what to do.

One of the elements in a successful defense is The concept of "unprovoked by you"

Go about your business, keep your mouth shut, avoid confrontation, and leave if you have to.

 

[Fotno]

As has already been mentioned, the story so far makes me think it was an entirely avoidable situation. It's hard to talk firearm strategy when the only responsible option was to shut up and leave.

 

[mbt2001]

Do we actually know what happened?

1: Dunn makes comment about loud music
2: _________
3: Shooting takes place

It's hard to make a judgement without knowing what happened in between.

Agreed...

 

[Godsgunman]

I absolutely hate hearing about stuff like this. Obviously we don't know about every minute little detail of what happened but it should have never even gotten to that point. A life is lost over music loudness? Really? The guy was at a gas station, either stay in the car or go inside the gas station if you don't want to listen to it. You are there for 5 minutes tops, why even confront the kids they aren't posing any threat to anyone, except maybe to their own ear drums. If anything you can tell the gas station manager that they are being a nuisance and he or the cops can ask them to leave. I am all for the right to protect ones self against deadly threats but its people like this moron that just make me cringe. He was the instigator of the whole incident so, come what may, he will have to face the consequences of his actions. I personally can't see myself supporting such a man.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I saw Dunn's attorney interviewed on the news last night - she said that there was critical information which had not fully been taken into account in this case.

As with most news stories, there are holes big enough for a locomotive to pass through. There's a lot we don't know that's left out in this story, and there is, to put it mildly, a degree of sensationalism in the coverage so far as well.

Let's please stay focused on ST&T lessons here, despite the lack of actionable information provided by the media so far...

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I gotta say I might disagree with Godsgunman. This could be a prime example of there being a reasonable disconnect between to connected but still separate events.

Possiblity:
Dunn makes comment about music --> Teens respond by pulling out a gun and threatening Dunn

Teens have pulled out a gun and threatened Dunn --> Dunn defends himself by using lethal force.

In the first series, Dunn is wrong to have made the comments, but the teens are even more wrong to threaten him with a gun. In the following series, the teens are wrong to have threatened with the gun, but Dunn is RIGHT to have defended himself. Even if Dunn was initially wrong to make comments and stupidly put himself in a bad situation, that does NOT give anyone the right to threaten his life. If they do so, Dunn is still in the right to defend himself.

Now all of this is contingent upon Dunn's claim that he was threatened with a weapon. If that's not what happened, everything I just said goes out the window. I just wanted to illustrate that sometimes one can be wrong in the beginning with one particular action, but still be right with another action depending on what others do.

 

[Godsgunman]

Ragnar,
I do agree with what you said and as we both stated, all the information is not out yet so we don't know if the teenagers had a weapon or not. My whole point in what I was saying is to avoid such situations in the first place. So what if someone is playing loud music at a gas station? I've had that happen many times, ignore it, get what you need and leave. There is no reason for any confrontation like that. Plus the word "loud" is subjective whats loud to me may not be loud to you. Whats loud and disruptive to you may not be loud and disruptive to the law. When people confront people about stupid trivial things, stupid things happen. All could have been avoided with one simple action, now one person is dead, one families lives will be changed for ever, and a bad light is once again cast on responsible lawful gunowners.

 

[mr.scott]

As I said in the other thread, stop bending over for others. Some one said it's a public place and he shouldn't be able to impose his belief that the music was loud. What takes that ability away from him but lets the other people play music that is disturbing the peace?
No one will say it, but we know they weren't blasting Beethoven or Bach, it was thug rap and we all know the lyrics in that music is not appropriate for subjecting others to.
He had every right to approach them and tell them to turn it down.

 

[Godsgunman]

Wow mr scott,
As nicely as I can say this, your comment is probably one of the most ignorant and assuming comments I've seen in awhile. There was no mention of what type of music they were listening to, it could have been rock, rap, country, alternative, does it really matter anyways? I like my music loud and I personally hate rap oh and I DO play classical music loud also. Its a public place, people can listen to what they want to. The main issue here is why start the confrontation in the first place? You never know how people will react. Go about your business and be on your way. As the Bible says to live as peaceably amoung men as possible. If you are ever forced into a situation where you must defend your life then you by all means have that right. Dunn voluntarily opened that door by starting a confrontation which could have been easily avoidable.

 

[JohnKSa]

when you carry a hammer...

everything looks like a nail??

No. When you create confrontations where none need to exist, eventually you will engineer a situation where things go bad in a big way.

Teens respond by pulling out a gun and threatening Dunn

Dunn may have thought they had a gun, but they didn't. The police found no guns at the scene besides Dunn's.

Mr. Dunn confronted the teens. At that point one of two things happened.

Possibility 1.) Dunn lost control/snapped when things didn't go his way and shot the unarmed teens.

OR

Possibility 2.) Dunn got in over his depth and became genuinely frightened for one reason or another and shot the unarmed teens.

 

[bobbo]

What should have happened...

1) Dunn hears loud music.
2) Dunn rolls eyes, finishes gassing up car and drives home. Heck, as I'm not the Thought Police, he can even think a racist thought or two (I don't approve, but hey, it's his brain and not mine).

I hear plenty of people cranking out the country music in my town. I, you guessed it, roll my eyes and go on my merry way. I'm not their mother, and it's not my job to teach them their manners.

You want to carry a firearm in public? Put the temper in check, or very soon you won't have that right. We need to hold ourselves to a higher moral standard if we want to keep the rights (not just individually, but as a whole). All these "tough guys" do is make it more difficult for everyone else. I hope this guy goes to jail for a long, long time and gets his pants sued off.

 

[Guillermo]

when I carry a hammer only nails look like nails and I have no desire to strike them unless there is a reason.

As mentioned, we have no idea what happened.

But I have no problem telling some inconsiderate scum to be more considerate.

If they escalate, it is not my fault.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Guillermo: But I have no problem telling some inconsiderate scum to be more considerate.

If they escalate, it is not my fault.

But you will put yourself into very hot water, and unless the evidence, including witness testimony, supports your account you will remain there.

 

[Guillermo]

you will put yourself into very hot water, and unless the evidence, including witness testimony, supports your account you will remain there.

perhaps

but it seems silly to suggest that demanding civilized behavior from jerks is a bad thing because you can protect yourself.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

It's not your right to demand anything from another citizen in public. If what they're doing is legal, they're free to do it. How their actions conflict with your emotions is entirely irrelevant.