when you carry a hammer...

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Posted by Guillermo: Sadly many operate only within the confines of their own best interest.

Such perpetuates and even encourages unacceptable behavior.

It also suggests that preparing for trouble makes one more vulnerable if something bad happens which is counter-intuitive.
I'm afraid we disagree.

I agree that playing loud music in a car anywhere is inconsiderate and is offensive to me, but not getting into an argument with people over it does not constitute acting only in my own self interest. Nor will it perpetuate or encourage the playing of loud music, either.
 
Nor will it perpetuate or encourage the playing of loud music, either.

Kleanbore,

Yes, it is obvious that we disagree and it is likely that such will always be the case on this. I will offer you this. Think about raising dogs or kids.

Letting your dog bark encourages him to bark.
Not objecting to your child not picking up their dinner dishes encourages them to do so.

Not objecting to bad behavior is acceptance.

I hope you have a nice day

G
 
Posted by Guillermo: Letting your dog bark encourages him to bark.
Not objecting to your child not picking up their dinner dishes encourages them to do so.
So, how do you conclude from that that objecting to the playing of loud music by one group of people on one occasion at one service station would discourage that group from doing so in the future? Other groups? Do you think you could do it often enough to make a difference in your city?

I contend that trying would be futile.

It is probable that many of them like the idea of annoying people, and that showing annoyance will simply encourage them to do it more.
 
there was a phenomenon observed in the 70's and early 80's when cops first started wearing vests. cops with vests were getting shot more than those without em. having the vest diminished caution in some cases . i have seen a similar effect with some gun owners.
it seems amplified by testosterone and alcohol.
i am an adherent to that school that holds that one should be polite , and even more so with a weapon in possession.
for my sake not theres
 
It's not your right to demand anything from another citizen in public. If what they're doing is legal, they're free to do it. How their actions conflict with your emotions is entirely irrelevant.

+1 Concise and well said.
 
Concise and well said.

and totally ignores the point as well as the right to self expression

I have the right to talk to whoever I want (for now...a Democratic Congressman is trying to abridge the right to free speech)
 
"Right to talk to..." is not at all the same thing as "right to demand from...", and it's a bit disturbing to have to point out such an obvious difference.
 
From a 'strategies and tactics" scenario I thought there might be two other issues at play here:

1) Dunn was from out of town. I know different regions of the country have different ways of dealing with strangers in social situations. Was that a factor? If he was from... say, a small town i Minnesota, and he rarely saw such loud displays of bad behavior, would it be reasonable to assume that he approached these teens with the expectation that they would politely heed his request?

2. His "girlfriend" was present. She was in the store at the time of the shooting, but presumably heard the loud music either from the store or when she got out to walk inside. Maybe she even compained about it to Dunn. He, being a man, decided to act the role for his ladyfriend so as not to seem "unmanly" in front of her and in front of younger males. Sounds like testosterone could have played a role here on both parts.

It's a sad story all around; somebody died, perhaps needlessly. Somebody left the scene of a public shooting for many hours and is now facing charges, perhaps needlessly (if I was in a car with a shotgun and one of my buddies got killed I would permanently lose that shotgun ASAP. We'll see.)

I've been carrying daily for almost 20 years and have learned that I have to put up with more stupidity than I would like to simply because I am legally armed with a deadly weapon. It's a tradeoff I am willing to make.
 
several people have weighed in and said, basically "if it is legal it ain't my business".

one even tried to get into a discussion about what is right and what is wrong.

So to those "I mind my own business" folks I ask...you are at a gas station and you see some young men yelling at an old lady. Calling her stupid and fat. How she should crawl back to her old folks home.

Nothing illegal has transpired. They are not threatening her.

You men will stand on the side and do nothing?
You will debate as to whether yelling at an old lady is really wrong? (do you have the right to make that call?)

Tell me...do you drive away and think "I am armed so I can't chance an altercation?"
 
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A group of young men verbally abusing an elderly woman in public is not the same thing as someone playing loud music or cutting in line.

I don't believe you are in the least confused about the difference between the level of offense involved in a gang harassing a defenseless person and loud music any more than you didn't understand the difference between the right to talk to someone and the right to demand something from them.

I think it's clear that you don't like the idea of not being the police in your small corner of the world and are casting about for any means to rationalize the actions you have already decided you are going to take regardless of the prudence of said actions.
 
A group of young men verbally abusing an elderly woman in public is not the same thing as someone playing loud music or cutting in line.

I did not say it was the same.

It was a stand alone question.

You see, any stance is tested by putting it to multiple tests.

These guys were saying "if it is legal...it ain't my business" and one even questioned right and wrong.

I am checking them for consistency
 
Cutting in line, speaking offensively and playing music loud (the general types of offenses under discussion) are all offenses without a specific target. That is, until someone makes it about them and the offender, there's no confrontation.

If a person, or group of persons singles out a target for their attentions, a confrontation is already created, and while, by the letter of the law, it takes more than words to rise to the level of an assault, a group harrassing a defenseless person is, at best, within a hair of breaking the law, and could go over that line at any time by doing something as simple as shaking a fist or even just making a sudden move toward the target of the harrassment.

In other words, while you deserve kudos for dreaming up a hypothetical that's so creative, it's not at all in the same vein as the focus of this thread has been up until this point.

That said, even in the unlikely event that this hypothetical group of young men were so circumspect and well-informed as to stay strictly on the legal side of the law; I think it would be more than reasonable to summon the authorities to the scene and, until their arrival, keep an eye on things to make sure that they don't get out of hand.

If the target of the harrassment reasonably appeared to be in real danger and the authorities were still not on the scene, then there would be another decision to make, namely, am I willing to risk my well-being for the benefit of the defenseless target? However, at that point, we've clearly crossed the line from legal to illegal behavior.
 
As one that has spent time with teenagers (high school coach) I can tell you that it is not an unlikely scenario that a weaker person could be targeted for verbal harassment.

Being different is enough.

But again...the point is not the realism of the scenario. It is merely a test. After all, if you said "magnets stick to metal" it is reasonable to not just check your theory against the piece of iron that you brought.

All that said...I thank you for answering.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

You would call the cops and stay on site so as to make sure that the miscreants do not waver into lawlessness. Correct?
 
...you are at a gas station and you see some young men yelling at an old lady. Calling her stupid and fat. How she should crawl back to her old folks home.

Nothing illegal has transpired. They are not threatening her.

I would argue that (depending on where it's happening) what is transpiring in your scenario may well BE illegal. Harassment and/or verbal assault is considered criminal in many jurisdictions. Regardless, ultimately the decision about whether or not it's a crime belongs to local law enforcement, not citizens.

Call the cops.
 
You would call the cops and stay on site so as to make sure that the miscreants do not waver into lawlessness. Correct?
What's unclear about my statement?

...I think it would be more than reasonable to summon the authorities to the scene and, until their arrival, keep an eye on things to make sure that they don't get out of hand.

If the target of the harrassment reasonably appeared to be in real danger and the authorities were still not on the scene, then there would be another decision to make, namely, am I willing to risk my well-being for the benefit of the defenseless target? However, at that point, we've clearly crossed the line from legal to illegal behavior.​
 
I was just being clear...you stand on the side while the old lady is taunted and do not step between the jerks and the weak.

Gotcha.

Thank you for answering.
 
Fotno apparently agrees with you.

My concealed carry license is not a badge, nor carte blanche to enforce the law. It's permission for me to legally carry a concealed firearm to protect myself from deadly violence; nothing more. I'm a nearly fifty year old Multiple Sclerosis patient, and it's been a long time since my best days. I'm no more of a match for these hypothetical thugs than the hypothetical old lady they're abusing. The difference between me and a lot of other people, is I KNOW I won't win in a fight, so I don't go picking them.

P.S. I know you think you're on the side of the angels here, but I can promise you this. If you live your life correcting other people's rotten children out on the street like you're suggesting in this thread, sooner or later you'll pay a high price for it. You may be willing to pay that price, but what about your family? How will they feel when the family's finances are ruined, or dad's in a coma, on a respirator, or in prison? Will they feel it's been worth it?
 
I was just being clear...you stand on the side while the old lady is taunted and do not step between the jerks and the weak.

Gotcha.

Thank you for answering.
------------------
Fotno apparently agrees with you.

Stay out of it.

Not your business.

They broke no laws.
So that's your takeaway from 4 pages of discussion. That's very disappointing, but, based on many of your earlier responses, not surprising.
 
How will they feel when the family's finances are ruined, or dad's in a coma, on a respirator, or in prison? Will they feel it's been worth it?

I certainly hope so.

It is my hope that they all believe that dying with honor is better than living without it.
Plus, we all have made personal commitments to help the weak. (Example: all are RAD System instructors)

While it is difficult to anticipate human responses, I believe that they would all be supportive were I injured or killed under such circumstances.

As to the financial issues, I am heavily insured including Texas Law Shield. But again...I believe that doing the right thing is of paramount importance. And there is no way that I am going to stand on the side while some jerks harass an old lady.
 
So that's your takeaway from 4 pages of discussion

Gee, I even clarified and you were terse that I did so.

Remember
You would call the cops and stay on site so as to make sure that the miscreants do not waver into lawlessness. Correct?

What's unclear about my statement?

If I am not correct...please correct instead of an ad hominem attack.
 
You've got an impressive blind side, my friend if you think that my disappointment at what you've learned from this thread is an ad hominem attack but you feel just fine implying that everyone who disagrees with you is:
  • "living without honor"
  • unwilling "to help the weak"
  • not "doing the right thing"
  • going to "to stand on the side while some jerks harass an old lady"
From your posts, it's clear that you think you made some telling point, but if you think about it for awhile you'll realize that what's really telling is that in order to have even a chance at justifying what you claimed was a reasonable response to loud music at a gas station (a minor/temporary irritation to all in the general area), you felt you needed to twist to topic around to defending an old woman from a gang (verbal abuse focused on a single individual by multiple individuals with the potential for a many on one physical attack).
 
you felt you needed to twist to topic around to defending an old woman from a gang

So did you not remember reading post 84 or 86?

I twisted nothing.

I asked a new question that had nothing to do with music or the OP.

You answered it...remember?


The reason for the new scenario was even explained using a magnet analogy.



But you are obviously upset and that is not my intention.
 
Agree lethal force is a mistake over a verbal altercation.

However, it is a sad commentary on our world that folks are so inconsiderate as to play loud music and invade the peace of others - we as a society have lost our way and others who might 'peer pressure' them into conforming to societal norms of peace and harmony are the 'bad guys' for asking someone to turn down their music.

I lived in a neighborhood that was once a white blue collar hard working neighborhood but was being 'taken over' by loud, inconsiderate minorities. I daily witnessed 'thugs' on the streets, inexpensive cars with pricey rims, stereos blaring, kids with droopy pants and bandanas around their heads. Once my girlfriend came over and got cat calls by these 3 hoodlums. I went over to talk to them and the radio was so loud I asked them to turn it down. One of the jerks pulled a knife on me. I moved out of the neighborhood that week.

Society is totaly inconsiderate to fellow man.
 
Wandering. And we seem to be arguing the same things in multiple threads.

And, further, there is a message in the old adage about "sticks and stones ..." which might be worth pondering.
 
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