Where do I measure up?

[Tallball]

If you get just a little bit better with each practice session, you'll be pretty good after a while.

 

[DMW1116]

I would like to get a feel for how I'm shooting. I don't shoot competitively, just against myself, always trying to improve. I'm retired and go to the range on weekdays, so about 90% of the time I'm at my outdoor club range and no one else is there.

I'm standing, shooting unsupported with a Canik Rival which is 9mm. Not shooting rapid fire but maybe a second between shots. My best 5 shot group the other day was 1 and 3/8 inches from 7 yards. The week before I did a 3 and 1/4 inch 5 shot group from 18 yards. I know that is not great accuracy, but where am I? Poor (hopefully not), average, pretty good, real good? What ever you think, I have improved quite a bit over the last six months and I think dry firing in the evening has helped.

As I said, usually no one else is at the range, but when there were others folks there, I have been worse than some and better than others. But no one else has been around for a while since I have improved. Anyway, let me know where I stand.

Thanks

I didn’t see it mentioned but did you shoot that gun from a rest to see how big those groups are? My group size at least doubles from rested to two handed, and likely doubles again with one handed shooting.

With a good hand load tuned to the gun my 9mms will hold a rested group of about 1” at 10 yards. My Blackhawk and Victory 22 will shoot one hole at that distance with proper ammo. If you’re approaching rested groups during unsupported standing shooting, you’re doing really well.

 

[PzGren]

I have been a pistol instructor in the military and coach in several pistol clubs. When shooters had an average score above 85% they did a little better than the average serious shooter, from 90% on they were good enough to be considered very good and, while not winning the match, they were putting the pressure on the top shooters. A friend was second in the Texas Bullseye match and he is a solid 96 to 97% shooter but had dropped just a couple of points under the match pressure.

A 3 1/4 inch 5 shot group at 18 yards equals about 4 1/2 at 25 yards and that should relate to almost 90%, if the string is well centered but how will a 15 shot group look? And for Bullseye and ISSF the targets have to be engaged shooting with one hand.

Nevertheless, I consider a 5" group at 25 yards that is shot with open sights and offhand as considerably better than average in the rapid fire stage.

 

[wbwanzer]

Thanks for that perspective.

 

[wgp]

Have taken quite a few classes with a former LEO who now works with all levels of shooters. He often scores our targets based on police qualifying standards he has lived with, and has told groups of us that we generally shoot better than plenty of LEOs in qualifying. I recall a session at an indoor range with two local officers in the next two lanes, and I was sort of appalled to see their targets -- spray and pray.
Another thought that may or may not be shared by others, is my belief that what I am concerned about the most is my ability to draw from concealment and put the first one or two rounds right where they should be. I am less worried about the group size of an entire magazine (although I do practice that). The previously-mentioned instructor almost always starts his classes with a command to draw and put one or two well-placed rounds at 7 yards or so.

 

[Bill Raby]

Last time I was at the shooting range a couple guys there seemed pretty happy about 15 inch groups at 10 yards with a scoped AR-15 from a bench rest.They were being safe and having a good time so I would say they did just fine.

 

[DMW1116]

Maybe they’ve been working on it and last week it was 30” at 10 yards?

 

[Hangingrock]

I've shot 25 &50 Yards extensively in my younger days. As this is written I shoot 10 Yards. My Bulls Eye days are a thing of the past. Mostly we shoot Humanoid Shaped targets. So defensive shooting is what we practice. When you are in your seventh decade its a bit different than when you were in your twenties (USMC) of long ago.

 

[sgt127]

I think you are doing well. I’m of the old school. Accuracy is paramount. Within reason.

Get a timer. (PACT, he’s one of my best friends. ) and, start shooting under a little time pressure.

I recently picked up a Sig P365. I can shoot up close, pretty fast. But, I wanted to see how accurate I was. 25 yards, 20 rounds. No time.



A short gun. And 62 year old eyes. With a marginal trigger and a big green dot sight, that’s the best I can do.

I’m good with it.

If you’re shooting 3 1/4” at 18 yards. You are way ahead of average.

 

[wbwanzer]

At 25 yards, I couldn't do better than that.

 

[doubleh]

I've shot 25 &50 Yards extensively in my younger days. As this is written I shoot 10 Yards. My Bulls Eye days are a thing of the past. Mostly we shoot Humanoid Shaped targets. So defensive shooting is what we practice. When you are in your seventh decade its a bit different than when you were in your twenties (USMC) of long ago.

Just wait until you reach the middle of your eighth decade. Then it is really different. None the less I am still happy to be able to get out and shoot. Gotta keep on keeping on.

 

[MrBorland]

that’s the best I can do

That's pretty good considering the conditions, but you actually could do a bit better by using an actual bullseye-type target, since it offers a more precise aim point. Shooting your tightest groups on a USPSA target would work if you can precisely see the point at the top of the dotted "A" at 25 yards. Most of us can't. A six o'clock hold on a black bullseye is much more precise.

As a general side note, they're popular and fun, but for precision, avoid Shoot-NC targets, since they strongly temp one to put their attention on the target, and not the process of executing a good shot. Focus on the process, and the target will take care of itself. Check it after your last shot (and it should tell you what you already know ).

My eyes ain't what they were, either, so when it comes to shooting tiny groups, some kind of optic, such as an Ultradot, would start to look more attractive.

 

[DMW1116]

I have found I tend to want to chase the holes if I can see them. The regular NRA targets at 25 yards with a 22 LR pistol usually means I can’t see them. Shoot N See or Dirty Bird targets and a 38 wadcutter means I can see the impact and may try to aim at it if I’m not careful.

 

[sgt127]

That's pretty good considering the conditions, but you actually could do a bit better by using an actual bullseye-type target, since it offers a more precise aim point. Shooting your tightest groups on a USPSA target would work if you can precisely see the point at the top of the dotted "A" at 25 yards. Most of us can't. A six o'clock hold on a black bullseye is much more precise.

As a general side note, they're popular and fun, but for precision, avoid Shoot-NC targets, since they strongly temp one to put their attention on the target, and not the process of executing a good shot. Focus on the process, and the target will take care of itself. Check it after your last shot (and it should tell you what you already know ).

My eyes ain't what they were, either, so when it comes to shooting tiny groups, some kind of optic, such as an Ultradot, would start to look more attractive.

The big green floating ball front sight, that’s all the rage and, does have some practical utility, is not conducive to accuracy. Give me old school black on black set of sights any time. On a nice 6” Smith revolver or, a tuned 1911.

But, I just put the dot, center mass and (tried) not to flinch, jerk, etc.

 

[MrBorland]

I have found I tend to want to chase the holes if I can see them

Yup - and we often peek, whether we can see the holes or not . Peeking at the target between shots is a real accuracy killer, though. Unfortunately, it can be a tough enough habit to break - even with standard targets which aren't designed to distract you.

 

[PzGren]

Age is definitely a factor in handgun shooting, especially with open sights. The German Shooting Association, founded in 1861 and the world's oldest national shooting association, has different age groups for competitors, Juniors 18 - 20, Shooters 21 - 45, older class 46 -55 and seniors 56+. I have noticed that shooters that were in their 30s to mid 40s perform best. Once presbyopia sets in, the ten ring has become an elusive aiming point and from the 60s to 70s on ageing will have a negative effect on the steadiest of hands.

At the same time, I have known men in their 80s that were feared by the competition when they appeared on the firing line.

 

[JoeHenry]

How much you shoot has a lot to do with accurate rounds on the target. Twenty years ago I had eyes like a grasshopper. In a competition run at a local indoor range, Bass Pro, I could cut a kite string at ten yards with a 1911 45. My eyes won’t let me do that now. And I don’t shoot every week like back then.

 

[.38 Special]

The "chasing bullet holes" thing can be a real factor. One thing I like about the .22 is that at 25 yards - and especially with a black target center - it's essentially impossible to see the holes, so most people stop trying. That can really improve consistency.

Just lately I have been training at a facility which does not use live fire, but rather simulators and some type of invisible (lasers? IR? I honestly don't know) light, coupled with gas-cycled slides. I have always had a terrible time not looking at extreme close-range (two or three yards) targets even during rapid fire, and I notice that when the simulator is set to not mark hits on the target, I can go back to looking at the front sight, which of course results in much better hits.

 

[Smaug]

That’s very good combat style shooting. (But with good light and without stress)

If you want to shoot better, get a good .22 target pistol and shoot at 25 yards. A long sight radius or red dot can help and a great trigger.

In other words, shoot bullseye. You’ll come back to combat style handguns and realize they’re just not capable of top accuracy.

 

[DMW1116]

That’s very good combat style shooting. (But with good light and without stress)

If you want to shoot better, get a good .22 target pistol and shoot at 25 yards. A long sight radius or red dot can help and a great trigger.

In other words, shoot bullseye. You’ll come back to combat style handguns and realize they’re just not capable of top accuracy.

Quoted for truth. I didn’t see too much improvement in my 10 yard groups until I regularly started practicing at 25 yards.

I also strive to shoot my carry and service size pistols as well as my target 22 though I know they’re not really capable of it. I’ll eventually be able to get 10/10 shots in the 10 ring with the target pistol occasionally, but I doubt I’ll ever be able to with my carry pistols.

 

[Smaug]

A couple other things I noted after shooting pistols at 25 yards:

• With the short sight radius and fat front sights of combat pistols, it's hard to discern the difference in sight picture to make a big difference at 25 yards, but it doesn't make a big difference at 7 yards.
• A good trigger makes a HUGE difference at 25 yards, but not much difference at 7 yards.

Then, it clicks in my head: "Yes, but this is a combat pistol, not a target pistol" and I'm back down to reality.

 

[DMW1116]

I don’t know what the consensus is here regarding the channel but I went to 9-hole reviews to see what kind of accuracy I could expect from service style pistols. They had way better shooters than me shooting pistol from a bench/bag getting 3 to 5 inch groups at 25 meters with factory ammo. My best hand loads were just above 3 inches for 4 shots rested at 25 yards. If I get anywhere close to that unsupported (I haven’t) with my 9mm pistols I’ll be thrilled.

 

[MrBorland]

I don’t know what the consensus is here regarding the channel but I went to 9-hole reviews to see what kind of accuracy I could expect from service style pistols. They had way better shooters than me shooting pistol from a bench/bag getting 3 to 5 inch groups at 25 meters with factory ammo. My best hand loads were just above 3 inches for 4 shots rested at 25 yards.

I'm surprised. Service pistols may not win at Camp Perry, but they're generally more accurate than they're given credit for. At the very least, if it's a decent-quality pistol, it ought to shoot a reasonable group, IMO.

I've been a revolver guy, and some years ago, for a bit of a change-up, bought a service-size polymer M&P40. I recall there were those that claimed they (service-sized polymer pistols) couldn't be reasonably accurate, so on my first day at the range with it, bone-stock, and using my own first reloads which I didn't optimize, I shot 3 consecutive standing, unsupported sub-3" 25 yard groups with it. Again, they wouldn't be my choice for a bullseye competition, but IME, they (service-sized polymer pistols) do ok if the shooter's up to the task. A trigger upgrade is a nice upgrade, though.


https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...for-handgun-groups.731296/page-3#post-9171719

 

[DMW1116]

Maybe I was doing it wrong. I’ll have to try again and see what happens. I know watching some ransom rest videos there is quite a difference between that and even rested shooting by a good shooter. I pretty certain all my pistols are mechanically more accurate than I am.

 

[PzGren]

When I was still coaching I had often made shooters sit down and shoot guns from a sandbag when they complained about the POI being off. Most everyone could hit a playing card at 25 meters with a .22 l.r. revolver that was rested and groups of better shooters were usually about one inch with all kind of ammo. I had coached mostly young guys that did not suffer from presbyopia but the biggest detrimental factor in shooting well is the lack of practice and knowledge of the fundamentals.

I myself was reminded of that at the range today with dismal 25 yard results. Range bag is ready for tomorrow!