Where Do You Draw The Line?

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Treo

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I walked in to the bathroom of my local K-Mart this morning after church and almost cause myself some serious proplems. The room was small ( maybe 9X10) and there was a guy in the corner backed up against the sink. He was a big guy and he was just standing there, in front of the sink. The whole set up just looked weird and my first reaction was to reach for my gun. Thankfully I stopped myself but I think dude knew I was reaching for some type of weapon. Right or wrong my creep-o-meter was off the scale so I took care of business and got the Hell out of there.

The whole point of that Mall Ninja story was that I really feel like I over reacted. I read stories here on a semi regular basis in which the (potential) BG hasn't made a single overtly agressive move yet & we (this catagory now includes me) draw. In some of the stories all the other person is doing is walking toward someone .

Some of the situations sound like overreactions to me, but who knows?

So here's my question. What are your rules of engagement. what does it take to really make you think you might need a gun? is there a point short of an actual attack where you feel like drawing a weapon is justified?

I know there's a lot of gray area here but try to be specific.

I rethought my question & I think what I'm asking is, what would have to happen before you fell that you had less to lose pulling a gun than not pulling it?
 
My rules of engagement involve reaching for or producing weapons when I'm at least reasonably certain I'll imminently be using them; I define using them as at least pointing them at someone.

Your scenario, for me, falls short of that.

Caveat: If I can covertly do so, I may reach for a weapon if I'm concerned enough.
 
Only when your life is in danger. That being said I have heard of people who have allowed themselves to be attacked and not fire till they had recieved several blows to the head.

Use the same rules our LEO's do, dont draw the weapon unless you intend to use it.
 
Hindsight being 20/20, you probably should have backed out and notified security. You definitely shouldn't have used the restroom if your creep-o-meter was off the scale.

Was he standing in front of the sink facing the sink, or facing you?

-Sans Authoritas
 
The problem started with your admission that, "I walked in to the bathroom of my local K-Mart."

Increasingly, we just have to be more careful where we allow ourselves to be confined by space.

Look, I'm a biker and I'm careful around elevators, guys who park too close to my truck, bathrooms and hotel hallways.

Yeah, you might win the fight, but we all know this is where these types of predators hang out. One of the aspects of condition yellow is that you never get into a shooting scenario to begin with.
 
I walked in to the bathroom of my local K-Mart this morning after church and almost cause myself some serious proplems. The room was small ( maybe 9X10) and there was a guy in the corner backed up against the sink. He was a big guy and he was just standing there, in front of the sink. The whole set up just looked weird and my first reaction was to reach for my gun. Thankfully I stopped myself but I think dude knew I was reaching for some type of weapon. Right or wrong my creep-o-meter was off the scale so I took care of business and got the Hell out of there.
Click to expand...
I would have to agree, the scenario was weird. Everyone knows real men don't wash their hands after they pee. However, maybe he had just done #2?

Seriously, if you get weirded out walking into a toilet room and seeing a guy standing in front of the sink, you've been watching too many Steven Seagal movies. In the scenario you described, the appropriate response if you didn't like the scene would be to turn around and leave, not throw down on the guy. That's a good way to get yourself arrested for assault.
 
Every encounter is unique so you have to rely on your own danger meter. Sounds like you played it OK. In a situation as described just be sure to not take a wide stance if using the facility.
 
treo said: Right or wrong my creep-o-meter was off the scale so I took care of business and got the Hell out of there.
Click to expand...

If it was that bad, why did you go on like nothing was wrong?


Work on your social skills to gain more information about what's going down. At the point you feel like things are so hinky you're crawling out of your skin . . . unless you have a good reason to stay, leave.
 
Trust your instincts and intuition.

Go piss on a tree out back or against a Dumpster if you have to.

Don't put yourself in what "feels" like a dangerous situation. You folly was to continue to take care of business.

You are at a disadvantage when doing so. A big disadvantage.

Go figure.

Fred

Recommended Reading:

"The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker

Had every friend and family member get one or I got them one to read.

Must read.
 
The guy had his back to the sink & said he was waiting on the toilet, he never made a move toward me. it just felt weird.

To all who are telling me I should have left, in hind sight you're right.

To those of you who are telling me how badly I over reacted I think I mentioned that in the OP.
 
I agree with Ken. If it was THAT bad, why did you stay? :eek:

The best would have been "exit stage left (or right)". i.e. GET OUT of there! If the fit does in fact hit the shan, you have already taken care of one item in the self defense check list: You tried to avoid the confrontation.
 
I myself have the advantage of growing up in NYC with such prior adresses as Harlem, the South Bronx, Jamaica Queens, etc. So my "spidey sense" is pretty much my best friend. One thing I learned long ago is when you get that danger vibe from a guy, say hello. That might sound simple, but I find that looking someone in the eye and saying hello either defuses an initial contact, or lets you know by their reation their intentions. Now had I gotten a negative response from my slutation I would have gotten out of there. Better to let someone think me cowardly, paranoid, or rude; than find myself in an enclosed space, and a vulnerable position.
 
I follow the law. In New Mexico, I must reasonably feel/think that I am in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, period.

I pee before leaving home, keep my eyes and ears open when out and about, avoid anything that doesn't look or feel safe. I don't avoid public washrooms--I try to not need them; when I do, I try to determine who is inside or who might enter behind me BEFORE I enter---choices, choices. There are very few places where a tree or bush is unavailable.

And I practice draw and shoot a lot, a whole LOT. As much or more as I cuss or pray; from every body position I can dream-up.

I fully expect to take the first hit/shot/slash/thrust.

It will either be enough

or

they won't get a second.
 
is there a point short of an actual attack where you feel like drawing a weapon is justified?
Click to expand...

Yes, if I see a weapon in hostile hands.

You cannot draw iron because someone creeps you out. If you go into a room and there's a weird guy there, LEAVE.
 
look, the guy standing facing the sink washing his hands or standing back to the sink adjusting his belt, whatever.

we aren't going to figure out what the guy was doing, legetimate or not.

See, the human brain has been developing to detect danger and to detect group dynamics since long before we could walk upright.

Some deep part of the original poster's brain detected a problem and said ALERT ALERT EXTREME DANGER POTENTIAL Who knows what. It could be a scent, a pheromone, it could be something similar to 'gaydar' or the way abusive men are able to find women who take that kind of *****.

Whatever it was, listen to it. Don't override it, and go finish your business because it would be 'wierd' to walk in and walk back out. Follow those instincts.

Should you have drawn your gun? No, probably not. We do have logical proceessing power that overlays our deep instinct. Here our logical powers of observation would tell us that we are not in immediate danger, not the type of danger a Jury would be able to understand after the fact, so no, drawing is definately out of the question.

But getting the heck out is still option numero uno.
 
Ok let me get this streight......You went to a small restroom and saw a large man standing at the sink and you wanted to go to guns......is that right? I hope we never cross paths Seems a bit over reactive to me.
 
I think the OP already mentioned that in hindsight he overreacted. No need to harp on it. Lesson learned right?

I agree with other posters...I would have left.
 
I agree with the consensus here about both:

-leaving and wee-weeing on someone's tire in the parking lot

and

-drawing would have been premature.


But I will state that I have drawn on an unarmed person. I did not know that they were unarmed at the time, and if the situation were the same again, I would do the same thing again.

I posted on another thread where I was investigating trespassers on our land and came upon a car. When the person got out on this deserted private road in practically dark conditions, he came at me and did so rather fast. He ignored twice my request that he not come any closer. The third time, I put a "!" on that request and he stopped. I still do not know why he was closing distance like that or why he was ignoring my requests to stop.

-- John
 
Sounds like the guy in the bathroom lounging, may have been comtemplating
making some sort'a sexual advance on someone~! Security should have been
notified immediately, who in turn upon further investigation could have/or
should have notified the local PD~? At least a 10-29 (check records for
wanted) would have been run on said subject~! Far too many sexual type
predators are roaming a'round these days; looking for an opportunity to
strike.

No, your situation did not warrant "drawing your weapon"; even tho' your
alarm meter was off the map. Only as a "last resort" in fear of your life
{or the life of a loved one}, should your weapon ever be produced. :scrutiny:
 
Treo, it was a men's bathroom, and he spoke to you? That should've tipped you off right there. : )

He was breaking one of the cardinal rules of the Men's Room: these rules are sacred and inviolable.

-Sans Authoritas
 
in my state, if we're not on our own property we have to exercise the right to retreat, or whatever it is called if in danger. only allowed to shoot if we are being threatened with death or sexual assault, and still are supposed to retreat first. the book i have says that even if we're being pummelled, it doesnt turn into a "life threatening situation" until repeated blows to the head or something. i think it's pretty ridiculous, but that's what the book says about NC law.

that being said....I dont know what my line is, but hopefully i'll also never run into that kind of trouble to find out. I'm thinking I or my wife/child would have to be really threatened (like above poster mentioned, being approached quickly threateningly, or if BG has some weapon or is otherwise menacing), and I try to avoid or defuse most of those types of situations anyway (esp being I've never carried yet).
 
My first thought was the guy might have been a politician from Idaho;) Seriously , urinating in public will get you a fine, throwing down on someone without a clear threat will probably lead to your arrest and revocation of your CWL.
 
Some very good responses.

as for me, I may make use of my gun if my life is in danger, or the life of another is in serious danger. That's been the only time I've ever considered using it.


creepy situation you were in though :eek:
 
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