which C&B revolver?

[justin22885]

so ive decided as an all purpose hunting tool, free of the costs of smokeless powder, brass, or jacketed bullets that i would stick with the pistols designed to do it well... i currently own a pietta 1860 army and in the past have owned a pietta 1858 which i liked more than the colt (better sights, stronger frame, easier takedown, etc)

so im looking for something not so much as a toy, for recreation, or any kind of competition but to be used truly as a tool and for that im looking to get something other than the 1860... my considerations are another 1858 with a 5 1/2" barrel, a walker for raw power, or maybe a dragoon which has more power but is a little bit better designed, more refined

since all of these can take .45 colt cartridge conversions, then surely it should be possible to at least duplicate the 45 colt BP load with them which is a 250 grain FP or SWC bullet on top of 40 grains of FFFg.. would i be able to load either of these revolvers to match 45 colt? and what are the maximum powder capacities for each of these revolvers?

 

[Panzerschwein]

With a Walker or Dragoon yes, you can replicate .45 Colt black powder ballistic with conicals and a full chamber of FFFG powder.

The Walker can hold 60 grains of powder, with a round ball. The Dragoon can hold 50 with same. Both can get 40 grains or more with a 200-250 grain conical.

If you're planning on hunting, I wouldn't use either an 1860 Army or a '58 Remington. These guns were never designed or used for hunting, but for war. Today, you want to ensure a good clean kill on the animal and that the beast does not suffer unnecessarily. Sure, those guns can kill a deer but personally I would want the higher performance from the larger revolvers.

For that, get a Dragoon or Walker. I personally would go with a 3rd model Dragoon as it will have enough power and is a bit lighter and shorter than the Walker and has several improvements to the design. It is indeed an improved Walker and they are extremely nice looking as well.

 

[justin22885]

my one curiosity is this.. if you can fit 40 grains of fffg and a 250 grain bullet into a 45 colt case, and you can in turn fit that 45 colt cartridge into a remington 1858 conversion cylinder, what cant that same charge and bullet be loaded directly into the C&B cylinder?

 

[Panzerschwein]

my one curiosity is this.. if you can fit 40 grains of fffg and a 250 grain bullet into a 45 colt case, and you can in turn fit that 45 colt cartridge into a remington 1858 conversion cylinder, what cant that same charge and bullet be loaded directly into the C&B cylinder?

I don't deal with cartridge conversion so someone else will have to answer that, though I do know that 40 grains is about a max charge in a '58 Remington when loaded with a ball, which generally allows for more powder than a conical.

If you want to hunt with it, I still recommend the Dragoon. You don't want the animal to not die right away.

Also, it's hard if not impossible to get 40 grains of powder into a .45 Colt case. Modern solid head brass has less case capacity than the old balloon-head style which hasn't been made for many many years.

 

[swathdiver]

my one curiosity is this.. if you can fit 40 grains of fffg and a 250 grain bullet into a 45 colt case, and you can in turn fit that 45 colt cartridge into a remington 1858 conversion cylinder, what cant that same charge and bullet be loaded directly into the C&B cylinder?

The cap and ball chamber's capacity is reduced at the rear for the cones. One can get about 35-37 grains of BP under a round ball. I can load 30 grains of BP under a 240 grain Kaido Conical. If I use 25 grains of 4FG powder under a Kaido Conical, it's energy levels will surpass the .45 Long Colt.

One sixgun not mentioned is the Ruger Old Army. Sounds right up your alley to me. One can successfully hunt with Colt and Remington six shooters and cleanly take game as with any other. However, the skill level required is higher.

There are a group of hunters here in Florida that have routinely taken monster hogs for decades and the popularity of using these antiques has soared with the introduction of the Kaido Conicals. These are Elmer Keith inspired boolits optimized for cap and ball revolvers.

 

[ROAshooter]

it is not what many want to hear...but the Ruger Old Army...is "THE" bp revolver....will out last ALL the reproduction Bps made....

 

[justin22885]

another question i have, sort of related, someone may know the answer to it.. but can a .31 caliber pocket revolver match a .22lr?

 

[J-Bar]

it is not what many want to hear...but the Ruger Old Army...is "THE" bp revolver....will out last ALL the reproduction Bps made....

This.

If you are really preparing for a worst case scenario, the additional cost of a Ruger Old Army would be more than justifiable.

 

[Panzerschwein]

it is not what many want to hear...but the Ruger Old Army...is "THE" bp revolver....will out last ALL the reproduction Bps made....

I just can't get into the ROA. It is a gun that has no historical basis aside from looking vaguely like a '58 Remington.

 

[justin22885]

is the cylinder the same length on the ROA as the 1858?

 

[Fingers McGee]

Justin, given the qualifications you have outlined in your OP; the only answer is a Stainless Steel Ruger Old Army with a 7 1/2 inch barrel and adjustable sights with a drop in R&D (Howell) .45 Colt cylinder.

Disclosure - The only ROAs I own are 5 inch fixed sighted blue ones that I have for investment purposes only. My competition and play guns are .36 cal 1861 Navies.

 

[TruthTellers]

is the cylinder the same length on the ROA as the 1858?

Not sure, but it doesn't matter. The ROA is so strong you can put a lot of Triple 7 in and it's gonna run fine. The real advantage to the ROA is the adjustable sights, with those, you'll be able to fix them between your conical loads and, if you get a conversion cylinder, .45 Colt or ACP loads.

And the ROA can be fitted with a quick change doohickey that allows you to pull out the cylinder and put in another nearly as fast as an 1858.

I think you should look at an ROA, it's lighter and smaller than the Dragoons/Walkers, and it's stronger.

 

[Crawdad1]

The ROA should be as its nothing more than a Black Hawk revolver with a loading lever attached. Another thing is they don't make the ROA anymore and there is no spare parts but there are plenty of spare parts for the Remington or Colt.

The problem with the loose powder and ball load you asked about is the loading window on the Remington or Colt is not big enough to load a 250 grain conical into a Remington or Colt but you can buy a reloading press and just have to reload the cylinder when its out of the revolver.

But the Remington or Colt with its conversion cylinder will digest some pretty hardly loads and enough to hunt medium sized game.

 

[TruthTellers]

another question i have, sort of related, someone may know the answer to it.. but can a .31 caliber pocket revolver match a .22lr?

Well, I asked myself the same question months ago and came to the conclusion that it would work just as good as a .22LR, so long as I could hit the target. The issue is using either the 1849 or 1863 and their short sight radius to get good hits out past 10 yards on small to smallish-medium sized game.

Since there's few accessories for the .31 caliber, like molds or the correctly sized balls for the '49 and '63, I decided that it's probably better to go with .36 calibers; there's a lot more support for the .36.

What you'll have to figure out is if you want the '51 Navy, '61 Navy, the .36 cal 1858, or the '62 Pocket Navy/Police. I've decided on the '62 Police because I can get a 6.5" barrel with a good sight radius to improve my accuracy in a small, light package and I can also get a 3.5" barrel for up close and personal confrontations.

The .36 is obviously enough for small game, and it's much better on medium game than a .31 caliber. It's also better against people if the need arose, that's been demonstrated in the 19th Century.

I think if you want to go the '51 or '61 Navy route, you'd be better off getting a convertible .22LR/Mag Ruger Single Six, 22LR only Single Ten, or other .22 DA/SA revolver. Can't speak much to the .36 1858, I imagine it's easier to hit with as the sights are better. Also, with .36 you can convert to .38 Special, but they have to be lead with hollow base. I don't really care relying on hollow base bullets so I don't really care about conversion cylinders for .36 c&b revolvers, but you might and for that it's worth mentioning.

 

[justin22885]

for a small caliber cap and ball, i think id rather have the 31, i really like the style of the remington 1863 and i dont need to have a lot of options for it, but so long as i can get cheap round balls or ball moulds from at least one source then thats all i need, so i think i'll get an 1863 and a ball mould for it, but i will probably also get a .32 S&W conversion cylinder too

for the larger one though i dont really want the ruger old army, as others have said the 1858 is easier to find replacement parts for, seems to shoot the same loads as the old army, and well, i like em, so i think i will go with an 1858 5 1/2 inch

the walker/dragoon are more powerful, but theyre just too large and bulky to fill the role i want

 

[TruthTellers]

for a small caliber cap and ball, i think id rather have the 31, i really like the style of the remington 1863 and i dont need to have a lot of options for it, but so long as i can get cheap round balls or ball moulds from at least one source then thats all i need, so i think i'll get an 1863 and a ball mould for it, but i will probably also get a .32 S&W conversion cylinder too

for the larger one though i dont really want the ruger old army, as others have said the 1858 is easier to find replacement parts for, seems to shoot the same loads as the old army, and well, i like em, so i think i will go with an 1858 5 1/2 inch

the walker/dragoon are more powerful, but theyre just too large and bulky to fill the role i want

There's nothing wrong going with a 1858, it's a superior gun compared to the 1860 and Walker's/Dragoons, but going with the 5.5" barrel you're losing a lot of power that goes a long way against larger game and you won't have the option of adj. sights. Look at the 8" target model, last I saw Cabela's was selling the blued model for $250 and the Stainless for $400.

As for the .31, it's your choice. Be warned tho that the .32 S&W is undersized for the bore and will have diminished accuracy and velocity because of that. Also, the loading lever on the 1863's is susceptible to breaking under hard use. If you can load of the gun, do it and if you are going to get the conversion cylinder, take a look at Duelist1954 on youtube and his Remington Bulldog project. He converted a '58 into a snub nose cartridge gun and took out the loading lever and replaced it by drilling a small, shallow blind hole into the frame/barrel and used a threaded bolt to retain the cylinder pin.

I think that would be a fine bit of gunsmithing on the '63 Pocket seeing as how the loading lever is very iffy. I think with how weak .31/.32 S&W is, you can do it without filing down the frame and you can just keep the loading lever off to the side in a backpack or drawer.

 

[justin22885]

im not concerned with 32S&W having a slightly smaller bullet since all the cartridges would be hand loads, id load for whatever the barrel slugs to, and i think id rather have the compactness of the 5 1/2 inch barrel, my 1860 has an 8 inch and the balance and weight is fine, no real complaints but ive always preferred the 5.5" in the 1858s

 

[TruthTellers]

Alright then. The round ball you'll want to take a look at is the cast .323 dia from Dixiegunworks. If you have trouble pushing those into the cylinder, go down to .321 dia. Do not get Hornady's .310 or .315 balls... to small.

 

[justin22885]

ok then, ill keep that in mind, havented owned a .31 cal revolver before so i dont know most of this

 

[swathdiver]

another question i have, sort of related, someone may know the answer to it.. but can a .31 caliber pocket revolver match a .22lr?

It will exceed the .22 handily if loaded proper like.

 

[justin22885]

cool, then the 31 cal revolver can be the survival pistol im looking for.. basically a dedicated tool for converting small furry animals into food while a 44 cal can handle the bigger stuff

 

[TruthTellers]

There's one more small c&b worth mentioning, although I doubt you'll be interested. The North American Arms 4" Earl:

It's a 5 shot .22 caliber. It's loaded off the gun with a special loader that NAA supplies. The only thing you may not like is that there are no molds for bullets, but the good news is the bullets are very cheap, 8 bucks for 250 bullets and being a .22 it will use very little powder per shot. I think it was something like 2 or 3 grains per chamber.

 

[Crawdad1]

What about this one?

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/blackpowder-revolvers/uberti-1862-police.html

The '62 Police comes in a 4 1/2 inch, a 5 1/2 inch or a 6 1/2 inch barrel and its 36 caliber. Will that fit?

 

[ROAshooter]

"so im looking for something not so much as a toy, for recreation, or any kind of competition but to be used truly as a tool"



"There's one more small c&b worth mentioning, although I doubt you'll be interested. The North American Arms 4" Earl"



just how does this address the OPs requirements?

 

[justin22885]

that north american arms is clearly a copy of the remington, curious though about the differences in cylinder design between it and the remington.. this cylinder is perfectly flat on the back, why? cheaper machining or is there another purpose?