which C&B revolver?

[justin22885]

do you actually load a full cylinder of 4F into your old army or is this just another "i COULD" scenario? because unless its safe to regularly do any of these things then it has no value

 

[grter]

do you actually load a full cylinder of 4F into your old army or is this just another "i COULD" scenario? because unless its safe to regularly do any of these things then it has no value

No I didn't but if you actually read the Old Army instruction manual it tells you you could. It is a well known fact that the Ruger Old Army can handle 4f (ffffg)

No it's not another "I could scenario" I would probably use treso or slix shot nipples with smaller flash holes though. I did read about someone who claimed his Ruger Old Army auto cocked when using 4f (ffffg) but it did not damage the firearm or injure the shooter in any way.

Just make sure to use black powder only or equivalent such as pyrodex for example (there are others) and you should be alright as far as I know.

As a final note always verify any information you get and please post any corrections if you find any.

 

[justin22885]

the one thing i dislike about the old army which probably isnt THAT big of a deal and im sure the screw can be replaced with a small thumb screw or some other mechanism, but has any aftermarket made a solution for rapidly changing cylinders that does NOT remove the entire loading lever?

 

[grter]

Belt Mountain makes Ruger Old Army quick change cylinder setups. I have no experience with the setup but people say it's good.

The slotted basepin retainer lock that you turn with a screwdriver, coin, or your nail is not a simple screw nor is it a screw at all.

It is a specially designed peg with cutouts in it to lock the base pin loading lever assembly in place and it is retained in the hole with a small ball bearing. Although spares pop up and I am not sure if belt mountain has them, don't lose it.

The good news is it does not pop out too easily but it can.

I do not know of any quick change setup that allows you to keep the loading lever and I don't know of any Old Army base pin latches with thumb turns made but this will not solve the problem of the loading lever and rammer falling apart once the base pin is pulled due to it's design. This area is one where the Remington design excells over the Old Army.

The Remington design facilitates quick changes easier (in fact it's very easy in general) than a Ruger Old Army in any configuration right out of the box. The loading lever and plunger remain assembled and the Remington base pin only pulls out far enough to allow the cylinder to be released.
It's a really good design in that is not prone to littering the field with your gun parts like the ruger old army.

The Remington does not need any after market quick change parts since it's design facilitates super quick changes as is.


Beware to keep the base pin in the Remington clean with a few wipes here and there when firing, it is prone to getting gummed up after say 18 to 30 shots but wont if you wipe with something like a ballistol soaked cloth every now and then.

 

[oldfogey4ever]

Deleted by author.

 

[oldfogey4ever]

For the 1858 there are these quick-change setups (yep, you lose the loading lever) like this one (they're also available there in blue,) but don't know any for ROA. 1858 is fast enough in swapping cylinders (this jig makes it even faster, but isn't really needed).

Just can't see spending $1000-$2000 on a bp revolver and the spares to keep it running! If you want smokeless in a bp - style revolver, get a Blackhawk! Be cheaper in the long run!

 

[justin22885]

if theres a ball detent for that screw for the basepin, why didnt they just make it a push-button like their other pistols?

 

[grter]

if theres a ball detent for that screw for the basepin, why didnt they just make it a push-button like their other pistols?

There is another issue despite the sales pitches of some aftermarket cylinder makers Ruger Old Army cylinder are not always the same and some need skilled work to be functional in an Old Army that it was not orginally fit to at the factory.

Ruger Old Army cylinders are not standardized to be interchangable in all Ruger Old Army frames.

If quick changes are important maybe the Remington is the way to go.

Keep in mind however that capped and loaded cylinders are quite dangerous in that there is plenty enough weight in the cylinder that if it were accidently dropped during one of these quick changes and landed pecussion cap/caps toward the floor a dishcharge or multiple chamber discharges can very easily occur.

That would be bad news. I would feel very uncomfortable carrying around loaded and primed cap a ball cylinders on my person since a bump in the wrong place can quickly give me a very bad day.

 

[Crawdad1]

Black powder revolver routinely get torn down for cleaning and because of that mistakes can happen. One mistake with an ROA and your done.

Like I said before their is nothing a ROA can do that a Remington can't do but there are things a Remington can do that a ROA can't do, like shoot in judged events like in the N-SSA.


How much power do you need guy?

.44 Remington, 8 inch 35 grain Trip 7 140 grain, .454 ball 1174 ft/s 428 ft-lbs
.44 Remington, 8 inch 40 grain Trip 7 140 grain, .454 ball 1229 ft/s 470 ft-lbs


Compared to 45 ACP +P commercial Loads.

45 ACP +P 185 grain 475 ft/lbs 1075 ft/sec
45 ACP +P 230 grain 461 ft/lbs 950 ft/sec

 

[justin22885]

its not quick changes i want, just tool-less changes, i guess a small knurled type of screw would do the same thing.. you know, just enough to get the tip of your finger on it

 

[justin22885]

well, i'll keep my eye open for an old army.. if i can find a used one in decent condition and the right configuration at the right price, i'll go that route, but thats a lot of ifs, and i do not want anything other than a 5 1/2 inch barrel and with fixed sights

 

[dickydalton]

Black powder revolver routinely get torn down for cleaning and because of that mistakes can happen. One mistake with an ROA and your done.

Like I said before their is nothing a ROA can do that a Remington can't do but there are things a Remington can do that a ROA can't do, like shoot in judged events like in the N-SSA.


How much power do you need guy?

.44 Remington, 8 inch 35 grain Trip 7 140 grain, .454 ball 1174 ft/s 428 ft-lbs
.44 Remington, 8 inch 40 grain Trip 7 140 grain, .454 ball 1229 ft/s 470 ft-lbs


Compared to 45 ACP +P commercial Loads.

45 ACP +P 185 grain 475 ft/lbs 1075 ft/sec
45 ACP +P 230 grain 461 ft/lbs 950 ft/sec

I have a few of both, conversion cylinders for both too and the ROA is clearly a better gun. Why do you hate the ROA so much?

 

[justin22885]

i hope to start putting together a machine shop this spring or summer, so if anything breaks i will probably have the tools to just make a replacement.. im not too worried about that

the real question is, is an old army 2-3x better than the remington as it seems to cost 2-3 more

 

[Panzerschwein]

i hope to start putting together a machine shop this spring or summer, so if anything breaks i will probably have the tools to just make a replacement.. im not too worried about that

the real question is, is an old army 2-3x better than the remington as it seems to cost 2-3 more

It is probably the better gun in terms of performance yes.

But for half or one third the money, I would take a Remington New Model Army and have it worked over by Goon's Gun Works out of Georgia and probably end up with just as good or better while still at half the price of a Ruger Old Army.

 

[justin22885]

It is probably the better gun in terms of performance yes.

But for half or one third the money, I would take a Remington New Model Army and have it worked over by Goon's Gun Works out of Georgia and probably end up with just as good or better while still at half the price of a Ruger Old Army.

what exactly do they do to the remington?

 

[TruthTellers]

It is probably the better gun in terms of performance yes.

But for half or one third the money, I would take a Remington New Model Army and have it worked over by Goon's Gun Works out of Georgia and probably end up with just as good or better while still at half the price of a Ruger Old Army.

This all depends on what price Justin can find an ROA for. If he can get a blued model, or ANY model for $400, then he would be wise to jump on that. $400 for an ROA beats any Walker or Dragoon for any price.

The only thing about ROA's is I don't believe there are any gated conversions available for them like there are for the 58's.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Justin,
All S.A.s will benefit from proper set-up and tuning (even the ROA). As far as old style actions with flat springs, few people realize that the springs can be individually tuned, which extends the life of the spring and its efficiency. That along with attention to the contact surfaces of the action parts (to correct "wear" patterns) and the addition of a bolt block and an action stop and setting perfect timing, will produce a handgun that will perform indefinitely and go bang every time. The additional parts (bolt block and action stop) prevents the hand from being the "action stop" (leading to an early demise) and throw-by (cylinder over rotation) while protecting the cylinder locking notches. All said and done, it produces an easy handling, perfectly timed revolver, built like a tank!

TruthTellers,
I've never seen anyone have such disdain for such a fine revolver as the Dragoon/Walker pattern !! My two Dragoons are the finest S.A.s I've ever owned and among the finest I've ever handled!! I like my ROA and am a fan but it is a modern design compared to any of the others its "so much better than" !! Anything with 100 yrs R&D should be!!
A '58 is a superior to the Walker/Dragoon? A brass Remington bent while I was loading one! I know it was brass but you wont bend a brass open top - ever!!

One thing you have said that I do agree with is that nobody offers a gated conversion for the ROA. I will add a "yet" to that.
I'll even go one further and say there may be an open top of the Dragoon pattern offered that would best the ROA at the range and in the field.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[TruthTellers]

Dragoon:

I don't have a dislike for the Walker/Dragoon, I just don't like their size/weight compared to the '58s or ROA. THEY'RE TOO BIG! Especially for what Justin is looking for. He wants power, he can get that in an ROA, but when he considers Remington's, he opts for the 5.5" over the, imo, better 8" model. It doesn't make sense.

He's looking for a last ditch gun that's also a good hunting piece, the '58 and ROA are the best choices for him. If he's willing to spend the money on a Walker or Dragoon, then he can just as easily spend a few extra dollars on the ROA, which in time, so long as Ruger never bring them back, will also prove to be a great investment.

So I don't dislike the Dragoon, the Walker maybe a little because of the loading lever, I just don't like them as much as the other c&b revolvers.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Looking at the original post from Justin, he plainly states that his choices would be between a '58 style Remington and a Walker or Dragoon for their power. He also says reproducing .45 C cartridge levels is of interest and that pretty much gets the nod from the Walker/Dragoon patterns. He didn't mention the weight being a problem so for whatever reason, you decided they too big for him. Then you decided he could afford to spend "a little more" money and get a ROA! Wow, you sound like the guy in the Whitehouse!! (Knowing what is best for someone and how much they can spend! Sheesh!)
As far as what his parameters are, the Walker or Dragoon would seem best for his situation.

My first post in this thread was about what my service would do for the Remington (above). The same holds true for any S.A. chosen (including the ROA) as a last ditch situation. A last ditch revolver would need to be mechanically perfect and utterly reliable! All of these can be put in this state.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

ps truthtellers, now I understand, you don't dislike Walkers and Dragoons, you just like all the others better . o Kay.

 

[Crawdad1]

I have a few of both, conversion cylinders for both too and the ROA is clearly a better gun. Why do you hate the ROA so much?

The ROA was developed to make the perfect black powder revolver but, similar to the in line muzzleloading rifles being produced today its not historic or primitive enough for my tastes.

But clearly I've gone over the line so I'll stop commenting any further.

 

[justin22885]

i really have no preference between the ruger, remington, or the dragoon, they all have their tradeoffs and it'll certainly depend on what i can find, if i could actually find a blued 5 1/2 inch fixed sighted ROA when the time comes to make the purchase (i have a couple other things i still need to buy first) then id probably get it, if not, remingtons are always available and inexpensive

 

[justin22885]

well, at least i know i'll be getting a .31 cal remington at some point, so theres that

i dont really want a walker or a dragoon for the same reasons i generally dislike the 1860.. im just not a big fan of the open top, the giant wedge holding it all together, i dont like having the rear sight on the hammer and all of these would be the same on the walker/dragoon, i like a solid frame, machined v-notch rear sight, and the ability to remove the cylinder quickly

i noticed kirst makes a conversion kit for the ROA army, 6-shot 45 colt, but the back plate doesnt appear to have a loading gate.. would a loading gate off an 1858 work? or maybe one off a dragoon or walker perhaps with a little extra fitting?

 

[justin22885]

i found a video showing the work done by goons on one of the revolvers.. the bolt stop would actually eliminate the side to side slop im experiencing with my 1860, the hammer stop prevents over-extension which i think has actually damaged my hand, with that and the other services done to it, i could send in my 1860 and have it completely reworked into a solid revolver.. the hammer stop should also maintain a consistent, accurate sight picture

so having my 1860 reworked by them is still an option, although its been a few years since i had an 1858, and i got this 1860 afterwards i do think i liked the 1858 a little more

anyone know of any guides or tutorials or books i can read to do these things myself?

 

[TruthTellers]

well, at least i know i'll be getting a .31 cal remington at some point, so theres that

i dont really want a walker or a dragoon for the same reasons i generally dislike the 1860.. im just not a big fan of the open top, the giant wedge holding it all together, i dont like having the rear sight on the hammer and all of these would be the same on the walker/dragoon, i like a solid frame, machined v-notch rear sight, and the ability to remove the cylinder quickly

i noticed kirst makes a conversion kit for the ROA army, 6-shot 45 colt, but the back plate doesnt appear to have a loading gate.. would a loading gate off an 1858 work? or maybe one off a dragoon or walker perhaps with a little extra fitting?

You're not still planning on getting a conversion cylinder for it are you? If not, I'd recommend just getting the brass frame model; a little less and can usually be found on auction sites for around $200 or less.

It's not like .32 S&W will be powerful or accurate out of the 1863, I think a .323 ball over 10 grains of 4F is good enough.

 

[justin22885]

im going to get steel frame, heck, i dont even have any brass on my 1860, it even has a steel grip frame

what exactly is the max load on the .31 cal anyway?.. i believe a .323 ball is about 50 grains, how much powder would make up the max load?